Hi Guys, I have just been informed that the Group C & A race 3 from Sandown in November last year will be broadcast on Channel 31 Tues 16th at 9.30 pm along wit 2 F5000 races. Should be awsome.
Group C's & A's on TV again
Started by
_GroupC_
, Jan 12 2007 10:47 PM
61 replies to this topic
#2
_rorym_
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Posted 12 January 2007 - 11:36 PM
Eventually CAMS will work out that no one is taking out there G Cs as they are too valuable and allow replicas to play.. The day is nigh.
R
R
#3
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Posted 12 January 2007 - 11:39 PM
GrpC is a top formula that allows (not atm, see above) even the average punter to have a go.
Edited by ALX76, 12 January 2007 - 11:40 PM.
#4
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Posted 12 January 2007 - 11:57 PM
Like ....I have Bob Morris' hatch and I am going to run it around against 30 other cars (which they do at the moment)just because CAMS says you cant enter this race unless it is a genuine log booked Group C????...RIGHT!!!...I know they do it now...but with prices going through the roof..it is going to end VERY quickly!.(If you owned it would you rub guards with 30 others just to keep CAMS happy?..They have lost all control of most forms of motorsport including V8 Supercars already).Watch this space for a HUGE back flip..and..replicas will get the nod in the not too distant future..and then the real fun will begin!! 
The Biante boys are going their own way doing there own thing already.
R
The Biante boys are going their own way doing there own thing already.R
Edited by rorym, 13 January 2007 - 12:10 AM.
#5
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Posted 13 January 2007 - 12:45 AM
Why not just make your own class for replicas you only need 12 competetors to create your own class. Then all you need to do is promote it too the tracks to get races. The better you are at promotion the better your clas will take off. And if it was something like replicas then contact speedweek about it and they would put it on tv for better coverage you watch your class grow then.
We did this when i was in tassie (im back here again) bout 10 years ago we wanted to have a diffferent class because there was about 6 of us who constantly flogged our opponents and it got to teh stage where we were bored. so we set about starting our own class. We intriduced the theme from the mainland of modified production where you could put any type of engine into any type of car as long as it was n/a via carby or 3 lol you were fine.
Myself i ran a 265 hemi worked of its nut with tripple su's pushing about 100 mph in second gear coming into the turns(speedway it was) there blokes with 253's in gemini's and was one bloke with a j port rotary in a mini.
what im getting at is if the interest is there then it isnt hard to get a class running you just have to know how to interperet the rules to get what you want.
cheers
ian
P.s. i do appologise i have a tendency to have long reply's i think if you are going to answer a question if it is worth answering proeprly then do it properly.
We did this when i was in tassie (im back here again) bout 10 years ago we wanted to have a diffferent class because there was about 6 of us who constantly flogged our opponents and it got to teh stage where we were bored. so we set about starting our own class. We intriduced the theme from the mainland of modified production where you could put any type of engine into any type of car as long as it was n/a via carby or 3 lol you were fine.
Myself i ran a 265 hemi worked of its nut with tripple su's pushing about 100 mph in second gear coming into the turns(speedway it was) there blokes with 253's in gemini's and was one bloke with a j port rotary in a mini.
what im getting at is if the interest is there then it isnt hard to get a class running you just have to know how to interperet the rules to get what you want.
cheers
ian
P.s. i do appologise i have a tendency to have long reply's i think if you are going to answer a question if it is worth answering proeprly then do it properly.
#6
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Posted 13 January 2007 - 01:21 AM
farkit ill be it that, even if its just a shitter to get things off the ground.Why not just make your own class for replicas you only need 12 competetors to create your own class. Then all you need to do is promote it too the tracks to get races. The better you are at promotion the better your clas will take off. And if it was something like replicas then contact speedweek about it and they would put it on tv for better coverage you watch your class grow then.
#7
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Posted 13 January 2007 - 08:59 AM
Why not just make your own class for replicas you only need 12 competitors to create your own class. Then all you need to do is promote it too the tracks to get races. The better you are at promotion the better your class will take off. And if it was something like replicas then contact speedweek about it and they would put it on tv for better coverage you watch your class grow then.
