14 replies to this topic

[micklx]

Well we all know that red things go faster.......
If you want to retain the original look in the engine bay, you could buy a blue or black 308 motor and fit red motor heads, its easier to find a red 253 and the heads just swap straight over.
As far as I know, Holden V8 heads got better as they went on. The common V8 heads that I know of are:
Pre Pollution red - pre LX and HX
Pollution red - HX HZ LX VB
Blue - VC VH WB these had better porting
Blue B cast (Brock) - Hard to find but worth it, bigger valves and better porting
Blue Holden big valve heads, used on police cars , better than std, not as good as a B cast
Black Holden std heads - similar to blue
Black A9L heads - similar to B cast, used on VK Group A
VL std - has big valves but lower comp for ULP
VL A9L - VL HDT Group A - the best factory carby head but rare

I might have missed a couple but I think that covers the major changes. After that came the efi heads.

[TerrA LX]

Fitment of the motor to the car is the same for red, blue or black.
as far as blocks go they are basically the same and any part from one to the other is interchangable but as below the top end parts do not interchance between red, blue and black,
Top end, heads and inlet manifolds must be matched in regards to the polution port from blue to black and the red inlet manifolds will not go on blue and black heads for this reason. Still following, if so, this polution port in the blue/black heads (or lack of in the red heads) puts the centre bolts in the inlet manifold in different locations.
You can buy a edlebrock performer inlet manifold that suite all three heads that has a choice of three centre holes.
Exhaust is all the same for all three.

EDIT; performance will depend on how much money you throw at it and how good the spannerman is.

Edited by ALX76, 24 January 2008 - 05:16 PM.

[MRLXSS]

I am interested in this question too...

IF you guys had the choice between a Red 308 and a Black 308 (Both Stock) Which would you choose? for Performance reasons that is... (And you didnt care about the emissions etc...)

[FastEHHolden]

Red..any day..a black 304 carb engine in VL was 122kw...the RB30 was 114kw

[Dr Terry]

Red..any day..a black 304 carb engine in VL was 122kw...the RB30 was 114kw

Hi Guys.

I believe this is a common fallacy. You cannot compare Gross kW figures from the 70s, to Net kW figures from the 80s, they are not the same.

If you don't count the various hi-output & HDT engines, the published outputs for stock engines went like this:-

1. HQ - 179 kW (Gross)
2. HJ/LH - 186 kW (Gross)
3. HX/HZ/LX/VB - 161 kW (Gross), 107 kW (Net) (Both official figures)
4. VC/VH/VK - 117 kW (Net) (Single Exhaust)
5. WB/VC/VH/VK - 126 kW (Net) (Dual Exhaust)
6. VL - 122 kW (Net) (Single Exhaust)

There were other small variations with 4.9 etc, too many to list, but you get the idea.

As you can see, if you convert the 126 kW (Blue - Dual Exhaust) using a conversion factor of 1.504 (calculated from the figures in line 3). Then this becomes 189.5 kW Gross. This is more powerful than the best Red (HJ/LH). There was no dual exhaust offered for the unleaded VL engine, but if you fitted one from a VC/VH, (by comparing lines 4 & 5) it would add around 9 kW. Then the 122 kW (Net) would become 131 kW (Net) with dual exhausts & this converts to 197 kW (Gross). This would be (theoretically) the most powerful standard spec 5.0-litre.

These unleaded Black VL engines only had 8.5:1 compression (to suit the low octane fuel), but they were the only standard spec carby 5.0-litre V8s to get L34 valves which more than made up for any losses.

The other thing that can be seen is, while it�s true that the HX/HZ V8s lost power (due to head-flow & cam timing), this loss was all but re-gained with the Blue engines. There isn�t much difference in output between the best Blue & the best Red in real terms. IMHO the Black VL 5.0-litre was marginally better than both.

(I've included the VK Black motor in with the VC/VH Blue specs because they are basically the same. It's the VL Black unleaded motor that differs.)

