512 replies to this topic

[robj]

Thats interesting to point out Fly. to me it seems that the recognition doc could be the same as 3/3v

H2-3 Recognition doc:
front 1340.044 52.76 rear 1304.972 51.38
(with a note saying front is measured at half travel, and rear is constant)

3/3V
front 1338/1351 52.7/53.2 rear 1305 51.38

So the rears are the same measurement in both docs. And for the fronts, it seems that perhaps the range of measurement is perhaps due to suspension travel. As the 3/3V amendment does not state measure at half height.

So to me, it seems that holden forgot to specify that the measurement in the original recognition doc was with 3 spacers front and 1 rear.

In the LC recognition doc, it clearly states one spacer front and no spacers for the rear.


/Rob

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

So what do you think Rob ? Did amendment 3/3V change H2-3 in any way, shape or form ?

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

Thats alot of LJ XU-1's they made in Aug-Sept 1972, considering they only need to make 200 to enter the Bathurst Race of 1972.

Heres some research for you to do Allan :

Under the C.A.M.S. Rules how many cars were required to complete the following homologations

2/2V Sprintmasters (10-8-1972)
4/4V Track "Sprintmasters" (10-8-1972)
5/5V Cam "XJ", Lightened Flywheel "19lb", Springs, 3.55 diff ratio (29-8-1972)

Come on Allan you still have,nt given the correct answer for this one yet..........

Does anyone know how many cars were required to complete these 3 amendments ?

[xu2308]

Well Fly it should be 200 LJ XU-1's, As thats the Stuff that the 72 Bathurst Specials were ment to have on it.

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

Thats alot of LJ XU-1's they made in Aug-Sept 1972, considering they only need to make 200 to enter the Bathurst Race of 1972.

Heres some research for you to do Allan :

Under the C.A.M.S. Rules how many cars were required to complete the following homologations

2/2V Sprintmasters (10-8-1972)
4/4V Track "Sprintmasters" (10-8-1972)
5/5V Cam "XJ", Lightened Flywheel "19lb", Springs, 3.55 diff ratio (29-8-1972)

Come on Allan you still have,nt given the correct answer for this one yet..........

Does anyone know how many cars were required to complete these 3 amendments ?

Come on Allan, Read the rules and amendments i,ve supplied for you.

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

Read this stuff carefully : Subject RECOGNITION :

[xu2308]

Ok Fly
the rules say that 200 Basically Identical Units has to be Sold in Australia
And when Amendments are done,the rules say that 50% of the cars has to be Sold for Amendments to be allowed
You stated to Amendments the 10/8/1972 and 29/8/1972

So that means before the 10/8/1972 that 100 cars had to be Sold with Factory Fitted Sprintmasters before the 10/8/1972 for that amendment to be ok,so as long as Holden followed the C.A.M.S Rules to the T then this had to be done.


And the same thing with the 29/8/1972 Amendments,that 100 Cars had to be Sold before that amendment date,am i reading and understading the C.A.M.S Rules you Supplied ok.

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

You are doing exceptionlly well here Allan, though remember SOLD does,nt nessaserily mean built. It could also mean as long as Holden had 100 orders placed by dealers this could also mean SOLD. So if every amendment (2/2V, 4/4V & 5/5V) required 200 cars be built and gearbox and diff ratios required 100 cars be built per ratio, how many cars were required to be built to complete the 3 amendments ?



Gearbox and diff ratios required 100 cars per ratio, these were required to be fitted in production.

You are nearly there Allan, its all about understanding...............

[xu2308]

You are doing exceptionlly well here Allan, though remember SOLD does,nt nessaserily mean built. It could also mean as long as Holden had 100 orders placed by dealers this could also mean SOLD. So if every amendment (2/2V, 4/4V & 5/5V) required 200 cars be built and gearbox and diff ratios required 100 cars be built per ratio, how many cars were required to be built to complete the 3 amendments ?



Gearbox and diff ratios required 100 cars per ratio, these were required to be fitted in production.

You are nearly there Allan, its all about understanding...............