Don't get me wrong I love the idea... but 'AVE' the mob that film stuff for SBS are expensive.. well they are now... to give you an idea... IPRA NSW has on average of 40 to 60 competitors turn up at each round of the NSW State series.. so big in fact we have separated into 2 fields, over and under 2 Litre. Now we had TV coverage in 2005.. and they put the prices up and we couldn't afford to do it again for 2006/2007... and we have the biggest Club turn up of cars of any "racing" club in NSW... and we cant afford it... so 12 G C cars wont have the dollars to get it on TV...
But I agree G C (and A) Cars are worth a packet these days and I hope they open it up to replica's... its like no sponsors logos on Group N.. what a joke... move on...
#8
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Posted 13 January 2007 - 09:18 AM
I know personally that the Bob morris hatch wont be doing the rounds this year. I also know they would love to be able to make a replica to keep racing.
#9
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Posted 13 January 2007 - 09:38 AM
While I agree in theory about the comments about making group C open to replicas, it sure would make it more practical and attract more interest.
I get a real kick out of knowing they are the genuine cars from the 70's and 80's. It adds to the spectacle in my opinion.
Maybe the genuine cars could still do a National series for those with the cash and the replicas could run at state level as well as a National series.
One last point, if this happens, what rules do you run? Does a L34 rep have to run a banjo diff ? Is an XB falcon allowed to run roller rockers ? It could turn into a class made up mainly of VK and XE models because they will be the cheapest , easiest cars to get going faster with more reliability.
I get a real kick out of knowing they are the genuine cars from the 70's and 80's. It adds to the spectacle in my opinion.
Maybe the genuine cars could still do a National series for those with the cash and the replicas could run at state level as well as a National series.
One last point, if this happens, what rules do you run? Does a L34 rep have to run a banjo diff ? Is an XB falcon allowed to run roller rockers ? It could turn into a class made up mainly of VK and XE models because they will be the cheapest , easiest cars to get going faster with more reliability.
#10
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Posted 15 January 2007 - 07:26 AM
With Bartletts Martini A9X for sale at $325k at the moment plus others..this class is doomed. The $ will talk loud enough to get them all parked pretty soon.
R
R
#11
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Posted 15 January 2007 - 10:56 AM
I'd like to see replicas get a go
Then we can all theoretically go play together
But
They must be regulated to the same or similar rules to GpC to keep them roughly competative
There will always be big budget "stubbers" who will go out and crush anyone with sheer dollars if its not regulated properly..... and sometimes even if it is
Who says who gets what livery ? What if I in Perth want to run the same livery as Rory in QLD...... but when theres a national meeting and both cars are there whos gets the gurnsey ?
Then we can all theoretically go play together
But
They must be regulated to the same or similar rules to GpC to keep them roughly competative
There will always be big budget "stubbers" who will go out and crush anyone with sheer dollars if its not regulated properly..... and sometimes even if it is
Who says who gets what livery ? What if I in Perth want to run the same livery as Rory in QLD...... but when theres a national meeting and both cars are there whos gets the gurnsey ?
#12
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Posted 15 January 2007 - 02:44 PM
it would have to be a case of hdt car number 05 thru to 015 025 035 045 .......
#13
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Posted 15 January 2007 - 03:09 PM
I think running a replica class would be a great idea, certainly running the cars in groups according to the era they were produced would help.... The problem they have at the moment is that there just isnt enought ppl willing to race the original cars, the numbers are low, classes are combined.... So the faster group A cars are at the front.
BUT if ppl were allowed to build replicas, I'm sure there would be no problem with grid numbers, there could be a race for each class (C an A). The racing would be better because your not so worried about destroying a piece of history..... Crowds love it because the cars look instantly recognisable....
There will always be the guys with more money... but thats part of racing.... as a lower budger racer, there is nothing better than beating someone who has spent more than you.... Just throwing cash at something dosnt necc make you a winner....(although it does help!)
