512 replies to this topic

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

What I was trying to say in my last post about the 50% rule was something like this.
Feb 72 Gmh asks for approval of lj xu1. Cams recognition of 200 units built/sold.
(Must have been some sort of list.)

1/1v 100 cars (or more) sold with the listed varants(50% rule) and so on until 5/5v.
Total cars 700 minimum

BoB, I think you misunderstand the 50% Rule. What the 50% Rule is about is that if Holden wanted to homologate a new part etc they needed to have 50% of the required minimum amount of cars all ready sold. With the required minimum being 200 in 1972, 50% of 200 = 100. They needed to have 100 cars (50%) of the required minimum 200 cars all ready sold before CAMS would accept the homologation. They still needed to build 200 cars not 100 (50%). So with each new homologation holden needed to build a required minimum amount of 200 cars. For a new homologation holden needed to have 50%, 100 cars all ready sold.

When i first recieved the 1972 rules from CAMS it took me a good solid 8 weeks of reading to understand what the bloody hell they were going on about. A couple of phone calls to CAMS as well to verify some issues as well. I believe Holden, Ford, Crysler etc even had to employ a team of lawyers to understand the rules fully and look for any loopholes which may of given them an advantage over there opposition.

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

According to CAMS the 1970 & 1971 Series Production rules were identical to that used in 1972. The letter below was from Holden to CAMS in reguards to what is referred to as the 1971 Bathurst XU-1.





Gearbox & Diff ratios required 100 cars to be built per ratio

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

Could it be that D = Day Shift and N = Night Shift ??? Generally these larger companies did run various shifts and mind you this is just a guess !!!
Recently I,ve talked to a couple of mechanics who worked for various race teams in the 70,s and they all claim that the homologated Bathurst camshaft for 1972 was in fact the XJ camshaft. They were also allowed to lighten the flywheel and use stiffer suspension (Springs). So it certainly appears to me now that the only XU-1 torana to recieve these 1972 Bathurst specs were in actual fact the race cars (Race Teams). Im pretty sure no production (Sales Room Floor) XU-1,s recieved these specs. To my knowledge ALL 1972 LJ XU-1,s ran the standard XH or HX camshaft (Which ever you look at it) standard flywheel and standard springs, though some cars did recieve the sprintmaster rims and the 3.55 diff ratio. I think at this point Holden would of still been in recovery mode from the Supercar Scare and the last thing they needed to be seen doing was pumping out high performance Bathurst specials at that point of time.
I,ve read in various books and magazines that the 1972 Bathurst XU-1 was quicker down the quarter mile. One mechanics reply was that YES a standard XU-1 fitted with a 3.55 diff ratio would be quicker down the quarter than one fitted with the standard 3.36 diff ratio.
So basically the only Bathurst specs that were fitted to the road going cars were, some recieved sprintmasters and some recieved the 3.55 diff ratio.
It would be interesting to find out weather any 10th, 11th or 12th month 1972 XU-1,s were fitted with sprintmasters as there were certainly two batches of self locating sprintmasters produced, one batch being dated 6/72 and the other being dated 11/72 and the fact Holden produced 265 LJ XU-1,s in the months of November and December seams a little odd.........

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

From January to the end of July 1972 Holden built a total of 600 LJ XU-1,s (According to the vin disk) with the required minimum needed in this time frame being 600 (According to the CAMS rules & CAMS homologation paperwork).

200 required for Eligibility H2-3 (Jan, Feb)
200 required for Homologation 3/3V (Mar, Apr, mid May)
200 required for Homologation 1/1V (mid May, Jun, July)


Eligibility H2-3, 200 required


Homologation 3/3V, 200 required


Homologation 1/1V, 200 required

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

From August to the end of December 1972 Holden built a total of 805 LJ XU-1,s (According to the vin disk) with the required minimum needed in this time frame being 700 (According to the CAMS rules & CAMS homologation paperwork).

200 required for Homologation 2/2V (Sprintmasters)
200 required for Homologation 4/4V (Track)
300 required for Homologation 5/5V (Cam, Springs, Flywheel & 3.55 Diff Ratio)


Homologation 2/2V, 200 required


Homologation 4/4V, 200 required


Homologation 5/5V, 300 required


Of the 805 LJ XU-1,s built from August to the end of December 1972, (105 have dealer number 000) 805 - 105 = 700 which was the required minimum needed in this time frame.

Of the 105 LJ XU-1,s with dealer number 000

84 were from the Adelaide plant
74 000 X (Export)
10 000 M (Melbourne, Internal)

21 were from the Brisbane plant
21 000 X (Export)

So with 95 LJ XU-1,s being exported and sold overseas, and 10 being internal holden vehicles im unsure as to weather these 105 000 dealer numbered cars would qualify



The CAMS rules do clearly state
Quote:

sold in Australia

End Quote:


Your thoughts......................................


