Hey guys, Which 202's came out with steel cranks? Have a feeling some black motors have them, all maybe??? What sort of price would you pay for one that in in need of machining as in a clean up and a grind? This is probably a silly question but how can they be identified as i've never laid eyes on one?
Cheers
Les
202 steel cranks
Started by
mrlctorana
, Nov 07 2006 07:47 PM
21 replies to this topic
#1
mrlctorana
-
- Members
-
- 572 posts
Forum Fixture
- Location:North-West Tassie
- Joined: 17-January 06
Posted 07 November 2006 - 07:47 PM
#2
FastEHHolden
-
- Members
-
- 5,114 posts
Steptoe
- Location:Central Coast NSW
- Joined: 16-November 05
Posted 07 November 2006 - 08:55 PM
Sorry...I'm pretty sure they are all cast...only steel cranks were 3.00 inch stroke red motors before 1968..ie no 202
#3
Dr Terry
-
- Moderators
-
- 3,301 posts
Technical + Numbers Guru + Moderator
- Location:Eastwood (Sydney) NSW
- Joined: 13-November 05
Posted 07 November 2006 - 09:10 PM
Hi Guys.
Yes, that's correct. There is no such item as a forged steel 202 crank. The big myth is that cast cranks are weak. That was probably true in the 50s when the technology to cast a crank out of nodular iron wasn't around. Virtually all Holden motors since 1966 have had cast cranks, without drama.
When the late P. Brock won Bathurst in 1972 in the LJ GTR XU-1 he did it using a cast crank.
I've been playing with cars for over 40 years (over 30 in my own business) & I still have not seen a Holden Red 6 crank fail. When building Holden 6 cylinders, stick with the factory bits you have & forget the forged steel crank myth.
Dr Terry.
Yes, that's correct. There is no such item as a forged steel 202 crank. The big myth is that cast cranks are weak. That was probably true in the 50s when the technology to cast a crank out of nodular iron wasn't around. Virtually all Holden motors since 1966 have had cast cranks, without drama.
When the late P. Brock won Bathurst in 1972 in the LJ GTR XU-1 he did it using a cast crank.
I've been playing with cars for over 40 years (over 30 in my own business) & I still have not seen a Holden Red 6 crank fail. When building Holden 6 cylinders, stick with the factory bits you have & forget the forged steel crank myth.
Dr Terry.
#4
LX2DR
View Garage
-
- Members
-
- 1,763 posts
Forum Fixture
- Name:Paul
- Location:Melbourne
- Joined: 21-November 05
View Garage
Posted 07 November 2006 - 09:38 PM
Only in HP block, 179's in EH's.Sorry...I'm pretty sure they are all cast...only steel cranks were 3.00 inch stroke red motors before 1968..ie no 202
That i'm aware of!
Edited by LX2DR, 07 November 2006 - 09:39 PM.
#5
FastEHHolden
-
- Members
-
- 5,114 posts
Steptoe
- Location:Central Coast NSW
- Joined: 16-November 05
Posted 07 November 2006 - 09:57 PM
all early red motors had the same crank...and HP was only put on early EH blocks to distinguish them from 149 blocks..after a while the realised they were going to make a 161 and 186 so they stopped puting HP on the block and put 179 on instead..but the crank stayed the same in all of them.
From whats been said by Dr Terry and myself...he said 1966..I said 1968...that means you should be able to get a 186 out of a HG and it will have a cast crank..but i haven't seen one..but then again I pretty much only muck around inside 179's and 149's and the odd 202. I am pretty sure the 186S used a steel crank and it stayed in production until the HQ came along.
From whats been said by Dr Terry and myself...he said 1966..I said 1968...that means you should be able to get a 186 out of a HG and it will have a cast crank..but i haven't seen one..but then again I pretty much only muck around inside 179's and 149's and the odd 202. I am pretty sure the 186S used a steel crank and it stayed in production until the HQ came along.
#6
rodomo
-
- Members
-
- 18,018 posts
To advertise here, call 13TORANA
- Name:R - O - B Dammit!
- Location:Way out west of Melbourne Awstraylya
- Joined: 10-December 05
Posted 07 November 2006 - 10:19 PM
Years ago the family car was a HQ, 202, 3 on the column. The crankshaft thrust face was soft and eventually through pushing the clutch (which pushes the crank forward) the thrust face wore to the point that the ends of the flywheel bolts were grinding on the rear main.