Obviously there will be a few things that need sorting, like the livery for each car and who get to run what etc.... Just remember that most teams had different a livery for their car for each season so you could have 3 cars running a team replica of say 3 different seasons... I wouldnt class them as problems that cant be resolved...
cheers,
Sam
BUT if ppl were allowed to build replicas, I'm sure there would be no problem with grid numbers, there could be a race for each class (C an A). The racing would be better because your not so worried about destroying a piece of history..... Crowds love it because the cars look instantly recognisable....
There will always be the guys with more money... but thats part of racing.... as a lower budger racer, there is nothing better than beating someone who has spent more than you.... Just throwing cash at something dosnt necc make you a winner....(although it does help!)
Obviously there will be a few things that need sorting, like the livery for each car and who get to run what etc.... Just remember that most teams had different a livery for their car for each season so you could have 3 cars running a team replica of say 3 different seasons... I wouldnt class them as problems that cant be resolved...
cheers,
Sam
#14
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Posted 17 January 2007 - 01:34 PM
This topic is a great one fro debate and many different opions on what and how it should happen. Im with the others in beliving that the time is getting close when most of the cars will be parked as the value of the cars is high.
Replicas would solve this problem and would not detract from the spectical one bit. The only problem is how to prevent 10 replicas of Brocks hatch fronting for a race. I have a bit of a thought on this. Only one variant of each car be allowed. If a same car raced under different colours/sponsors than all vairients should be allowed. Some one should be responsable for the log of cars, idealy the Group C association or CAMS if need be (I hear everyone saying nooooooo) just and idea remember. Owners of origonal Group C cars have first rights to make and race a replica of that car. All cars must be registered on the register held by lets ay it's the Group C association every year. Intention to build replicas must lodged with the Group C association and approved to ensure doulbe ups of the same car don't happen. Any one whishing to build a replica of an origional that exists and is not being raced has the right to do so but a fee must be payed to the origional car owner (this feeis set by the Croup C association and is a once off until the origonal owner decide to race his colours again, fee must than be refunded). If a replica is oked by the Group C association and the fee is payed than the replica owner has the right to run the car for the full season (no change of mind mid season). Once the season is finished an origonal owner has the right to nominate by a set date of his intension to race under his colours the next season or last seasons replica has the rights again (these rights can't be trasfered or sold to any car builder.
I try and summerise.
The Group C association control the register of cars.
Origional car owners have the first rights to run a replica looking the sama as their car. (cut off dates must be involved)
Replica cars must be applied for before building. First in best dressed by recieved application dates.
If a replica is built and approved be the Group C association by a non origional car owner than a set fee (set by the Group C assiciation) is payed to the owner of the original car (one off fee).
Original car owners have the rights to nominate by a cut off date at the end of a season that they whish to run their clours next season (fee payed to them is than refunded back).
Non original owners must notify the Group C association of their intentention to race again the following year by a set date and is automaticly approved provided the origional car owner has not resistered his intent to race his colours. Failure to do so results in non refundability of the fee payed to an origional car owner.
For cars that no longer exist aplications for replica are logged with the Group C association an approved if authentisity of replication can be proved.
The Group C association has the right to approve or disaprove the racing of replicas.
Rights to colors can not be bought, sold or traded.
All rights to colours must go through the Group C register
As far as the mechanical's go. What ever was allowed in the day uinder the rules is allowed under any replica. If your building a replica of an L34 you can't have A9X mechanicals. For example if you build a Grice replica you can have the mechanicals that the HDT cars ran even if they were different.
The only stumbling block is the numbers painted on the cars. As trasponders are becoming the normal it my not be that important allou manualy lap counting back up should still be happening so may cause some problems. Leave the cars as they appeared and put a small number on the roof as is done in speedway could over come this. Speedway have managed with this system for years.
I'm sure there are other points but thats about the guts of it.