PS: Previously i had said that 806 LJ XU-1,s were produced, maybe 807. There are question marks over 2 cars in which i will write to Holden asking for verification letters for these 2 cars.







Your thoughts........................................

[frash da bucket]

Hello Bruce,

I was at a meeting last night,my local car club,one of the members use to own a local holden dealership of 600,Kerry's Motors of Springwood,NSW.
He told me that the bathust xu-1's,left the factory,with the srintmasters fitted,including the spare.Once the cars arrived,they fitted the wheel spacers to them and any of the accesories,what customers wanted in those days.He sold a lot of xu-1's over the years.

John.

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

Hey Frash (John)
YES, After much research it does certainly appear that some (Not All) 8th and 9th month 1972 plated LJ XU-1,s recieved factory fitted self locating sprintmaster rims. These rims being dated 6/72 and perhaps being left over parts from the abandond XU-2 programme. According to reports Holden had 200 sets of these rims which may explain why not all XU-1,s built in August and September 1972 recieved the sprintmaster rims. Also may explain why a second batch of sprintmasters dated 11/72 were ordered. Going from the cams homologations , Im guessing that 400 LJ XU-1,s may of been required to have been fitted with sprintmaster rims.

Homologation 2/2V Sprintmasters (200 Required)
Homologation 4/4V Track (200 Required)

To my knowledge no 11/72 Bathurst LJ XU-1 recieved the sprintmaster rims. So im thinking that the second batch of sprintmaster rims dated 11/72 may of been ordered and built to late for the final batch of LJ XU-1,s to recieve the rims. However over time i have seen many 1973 LJ XU-1,s fitted with dealer optioned 11/72 dated self locating sprintmasters, suggesting that they may have been made available as an option in 1973 as Holden had 200 sets they had to get rid of some how.

Talking about the abandond XU-2 programme, What the hell was Joe Felice,s Prototype XU-2 The Lockwood Special doing at Bathurst in October 1973 ????? I thought all these prototype XU-2,s got destroyed when sent down the crash barrier..............







Cant allways believe what you read or hear i suppose...............

[Dr Terry]

Hey Frash (John)
YES, After much research it does certainly appear that some (Not All) 8th and 9th month 1972 plated LJ XU-1,s recieved factory fitted self locating sprintmaster rims.

Hi Fly.
I'm not disputing that 200 XU-1 probably had factory fitted Sprintmasters, but how are they shown on the broadcast sheet & if they are not shown, why not ?

Did they drive off the assembly line with them, or were they perhaps fitted in the storage or holding yards, before delivery to the dealer.

Dr Terry.

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

Hi Fly.
I'm not disputing that 200 XU-1 probably had factory fitted Sprintmasters, but how are they shown on the broadcast sheet & if they are not shown, why not ?

Did they drive off the assembly line with them, or were they perhaps fitted in the storage or holding yards, before delivery to the dealer.

Dr Terry.
[/quote]





Hi Dr Terry

If you look at the above Production Broadcast Sheet from an Adelaide built 09/72 LJ XU-1 you will notice the code P48. Through research i could not pinpoint what exactly P48 is. However according to a Holden spare parts guru, Code P (As in P48) is for wheels. The closest we could find to 1972 was 1978 and the VB commodore. Here are some examples :

PC1 : 6 X 14 inch Steel Wheels
PH9 : 6 X 15 inch Alloy Wheels
PY8 : 5.5 X 14 inch Steel Wheels

Also of note are the tyres, 5(175 SR 13 RADIAL PLY). Most often when nibless rims were used, 5(B70H13 4 PLY H-HIGH PERF. BLACKWALL) tyres were fitted. Also Mick (barodaxu1) who owns an Adelaide built 09/72 LJ XU-1 has his Production Broadcast Sheet and is very close in build to the one above. Earlier in the thread Mick (barodaxu1) reported his Production Broadcast Sheet did not have code P48 and had 5(B70H13 4 PLY H-HIGH PERF. BLACKWALL) tyres on it. The Production Broadcast Sheets below are from 8th & 9th month 1973 cars. Note the tyres.
Im assuming that code P48 = Sprintmasters. Im still not 100% sure code P48 = Sprintmasters, but what else could it be ??? One thing im 100% sure of is that the cars were delivered to the Holden Dealerships with sprintmasters already fitted.






Some more pictures of 1972 Production Broadcast Sheets or more info from them would be awsome....................

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

G/Day Jamie
What tyres does your build sheet have ? G95 diff ratio ? Will try to find out what Code A is.........