Well there 3 Amendments you Listed, 2/2V,4/4V,5/5V
And you said 200 Cars for each Amendment,well thats 600 Cars Built
And i Guess 100 Cars for The Diffs and Gearbox's, So thats 700 cars if i am correct and my Adding brain is in gear lol

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

Well there 3 Amendments you Listed, 2/2V,4/4V,5/5V
And you said 200 Cars for each Amendment,well thats 600 Cars Built
And i Guess 100 Cars for The Diffs and Gearbox's, So thats 700 cars if i am correct and my Adding brain is in gear lol

Amendment 5/5V required 300 cars, 100 extra for the 3.55 diff ratio, these 300 cars were not required to be fitted with sprintmaster rims (Only Nibless).

Of the 500 8/72 & 9/72 cars only 200 were fitted with the sprintmasters, Why ??? A clue (These rims are dated 6/72) and how many cars were required to complete amendments 2/2V Sprintmasters & 4/4V Track ? Refere to section 4 Recognition and section 3 Minimum Production and Sales of the C.A.M.S. Rules.

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

To this day im still trying to work out how Ford got those 15 X 7 Bathurst Globes homologated From August 1972 Holden completed 805 XU-1,s, 105 with 000 dealer codes ( 95 000 X, 10 000 M )



Technically i dont know if you could class these 105 XU-1,s as being sold in Australia



Technically 28C was,nt a Bathurst because of its 000 M Dealer Code





Bazza, in your opinion, Can we class these 105 XU-1,s as being sold in Australia ???

[Bazza]

Bazza, in your opinion, Can we class these 105 XU-1,s as being sold in Australia ???

Hi Fly

You know how to ask the hard questions. I would assume that GMH Aust knew precisely what they could legally get away with. I would think that the 000-X cars would have been sold to an export company and then exported by them. I doubt if GMH Aust would be exporting to individual dealers in NZ. So from that standpoint it could be argued the cars were sold in Australia. The rules don't say "sold and used in Australia"

That's my take.

Cheers

Bazza

[xu2308]

000 M is Inhouse Holden at Port Melbourne,so they were for GMH at Port Melbourne

000 X is the Export Dealer code,so the Cars under that 000 X Dealer Code were the Export Cars.

[robj]

Just answer your question Fly, my opinion on 3/3v is that the original track was the same, just that holden forgot to specify that to get this track you needed the spacers to be fitted. perhaps CAMS or Holden realised this and this required the 'errata' to clearly state the situation to get the specified track.

So i don't believe that this would have required more cars to be built as it was a just an addition to the recognition documentation stating that spacers where fitted to get the track specified.

AS for the 2/2v and 4/4v one, i'll have to have a think about this one. I think we need to measure the offset of a sprintmaster to try to make sense of the original measurements listed. maybe someone has some good measurements already of a sprintmaster verses a nibless rim.

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

Hi Fly

You know how to ask the hard questions.

Cheers

Bazza

Sorry Bazza, Whats your take on the erratas ?

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

Have to totally agree with ya on this one Gong !!!! Many of the 1971 Bathurst CK,s had dealer codes of 000 B or 000 S and ended up being exported to NZ.

[S pack]

G/Day Dave
In the first instance would mean recognition form H2-3 (Eligibility) Correct. Now technically speaking did amendment 3/3V change H2-3 in any way, shape or form ? To my way of thinking amendment 3/3V was the second instance. Once we can wrap our brain around section 2 Authority and section 5 Compliance of the C.A.M.S. Rules, i feel its pretty clear. In plain english what section 2 & 5 are saying is that if there is any change in the original form of description, that change needs to be homologated and a minimum of 200 cars are required to do so, though this is only my interpretation of the rules..............
Did amendment 3/3V change H2-3 in any way, shape or form ?

Hey Fly
I believe, after reading the CAMS rules you posted that Errata 3/3V would be in the first instance not the second instance, as it relates directly to H2-3. Yes, I agree that it does effect a change to H2-3. However, surely CAMS would have a mechanism in place to allow rectification of an honest typo/clerical error or oversight in the original Certificate of Recognition or any subsequent amendments without the requirement to build another 200 or 100 cars when you have already built the cars to the intended spec but simply made an error reporting those specs. Why would you even bother to put ERRATA (printing error) on the amendment form if it still meant producing at least another 100 cars.

Edited by S pack, 12 March 2010 - 12:53 AM.