Replicas would solve this problem and would not detract from the spectical one bit. The only problem is how to prevent 10 replicas of Brocks hatch fronting for a race. I have a bit of a thought on this. Only one variant of each car be allowed. If a same car raced under different colours/sponsors than all vairients should be allowed. Some one should be responsable for the log of cars, idealy the Group C association or CAMS if need be (I hear everyone saying nooooooo) just and idea remember. Owners of origonal Group C cars have first rights to make and race a replica of that car. All cars must be registered on the register held by lets ay it's the Group C association every year. Intention to build replicas must lodged with the Group C association and approved to ensure doulbe ups of the same car don't happen. Any one whishing to build a replica of an origional that exists and is not being raced has the right to do so but a fee must be payed to the origional car owner (this feeis set by the Croup C association and is a once off until the origonal owner decide to race his colours again, fee must than be refunded). If a replica is oked by the Group C association and the fee is payed than the replica owner has the right to run the car for the full season (no change of mind mid season). Once the season is finished an origonal owner has the right to nominate by a set date of his intension to race under his colours the next season or last seasons replica has the rights again (these rights can't be trasfered or sold to any car builder.
I try and summerise.
The Group C association control the register of cars.
Origional car owners have the first rights to run a replica looking the sama as their car. (cut off dates must be involved)
Replica cars must be applied for before building. First in best dressed by recieved application dates.
If a replica is built and approved be the Group C association by a non origional car owner than a set fee (set by the Group C assiciation) is payed to the owner of the original car (one off fee).
Original car owners have the rights to nominate by a cut off date at the end of a season that they whish to run their clours next season (fee payed to them is than refunded back).
Non original owners must notify the Group C association of their intentention to race again the following year by a set date and is automaticly approved provided the origional car owner has not resistered his intent to race his colours. Failure to do so results in non refundability of the fee payed to an origional car owner.
For cars that no longer exist aplications for replica are logged with the Group C association an approved if authentisity of replication can be proved.
The Group C association has the right to approve or disaprove the racing of replicas.
Rights to colors can not be bought, sold or traded.
All rights to colours must go through the Group C register
As far as the mechanical's go. What ever was allowed in the day uinder the rules is allowed under any replica. If your building a replica of an L34 you can't have A9X mechanicals. For example if you build a Grice replica you can have the mechanicals that the HDT cars ran even if they were different.
The only stumbling block is the numbers painted on the cars. As trasponders are becoming the normal it my not be that important allou manualy lap counting back up should still be happening so may cause some problems. Leave the cars as they appeared and put a small number on the roof as is done in speedway could over come this. Speedway have managed with this system for years.
I'm sure there are other points but thats about the guts of it.
#15
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Posted 17 January 2007 - 05:49 PM
Hmmm...So much for the uncomplicated version.
Who sets the fee?..So I pay someone to race my own car I built up?..
Yell out loud now...Welcome Mr Stubber!,,There goes the class...
Not bagging it..just must be a simpler solution.
If its seen as a replica class..we are assuming all the originals have been parked due to massive rising values...why would I pay someone to race a MHDT replica?..If I register mine first...that car should be gone off the available buildable replicas....Just my 2c worth.
Worth more comment...but if the Group C Assoc gets involved in setting/running fees..kiss me goodbye. Have no problem with them running the replica register though..might be a small admin fee per year per car...can live with that.
R
Who sets the fee?..So I pay someone to race my own car I built up?..
Yell out loud now...Welcome Mr Stubber!,,There goes the class...
Not bagging it..just must be a simpler solution.
If its seen as a replica class..we are assuming all the originals have been parked due to massive rising values...why would I pay someone to race a MHDT replica?..If I register mine first...that car should be gone off the available buildable replicas....Just my 2c worth.
Worth more comment...but if the Group C Assoc gets involved in setting/running fees..kiss me goodbye. Have no problem with them running the replica register though..might be a small admin fee per year per car...can live with that.
R
Edited by rorym, 17 January 2007 - 05:50 PM.