[robj]

So why does the build sheet for the one above out of the fiv antoniou book have 'Dandenong Vehicle' and 'Vap A' on it. Did these get sent to the Dandenong plant for the bathurst additions?

The build sheet has dealer code 265 on it, from the listing on this forum thats Melbourne Internal GM-H public relations. So maybe thats the reason.

[robj]

I new I had looked at this before and could not quite remember it all. The other bit of info that adds to my post above is the vin listing shows L215993 being sold through dealer 107, which shows up as a geelong dealer. This differs to the production broadcast sheet pointing to it being sent to internal holden. I suppose it was sent there and for some reason then sent on and sold through dealer 107.

The other 2 sheets above, their dealer code lines up with the vin listing.

[Dr Terry]

Hi Fly.

While you make a convincing argument about P48 being the RPO for Sprintmasters, gtr_xu1 also has a good point about all broadcast sheets having 55R rims & CPL wheel trims, whether they have P48 or not.

I have many lists with early option numbers (back to HK) & none have P48 on them. However all the numbers in the part of the list (e.g. P32, P50, P51, P52, etc) relate to spare wheels, tubeless tyres or tyres with tubes. Most wheel RPO numbers have two letters & one number (e.g. PH6, PC1, etc.)

I'm still of the belief that Sprintmasters were fitted post-production in a holding yard, before delivery to the dealerships. It's only anecdotal, but back when they were new, this what I was told by guys who used to transport Holdens interstate.

RPO A22 is a non-tinted laminated windscreen.

Dr Terry.

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

Hi Dr Terry

Of the 3 1972 broadcast sheets we know of :

1 : Above
2 : Jamies (gtr-xu1)
3 : Micks (barodaxu1)

(Not the 2 i printed earlier as they are 1973,s)

2 have the code P48 and both have 5(175 SR 13 RADIAL PLY) Tyres. The one without the code P48 has 5(B70H13 4 PLY H-HIGH PERF. BLACKWALL) Tyres. So with the information that has been supplied, is it safe to assume that code P48 is tyres and not rims (Sprintmasters) ??? I have been told that tyres were available as an option but dont know weather this information is correct. Im assuming it is ???
Also Dr T in your opinion is it safe to assume the minimum number of LJ XU-1,s that were required in 1972 is 1300 according to the 1972 cams rules & homologation paperwork. Your opinion would be greatly appreciated and would confirm we are at least heading in the right direction.
(robj) I have no idea why the above broadcast sheet has "DANDENONG VEHICLE" & "VAP A" on it ???

[robj]

Hi Fly,

In the Fiv antoniou book, it says on page 37 that the 72 bathurst toranas where built in Adelaide and then brought to Dandenong for the new parts to be fitted. To me, the broadcast sheet in the book seems to point to that particular car going to dandenong and then being sold normally, which seems to line up with this statement. The problem is the vin listing is no help as it only shows the final sold dealer, so only a broadcast sheet would show this. I'm assuming the broadcast sheet in the book is in fact the one for his xu1 as shown on the cover.

I can see that they could change the springs and wheels easily, but the cam and flywheel would quite a bit of rework which does not make sense to me. Much better to build the engine with these parts.
Also, it does seem strange that the build sheet does not have different codes for the front and rear springs. I can only compare the codes to the later 73 ones, but i would assume they are not different to the earlier sheets you have access to.

I'm just pointing this out, as i have no idea if this is true or not. It would be good to try and find out where he (Fiv A) got that information from.

Rob

[Dr Terry]

Hi Fly,

In the Fiv antoniou book, it says on page 37 that the 72 bathurst toranas where built in Adelaide and then brought to Dandenong for the new parts to be fitted. To me, the broadcast sheet in the book seems to point to that particular car going to dandenong and then being sold normally, which seems to line up with this statement.

Rob

This makes sense, it's the way HSV (& some later HDT) cars are built.

The unique engines & transmissions are fitted on the production line, they are then delivered to HSV (Clayton, Victoria) where they fit the exhausts, spoilers, brakes & wheels etc.

So, the XU-1 engine mods (including flywheel) would have done at the engine plant, then fitted on the production line. They then went to Dandenong for all the other bits to be fitted. This way, the stock wheels & springs would show up on the broadcast sheet, not the special Bathurst ones.

As you say Rob, it would be nice to know how Fiv A got this info.

Dr Terry

Edited by Dr Terry, 24 September 2008 - 04:27 PM.

[rodomo]

Buy why would they do this when it would seem much easier and less expensive to take the springs, spacers and Sprintmasters to Adelaide and fit them on the production line. So if they were fitted at Dandenong what was the reason they did this? I can't see them doing this unless there was a specific reason to do it that way.

I'm no guru but I would think that the people that developed the improvements would want to oversee production?