The other fallacy is that so-called 'pollution gear' is responsible for losses in outright power. If you remove the only 2 added-on devices (the EGR valve & the vacuum advance switching) you would not gain 1 kW) The reason for this is simple. EGR works off manifold vacuum & at full throttle it would not be functioning. The vacuum advance is not affected in top gear either. Losses put down to ADR27A were due to head & manifold flow & retarded cam timing. The new Blue heads & manifold along with altered cam timing fixed these issues.

Dr Terry.

[TerrA LX]

IF you guys had the choice between a Red 308 and a Black 308 (Both Stock) Which would you choose? for Performance reasons that is... (And you didnt care about the emissions etc...)

Prolly black as they are the newest and MAY NOT have as much corrosion in the water jackets.
Black has better heads (EDIT; some autos had smaller valve heads like red) but red had the cam advanced and more comp to suit hence the performance lift. (this can be fixed by shaving the heads and advancing the cam {HQ sprocket}).
I personally setteled on a red block at the right size and price.
IMO don't go more than 040 on the bore if possible and check all the bolt holes threads are good and the bottom of the cylinders where the crank bolts up for signs of previous hand grenade.
The blocks never really changed much until the VN series.

Edited by ALX76, 25 January 2008 - 10:15 AM.

[MRLXSS]

So are there any differences in the bottom end? Or is the only differences Head and Manifold related?

Also to answer 1ARC's question, All he would need to change to fit to a torana would be the sump and pick up yeah? And maybe the location of the Alternator...

[TerrA LX]

Also to answer 1ARC's question, All he would need to change to fit to a torana would be the sump and pick up yeah? And maybe the location of the Alternator...

Yes

[TerrA LX]

Also possibly engine mounts and bear in mind there are two gear box mount hole configurations

[FastEHHolden]

I don't beleive for a second half the figures on that list....its just that by the time you rock around to VL they were telling something closer to the truth.

I'm only going by seat of the pants dyno and I reckon a HQ 308 slaughters a HZ...but i've never been in a VL V8 to know....but I owned a 6 cylinder 5 speed VL...so it would have to have been close.


And the pollution gear (EGR ect) doesn't work at full throttle any way....so I agree it makes no difference.....the crappy approach to cam timing as you said was the major cause.

but my main comparison was the 8 kw difference between 6 and 8 in VL....which must have made it hard to sell V8's at the time...I little like when the XR8 and XR6 were seperated by 1 hp (EF?)

Edited by FastEHHolden, 25 January 2008 - 10:33 AM.

[Dr Terry]

I don't beleive for a second half the figures on that list....its just that by the time you rock around to VL they were telling something closer to the truth.

I'm only going by seat of the pants dyno and I reckon a HQ 308 slaughters a HZ...but i've never been in a VL V8 to know....but I owned a 6 cylinder 5 speed VL...so it would have to have been close.


And the pollution gear (EGR ect) doesn't work at full throttle any way....so I agree it makes no difference.....the crappy approach to cam timing as you said was the major cause.

but my main comparison was the 8 kw difference between 6 and 8 in VL....which must have made it hard to sell V8's at the time...I little like when the XR8 and XR6 were seperated by 1 hp (EF?)

Hi FastEH

What you say is true, but I think the figures do back that up. The HQ is the second best Red, while the HZ (especially with a standard single exhaust) is the worst of the bunch.

The later (Net) figures are closer to the truth, that why the system was changed.

The 8 kW difference between a 6 & a V8 in the VL doesn't tell the whole story. The 6 has only 247 Nm of torque (@ 3600 RPM), while the V8 has 323 Nm @ 3200 RPM. Also the max power in the V8 is at 800 RPM lower than the 6.

The V8 was sold as the 'towing' pack. The V8's torque & power, at say 2000 RPM, would be twice that of the standard 6. The peak torque of the V8 was also 27 Nm more that of the VL turbo 6, which it was marketed against.

Dr Terry.

[FastEHHolden]

QT is HQ...and if you find one that has 11 in front of it..its a Statesman block