#16
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Posted 17 January 2007 - 06:52 PM
Interesting thread. I haven't read every single line here but I certainly get the gist of what is going on. I think there are good arguments for and against for letting other cars enter. If I personally had a group C cr, I wouldn't care if I came last in every race, I'd still come out smiling. The class was developed for original cars, and thats just the way it is. There are other classes to race cars in, but maybe a replica class would be good, however if you based it on the Group C rules, then, your car would have to be the same as the original in every way anyway right? Lets say they do allow replicas to race with Group C, then they would have to be outstanding replicas correct down to the nuts and bolts etc the same as the real thing. Another issue would be that you shouldn't be able to build and race (in group C) a car thats already racing. ie; I can't go and make a copy of the Morris 79 car to race as the real deal is out there racing. Thats just my opinion. You also have an interesting situation with something like the John Goss XA coupe. Now if ever a car was going to be allowed, this should be one IMHO. Built from a spare shell and most of the left over parts from the original car and by the original driver, and I believe it's had it's CAM's log book signed off by Harry Firth? This was something I was told so I could be wrong......
#17
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Posted 17 January 2007 - 07:47 PM
REDS sort of right..When Appendix J combined with Historics the Na/Nb/Nc classes were going to be the same...then in came ventilated discs.. Volvo calipers and all...ruined it I personally think...as well as allowing Camaros, Mustangs etc etc.. I want to see the class as it was..series production..XY GTHOs and LJ 202 XU1s with std brakes..E49 Chargers...send the Yank stuff off to Improved Production class like where they were in 1970... Group C the same..small upgrades may be allowed..rear discs for safety..late model Ford heads and VN as well..mainly for availability more than anything..(tried to get a set of 4V heads from a 71 Ford?).iron only..no alloy ones..other than that..pretty much as they ran. I agree with RED...If the owner of the original car is going to race it..so be it..that one is off the register for replicas..until he officially retires it...on the subject of same car..over 3 years in different colours..ala Grice..Roadways/Chickadee etc..see no problem with 3 same model cars in the field with 3 different period colours and signage...will actually add more cars to the field.
R
R
#18
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Posted 17 January 2007 - 08:08 PM
I have been reading some of the posts, and found it interesting that some people feel that with the increase in value of cars in these classes that people will be reluctent to race them, even at the prices that Group C and Group A cars are changing hands they are still cheap in comparision to other historic classes, some of the vehicles that i have seen race at Historic events are worth millions of dollars, also have a think about the money that some of the big boy's in the biante series have spent building cars, a lot of the front running cars have cost $100,s of thousands to build, so i dont believe that the increase in value
in Group C and A cars will stop them from coming out it may just change the type of people that own them as the guy's who purchased them cheap cash in on the increase in value.
in Group C and A cars will stop them from coming out it may just change the type of people that own them as the guy's who purchased them cheap cash in on the increase in value.
#19
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Posted 17 January 2007 - 09:05 PM
So you are saying the current 05 MDHT Brock Commodore thats up for $500k will get bought then the guy will swap paint in a Group C race?..ditto the Bartlett $325K A9X?..You will have to keep typing for a while yet to convince me of that. I am talking about a replica racing series done in the same vein as the current NC races where the guys go a fair bit harder than any of the Group C /A races out there now, if it gets bent..you get another body shell...bit hard with a $500k icon. The Stubber stuff is totally different..there is not one genuine "historic" race car out there..it isnt OZ racing "history" getting slammed and he can get another body at the drop of a hat. If it was Bob Janes ZL1 he was driving I am sure there would be a lot more caution used with the vehicle.
I would love Chris Bowden to jump in here with his opinion about racing..serious racing ..the family jewels out there in an out and out dogfight...doubt it would happen with the 79 05 A9X hatch...not in my lifetime anyway.
R
I would love Chris Bowden to jump in here with his opinion about racing..serious racing ..the family jewels out there in an out and out dogfight...doubt it would happen with the 79 05 A9X hatch...not in my lifetime anyway.
R
Edited by rorym, 17 January 2007 - 09:07 PM.
#20
micklx
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Posted 17 January 2007 - 09:15 PM
Lots of interesting opinions here.
If it wasn't for the biante series and the Group C/A class, all those old race cars would probably be sitting in sheds worth next to nothing, now all of a sudden they are worth too much to race ???