#7
mrlctorana
-
- Members
-
- 572 posts
Forum Fixture
- Location:North-West Tassie
- Joined: 17-January 06
Posted 08 November 2006 - 06:57 PM
cheers guys, thanks for the info, very helpful.....
Another Queston, What do you gain if anything from putting a 202 crank into a 186 block, As far as I can see all it does is turn the 186 into a 202 as the bore size is the same so all you are changing is the stroke.
Les
Another Queston, What do you gain if anything from putting a 202 crank into a 186 block, As far as I can see all it does is turn the 186 into a 202 as the bore size is the same so all you are changing is the stroke.
Les
#8
_CHOPPER_
_CHOPPER_
-
- Guests
Posted 08 November 2006 - 07:28 PM
The 202 mains are larger and won't fit unless machined down. 202 pistons will also be needed unless you want the 186 pistons to hit the head HARD. But yes, it will turn it into a 202 CID Holden 6.
#9
FastEHHolden
-
- Members
-
- 5,114 posts
Steptoe
- Location:Central Coast NSW
- Joined: 16-November 05
Posted 08 November 2006 - 08:07 PM
apparently was the go to get around insurance companies and rego authorities...if your car came with a 186 and you wanted a 202..that was the way to get it while still looking like you had the original engine....I have one in a UC I own.
#10
boomfunk
-
- Members
-
- 2,065 posts
Forum Trimmer
- Location:QLD
- Joined: 07-December 05
Posted 08 November 2006 - 08:22 PM
what about blue and black motor cranks...why do some people prefer those over say red motor crank..
#11
_dave720gtr_
_dave720gtr_
-
- Guests
Posted 08 November 2006 - 08:48 PM
because there counter waited , and some say this makes them stronger less flex
#12
FastEHHolden
-
- Members
-
- 5,114 posts
Steptoe
- Location:Central Coast NSW
- Joined: 16-November 05
Posted 08 November 2006 - 08:53 PM
they are held in 7 main bearings..flex isn't an issue...the counter weights make it smother revving as it is balanced better.
#13
_CHOPPER_
_CHOPPER_
-
- Guests
Posted 08 November 2006 - 09:20 PM
If my memory serves me correctly, Naismith Engineering in Bayswater VIC made billet steel 202 cranks.
#14
bryanw
-
- Members
-
- 294 posts
Forum Fan
- Location:mildura
- Joined: 04-July 06
Posted 09 November 2006 - 11:23 PM
high reving 202 turbo motors sure suffered from crank flex, wasn't a problem with well worked NA engines, hydrolic lifters were though. nothing like setting solids with the engine running.
this was before black cranks found there way into the rebuild. dont know if it solved it
would it be best to start with the black motor?
this was before black cranks found there way into the rebuild. dont know if it solved it
would it be best to start with the black motor?
#15
_dave720gtr_
_dave720gtr_
-
- Guests
Posted 10 November 2006 - 12:07 AM
black blue any will do! i used a low k black engine 3.3 just got arp studs and 360 mains guirdle
that fixed any flex that may of or not happend at 20psi +7000+rpm
that fixed any flex that may of or not happend at 20psi +7000+rpm
#16
rodomo
-
- Members
-
- 18,018 posts
To advertise here, call 13TORANA
- Name:R - O - B Dammit!
- Location:Way out west of Melbourne Awstraylya
- Joined: 10-December 05
Posted 10 November 2006 - 05:17 AM
Stedzlc had a problem at Winton in July with a rear main oil leak. I'm pretty sure it was something to do with blue/black crank in a red block and the wrong seal. Maybe PM him to see what the issue was.
#17
lakeside
-
- Members
-
- 2,703 posts
Lotsa Posts!
- Name:Col
- Location:melb
- Car:LC SBC
- Joined: 07-November 05
Posted 12 November 2006 - 09:52 AM
the would start having problems with flywheel and blocks at 7000+prm. I lost near sot a Y/T flywheel with 7/16 12point ar . Spat all the heads of the bolts off, Gearbox was holding it in there. Was spinning pass 8500+ rpm.black blue any will do! i used a low k black engine 3.3 just got arp studs and 360 mains guirdle
that fixed any flex that may of or not happend at 20psi +7000+rpm
If you go to Crankshaft rebuilder, they have blue cranks for about $1500, you won't break one of there cranks.
