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Posted 05 October 2016 - 06:56 PM
Posted 05 October 2016 - 07:37 PM
Well written.
I don't think a lot of people understand the sometimes negative effects that vibration can have on rotating machinery.
I work in the paper industry and we have a lot of large industrial fans that can run up to 3000 RPM and we have to test to see what the natural frequency of the fan assembly is with a bump test before installation.
If the fan runs in this frequency it can do some really detrimental things to the fan and bearings.
If the fan or structure cracks this will then change the natural freq. and can leave you chasing your tail sometimes when trying to diagnose faults.
Posted 05 October 2016 - 08:50 PM
bloody hell O.J...my head hurts!!!..good stuff indeed, from what I can understand.
I read your other post on airflow last time......still does my head in that air can be made to accel and decel. that quickly ...its obviously been going on for years, but still amazing you can pull and push and stop ,start it like that.
Thanks for the insight
Edited by RallyRed, 05 October 2016 - 08:56 PM.
Posted 05 October 2016 - 08:51 PM
Good read.
Was rather upset when I reached the end.
Posted 05 October 2016 - 09:07 PM
....still does my head in that air can be made to accel and decel. that quickly ... amazing you can pull and push and stop ,start it like that.
That's the thing - it isn't made to stop and start that quickly, at least not all at once. Nearly all the particles of air are moving at different speeds and some of them never stop. If that doesn't make sense try this corny analogy: jerking a 20kg crowbar up and down is bloody hard work and you'll raise a sweat pretty quickly. But jerking the end of a 20kg slinky up and down is much easier because you don't have to accel/decel the entire mass at once. And just like the air in the port, not all of the coils of the slinky move at the same speed and some will never stop. Get the speed just right and it'll take hardly any effort at all.
Posted 05 October 2016 - 09:14 PM
Ta mate....excellent explanation.
I had pictured it as a ""solid block"" of air. Even though it is air, I figured it must have some inertia, and thus didnt get how it could be yanked around so easily.
Posted 05 October 2016 - 09:53 PM
Lost me with this bit? "We’ve already had a brief look at airflow, one of the foundations upon which we build horsepower"
I more like a "goes like shit off a shovel" or it doesn't type of guy
Posted 06 October 2016 - 08:25 AM
Wave tuning is for the last 1-2% of HP/TQ to be extracted from an engine, we probably should have a discussion about inertia ram - which if done correctly can achieve a far greater inprovement in cylnder fill than wave tuning.
It's a bit more involved than just having the right effective runner length tho.
Basically it's about developing as much velocity/inertia in the intake charge through the intake runner as possible (without getting into a velocity choke condition) in the early/mid part of the intake cycle - using the time though max piston speed to pull as hard on the intake as you can whilst exposing it to minimal resistance to flow & discharging it into the chamber in an orderly manner.
Once you get something moving it doesn't want to stop, the more velocity it has the greater it's inertia & the longer it'll keep moving.
So when you get to the last part of the intake stroke when piston speed has dropped, then stopped & then started coming back up the bore that inertia built earlier in the intake stroke can keep the charge flowing into the cylinder.
If it's done in conjunction with effective chamber shape to produce good pressure recovery & the highest pressure in the chamber is closer to the piston crown than the head that incoming charge can keep flowing 60,70,80 degress of crankshaft rotation past BDC (depending on engine rpm etc) when the piston is well on it's way back up the bore on the compression stroke.
Done right volumetric efficiency (VE% - the amount of charge in the chamber compared to what it'd hold at atmospheric pressure) can reach levels over 120% - if you want to think of it this way, that's the equivalent of 2-3psi boost into a motor already running at 100%VE. Compared to a street engine running at 90%VE it's more like 4-5psi boost.
Where wave tuning comes into it is at the very start & very end of the intake & exhaust strokes, jamming that last bit of intake charge in as the valve closes, giving that pull on the intake charge as the intake valve opens to get things moving early (through exhaust wave tuning developing a low pressure spike in the chamber through the exhaust valve during overlap).
Posted 06 October 2016 - 08:38 AM
This is a fantastic thread- extremely interesting! this forum is extremely fortunate to have such well informed contributors.
Posted 06 October 2016 - 03:26 PM
Edited by STRAIGHTLINEMICK, 06 October 2016 - 03:30 PM.
Posted 06 October 2016 - 05:43 PM
Two excellent explanations of often misunderstood engine theory and how they can work together.
With this in mind you can imagine how little a 202 garage port and large volume manifold will benefit from this inertia effect.
Posted 06 October 2016 - 05:52 PM
you’re at the back of a bus travelling at 10kmh. You are capable of running at 15kmh. If you run from the back of the bus to the front your absolute speed while you’re running is 10+15=25kmh.
But what if the bus is travelling at the speed of light?
That reminds me of something I saw on TV, did you know the world record for the longest golf putt is 9.2 miles! The putt was made down the isle of the Concorde whilst travelling at 1,270 MPH.
Posted 06 October 2016 - 09:41 PM
But what if the bus is travelling at the speed of light?