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

G/Day Dave
All i can do is go off the facts i have in front of me :

1 : THE CAMS RULES : This clearly states that in order for CAMS to accept an amendment Holden were required to have 50% or 100 cars of the minimum 200 required all ready sold. So in order for CAMS to accept ammendment 3/3V Holden were required to have 100 of the 200 cars all ready sold. There is nothing in the rules which allow for stuff ups. Sections 2, 3, 4 and 5 of the CAMS rules are clear.

2 : AMENDMENTS : Amendment 3/3V does exsist and is an entity by itself, along with H2-3, 1/1V, 2/2V, 4/4V and 5/5V. By saying amendment 3/3V isnt an amendment because it simply has the word errata on it is incorrect. Amendment 4/4V also has the word errata on it and is also an entity by itself. Are you prepared to say that amendment 4/4V isnt an amendment because it simply has the word errata on it and relates directly to 2/2V ?

3 : VIN DISC : According to the vin disc Holden completed the 200 cars required for amendment 3/3V.


Going from the rules, amendments and the vin disc it would certainly appear Holden did build the 200 cars required for amendment 3/3V...........

Up to August 1972 Holden completed 600 LJ XU-1,s 200 for H2-3, 200 for 3/3V and 200 for 1/1V. To me this makes perfect sence...........

Does :

3/3V = H2-3
4/4V = 2/2V

I think you will find these are seperate enities in themselves...........each requiring 200 cars !!!!

[S pack]

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

i have counted the adelaide cars 4 times now and i keep coming up with 68
i have found 4 gtrs betsbac 76203E0 with JP motors in them
L194151...JP 103031
L194153... no details
L194461...JP 103455
L194595...JP 104774
I reckon these are actually XU-1s with the wrong betsbac number logged against them
there were no other grts built during this period so counting these as xu-1s i come up with 72 adelaide cars
and the brisbane count 128 or 129

the extra one from brisbane was maybe built on 21/12/71...first LJ xu-1???? in late 1971??


hey bazza did you count those gtrs as xu-1s to???
cheers johnno

Hi Meanmachine72,
I can confirm that these cars are xu1s with the wrong betsbac number. I've nearly finished restoring L194461 with JP 103455 and it is an Xu1. I have photos of the car new and the original owner also confirmed this. Hope to make it to Toranafest.
Regards rtxu1

I gave it about a billion to one chance of finding 1 of these 4 cars. I can confirm L194461 is most certainly a XU-1 and is currently under restoration. It also began life as a SA rally car. I can post some photos if Anthony permits...............

One thing we can say 100% is that the 200 1/72 & 2/72 LJ XU-1,s were the 200 H2-3 Eligibility cars...........

and why did Holden produce 100 3/72 LJ XU-1,s ?

and 300 4/72, 5/72, 6/72 & 7/72 LJ XU-1,s ?

I would be very interested to know just how many 4/72 & 5/72 LJ XU-1,s were built and just how many 6/72 & 7/72 LJ XU-1,s were built of the 300. One thing i know is that there were very few 4/72 LJ XU-1,s built and even fewer 7/72 LJ XU-1,s built..................

[meanmachine72]

there were 14 adelaide built cars and 6 brisbane cars built during the 4 month of 1972

got a spread sheet happening now but have to do adelaide to answer the rest of ya questions

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

there were 14 adelaide built cars and 6 brisbane cars built during the 4 month of 1972

got a spread sheet happening now but have to do adelaide to answer the rest of ya questions

The only problem with your system Johnno is that it does,nt determine what ADR the car had 100%.

Lets look at the 6 Brisbane built cars in April :

H228154 (4-4-1972) ADR 3/72
H230630 (27-4-1972) ADR 4/72
H230775 (27-4-1972) ADR 4/72
H230924 (27-4-1972) ADR 4/72
H230960 (28-4-1972) ADR 4/72
H231018 (28-4-1972) ADR 4/72

Adelaides are more over the shop..............

Defining the points between a 5/72 & a 6/72 ADR plated car is much tuffer and is going to take a hell of alot of research i feel...........

I was hoping Bazza,s data could pinpoint this for us but Baz has,nt quite got enough info to pinpoint this one for us.

Edited by FLY_AGAIN_XU-1, 12 April 2010 - 12:31 PM.