#18
_dave720gtr_
_dave720gtr_
-
- Guests
Posted 12 November 2006 - 11:55 AM
Lakesid i am using a powerglide no worries with flywheel, its flex plate came
dowwled to the crank standed on black cranks, ARP bolts will be used to.
i have never seen a holden 6 break a crank in harlf .an less it was ground out of phase ,
Another point. flex in the crank is not up and down. its a twisting flex
that effects red cranks a hi rpm. blue black dont twist as much but are heavier.
but u can remove lots of meat from the counter weights down to a knife edge.
dowwled to the crank standed on black cranks, ARP bolts will be used to.
i have never seen a holden 6 break a crank in harlf .an less it was ground out of phase ,
Another point. flex in the crank is not up and down. its a twisting flex
that effects red cranks a hi rpm. blue black dont twist as much but are heavier.
but u can remove lots of meat from the counter weights down to a knife edge.
#19
_82911_
_82911_
-
- Guests
Posted 12 November 2006 - 01:01 PM
As an aside to the talk of crank flex and indexing(phasing) I know of a certain holden 6 in a certain blown dragster that has so much crank flex that it actually runs with different cam timing in the 2 rear cylinders in an attempt to even things out at race RPM when under full load! 
Now that's some serious flex!
This combo makes better than 600HP measured....So is at 3HP/cube, it doesn't break cranks so you are fine in that regard.. But it sure as hell consumes an awfull lot of blocks.......
Cheers greg..
Now that's some serious flex!
This combo makes better than 600HP measured....So is at 3HP/cube, it doesn't break cranks so you are fine in that regard.. But it sure as hell consumes an awfull lot of blocks.......
Cheers greg..
#20
_dave720gtr_
_dave720gtr_
-
- Guests
Posted 12 November 2006 - 10:22 PM
greg do you know how much psi or bar the whipple is pushing on that dragster?
must be up round 35psi or more to be eating blocks . my friends been running up to 30,
Turbo intercooled fuel injected ,has never cracked a block but has melted pistons
warped his Y/T alloy head and soften the alloy .had to send it to melbourn to have it re heat treated and straightened. This happened when water pipe fitting blew out
on a full boost run. It over heated istantly and the HQ race piston became ONE with the bore!
must be up round 35psi or more to be eating blocks . my friends been running up to 30,
Turbo intercooled fuel injected ,has never cracked a block but has melted pistons
warped his Y/T alloy head and soften the alloy .had to send it to melbourn to have it re heat treated and straightened. This happened when water pipe fitting blew out
on a full boost run. It over heated istantly and the HQ race piston became ONE with the bore!
#21
_82911_
_82911_
-
- Guests
Posted 13 November 2006 - 07:21 AM
45 psi @7000rpm on metho...
another aside....
we regularly kill blocks in the group N Xu-1's but it is mainly due to harmonic vibration rather than crank flex or combustion pressure.
I think you will find that if you start turning/boosting it hard enough, often enough you will have the odd failure..
Thy usually go along the side about an inch down from the deck on the exhaust side.
BTW: the girdle does appear to help extend the life of the block.
Cheers Greg..
another aside....
we regularly kill blocks in the group N Xu-1's but it is mainly due to harmonic vibration rather than crank flex or combustion pressure.
I think you will find that if you start turning/boosting it hard enough, often enough you will have the odd failure..
Thy usually go along the side about an inch down from the deck on the exhaust side.
BTW: the girdle does appear to help extend the life of the block.
Cheers Greg..
#22
_dave720gtr_
_dave720gtr_
-
- Guests
Posted 13 November 2006 - 09:18 AM
Thanks greg as always a wealth of info. 
45psi 4 bar sh#t
I see he sells them heads jacketed or solid with out water passagers
I wounder if his blocks are semi grout filled .
hum i think i will run no more then 20 at the strip and 10./15 on the street.
oh and that F.I.Turbo engine in my friends LC as made over 470hp
45psi 4 bar sh#t I see he sells them heads jacketed or solid with out water passagers
I wounder if his blocks are semi grout filled .
hum i think i will run no more then 20 at the strip and 10./15 on the street.
oh and that F.I.Turbo engine in my friends LC as made over 470hp
Edited by dave720gtr, 13 November 2006 - 09:24 AM.
1 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users