I recon if we can work out how to make air and fuel travel at the speed of light, and control it, A lot of our current issues would be gone haha.
Posted 07 October 2016 - 09:36 AM
The above make me ask ---
...Ive often pondered this...............
Force fed applications ( turbos and S/C,) both rely on the fact that the forcing is driven by something connected to engine speed.Thus the volume of airislinked to hat the engine requires at varius rpm.
Being an electrical kind of person,Ive often pondered if it could be done electrically. not sure if step response time for various engine revs Vs. electric fan forced air revs could be achieved? ( lets be honest, if it was easy , cars would be running around with it now).
Thus, what if the fan just ran at the best speed response time it could ( or just ran flat out all the time and bled over any excess pressure), and it just pressurised a big air box that went to the carbies? ( sort of like an accumulator in a hydraulic system).
May run out of pressure for extended WOT stuff, but for everyting else it would provide forced air.
If this is a goer, I'll give 10% profits to the forum admins.to keep the forum going..........not holding my breath (pardon the pun)
Posted 07 October 2016 - 10:25 AM
Posted 07 October 2016 - 11:41 AM
never......but who said its 12v?
Nah, you are correct, its not a goer, otherwise it would have been done.
Having said that, who'd have thought Commodores would have drive by wire electric steering ?
Posted 07 October 2016 - 12:11 PM
never......but who said its 12v?
Nah, you are correct, its not a goer, otherwise it would have been done.
Having said that, who'd have thought Commodores would have drive by wire electric steering ?
Not quite drive by wire yet Col. The steering rack has electric power assistance in leiu of hydraulic assistance. The rack & pinion is still mechanically connected to the steering column shaft.
Posted 07 October 2016 - 12:58 PM
never trust a salesman...I just bought one, and old mate told me there was no shaft ( I havent bothered to look)...doh
Posted 07 October 2016 - 01:08 PM
I can't find it again now but if memory serves there's some clause in the ADRs restricting vehicles without a mechanical steering system to a top speed of 11km/h (or something like that)?
Posted 07 October 2016 - 03:18 PM
Posted 18 October 2016 - 06:16 PM
Hi Oldjohnno, ive read this as well as some of your elsewhere info on exhausts and found you to be informative.
I have a 202 engine (now 208) in a HQ which ill be racing next year for the first time in the HQ class. These motors are basically stock but the exhaust we are free to do as we like. Cam is controlled, slightly upped from stock version by only a whisker. Manifold and carby is stock.
So i would like your opinion if you would on how i should go about this, considering ill be making my own exhaust including the extractors.
Peak power i think should be made at around 4500 rpm and be as flat as possible. Revs can be as low as 3000 rpm and up to 6000 rpm. Im looking to make this system a 6-2-1 setup.
These engines usually produce about 130-140 hp at the wheels so im guessing from your info that 1.5 inch primaries are the go. But what length should i run?
The collectors. Should they be 2 inch dia? Im unsure what is the best length for my rpm?
The collectors im planning on a tapered version from small to large, 2 inch to 2,5 inch exiting into the exhaust pipe. Is this a good idea as i could get megophonitis?
The exhaust will exit just in front of the near side rear wheel. Should i make a large radiused curve in the pipe after the collector to the side of the vehicle or at the collector point?
Is a sharper but earlier curve followed by a long straight pipe to the exit or a more radiused but further down the pipe with less straight sections better in order to direct gasses to the side of the vehicle?
Thanks for your reply in advance if any. All info i can gleen from you will be very appreciated. Any additional info you can tell me in regards to my needs would be a fantastic bonus for me.
Thanks bud, Matt.
Posted 21 October 2016 - 12:13 PM
I've done a LOT of work with the HQ race guys, including a whole bunch of testing with different headers including customs.
What you want is plain old pacemaker 1.5" primary off the shelf pipes, nothing else made significantly more than them, some moved the power band around a little, but not by much.
The old genie headers were also good.
They are so badly head/intake/carb/cam limited that exhaust pulse tuning is pretty much innefective.
Posted 21 October 2016 - 01:57 PM
Posted 21 October 2016 - 06:23 PM
I've done a LOT of work with the HQ race guys, including a whole bunch of testing with different headers including customs.
What you want is plain old pacemaker 1.5" primary off the shelf pipes, nothing else made significantly more than them, some moved the power band around a little, but not by much.
The old genie headers were also good.
They are so badly head/intake/carb/cam limited that exhaust pulse tuning is pretty much innefective.
What about a engine with all the appropriate head work etc etc surely a decent set of pipes would work wonders ?? Pacemaker genie whoever are made too suit standard manifolds so your getting standard gains on basicly a stock motor !!! Ever done any testing on TK383 on something more radical ? Cheers !!
Posted 28 October 2016 - 01:14 PM
Haven't been on the forums for ages and I come across this straight up.
Happy days.
Thanks for all the info guy's.
Great reading,
ps. good to see tk383 on here.
The 12 port head you did for me is still going strong
Edited by Inj gtr202, 28 October 2016 - 01:16 PM.
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