If it wasn't for the biante series and the Group C/A class, all those old race cars would probably be sitting in sheds worth next to nothing, now all of a sudden they are worth too much to race ???
#21
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Posted 17 January 2007 - 09:26 PM
John French XY GTHO...$980K??...I reckon that is too much to race...Yep!
R
R
#22
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Posted 17 January 2007 - 09:32 PM
Big can of worms .....
If the owners of genuine log book cars are to lease out the "franchise" on their car to someone to race a replica of the car, it will just end up like the ute series where the rich "fat cats" make money off the "minows" who want to race.
Wait and see, my bet is franchises will start at $100K, and why wouldn't they? That's how much a ticket is in the utes...
And for the record, 5th category Nc regs are based solely on Improved production regulations from the era, NOT series production.
On a personal note would welcome an affordable entry into Group C/A racing, but I think that boat has already sailed.
Cheers Greg..
If the owners of genuine log book cars are to lease out the "franchise" on their car to someone to race a replica of the car, it will just end up like the ute series where the rich "fat cats" make money off the "minows" who want to race.
Wait and see, my bet is franchises will start at $100K, and why wouldn't they? That's how much a ticket is in the utes...
And for the record, 5th category Nc regs are based solely on Improved production regulations from the era, NOT series production.
On a personal note would welcome an affordable entry into Group C/A racing, but I think that boat has already sailed.
Cheers Greg..
#23
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Posted 17 January 2007 - 09:47 PM
I thought Group Nc was a combination of Series Production and Improved Production rules ????
Want a cheap entry into Group C ? Wait until you are allowed to run a replica, build a replice of Billy Bloggs VK who came 145th at Bathurst in 1984 and build it to HDT specs. you won't have to pay anyone to use their colors and your VK will outhandle any Torana as well as being allowed more mechanical freedoms.
Want a cheap entry into Group C ? Wait until you are allowed to run a replica, build a replice of Billy Bloggs VK who came 145th at Bathurst in 1984 and build it to HDT specs. you won't have to pay anyone to use their colors and your VK will outhandle any Torana as well as being allowed more mechanical freedoms.
#24
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Posted 17 January 2007 - 10:49 PM
Agree with Greg...Hence I think it should be.."Replica Group C" Catagory..the $ will kill you otherwise..The NC stuff is a classic..SHOULD have stayed at Appendix J..Series Production but over thime..he is right...ended up more like Improved Prod when Moffats Mustang and Janes Camaro ran....no resembalence to series production except they are the same body shells. Keep the yank stuff out..V8 Supers proves people want to see Aussie Muscle cars...Biante can have the yanks stuff. Watch them line the fences for the Replica Group C/A series. I am in. Can someone send this link to CAMS pls?
R
R
Edited by rorym, 17 January 2007 - 10:50 PM.
#25
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Posted 17 January 2007 - 11:29 PM
Did anyone actually watch In Pit Lane last night or is the topic to remain on a subject that t this point in time does not have a hope in hell of getting off the ground.
I know a lot of the Group C and A owners that race their pride and joy. Most are not rich, just wage and salary earners the same as you and I. The cars were bought because we grew up watching them and had a passion to own one or in some cases, a few more. I do not know one of these people who even consider that the increasing value would ever stop them from racing them.
My goal when posting the topic originally was to hopefully get more people interested in the evergrowing Group C & A catagory, not start a debate over replicas. So, if you really do like the spectacle, turn up and watch them race instead of tying to find negatives and alternatives.
I know a lot of the Group C and A owners that race their pride and joy. Most are not rich, just wage and salary earners the same as you and I. The cars were bought because we grew up watching them and had a passion to own one or in some cases, a few more. I do not know one of these people who even consider that the increasing value would ever stop them from racing them.
My goal when posting the topic originally was to hopefully get more people interested in the evergrowing Group C & A catagory, not start a debate over replicas. So, if you really do like the spectacle, turn up and watch them race instead of tying to find negatives and alternatives.
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