512 replies to this topic

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

Hey Fly
I believe, after reading the CAMS rules you posted that Errata 3/3V would be in the first instance not the second instance, as it relates directly to H2-3. Yes, I agree that it does effect a change to H2-3. However, surely CAMS would have a mechanism in place to allow rectification of an honest typo/clerical error or oversight in the original Certificate of Recognition or any subsequent amendments without the requirement to build another 200 or 100 cars when you have already built the cars to the intended spec but simply made an error reporting those specs. Why would you even bother to put ERRATA (printing error) on the amendment form if it still meant producing at least another 100 cars.

In total Holden produced 600 LJ XU-1,s up to August 1972 :

200 : 1/72, 2/72
100 : 3/72
300 : 4/72, 5/72, 6/72, 7/72

If homologation 3/3V did,nt require 200 cars be built, Why did Holden build 200 cars ???

My take on this is :

200 : 1/72, 2/72 (100% H2-3)
100 : 3/72 (50% 3/3V)
300 : 4/72, 5/72, 6/72, 7/72 (100% 3/3V, 100% 1/1V)

H2-3 Required 200 cars
3/3V Required 200 cars
1/1V Required 200 cars

Fits like a glove and makes perfect sence, does,nt it ??????

[meanmachine72]

makes lots of sense to me bruce

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

In August 1972 Holden built 200 LJ XU-1,s. 50% or 100 cars had factory fitted self locating sprintmasters, the other 50% or 100 cars had nibless rims..........


Why ?

[xu2308]

In August 1972 Holden built 200 LJ XU-1,s. 50% or 100 cars had factory fitted self locating sprintmasters, the other 50% or 100 cars had nibless rims..........


Why ?

How you know that 50% had Nibless Rims ??????,i have seen Adelaide Built Aug and Sept 1972 LJ XU-1's with the Factory Fitted Self Locating Sprintmasters,are we talking Adelaide built ones or Brisbane Built Cars in Aug-Sept 1972, Harry Firth said there were 200 LJ XU-1's Fitted with the Factory Sprintmasters,now were they 100 Adelaide Built XU-1's and 100 Brisbane Built LJ XU-1's,i guess that is a hard answer as there no official list of the 200 1972 Bathurst XU-1 Cars by PSN or JP Engine Numbers by GMH other than we know that 200 cars got the Factory Sprintmasters.

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

Ok Fly
the rules say that 200 Basically Identical Units has to be Sold in Australia
And when Amendments are done,the rules say that 50% of the cars has to be Sold for Amendments to be allowed
You stated to Amendments the 10/8/1972 and 29/8/1972

So that means before the 10/8/1972 that 100 cars had to be Sold with Factory Fitted Sprintmasters before the 10/8/1972 for that amendment to be ok,so as long as Holden followed the C.A.M.S Rules to the T then this had to be done.


And the same thing with the 29/8/1972 Amendments,that 100 Cars had to be Sold before that amendment date,am i reading and understading the C.A.M.S Rules you Supplied ok.

The dates 10/8/1972 and 29/8/1972 were the dates C.A.M.S. offically recognized the updates (Not when they recieved them)..........

2/2V Sprintmasters 10/8/1972 (200 required)
4/4V Track (Sprintmasters) 10/8/1972 (200 required)
5/5V Cam XJ, Lightened Flywheel, Springs, 3.55 Diff ratio 29/8/1972 (300 required)

In total Holden were required under the C.A.M.S. to build a minimum of 700 cars to complete homologations 2/2V, 4/4V & 5/5V.........

In August 1972 Holden built 200 LJ XU-1,s. 100 cars had factory fitted self locating sprintmasters, 100 cars had nibless rims. (50% 2/2V, 50% 5/5V)
In September 1972 Holden built 300 LJ XU-1,s. 100 cars had factory fitted self locating sprintmasters, 200 cars had nibless rims, of these 200 cars 100 had 3.55 diff ratios fitted. (50% 4/4V, 100% 3/3V)

In August and September of 1972 Holden built a total of 500 LJ XU-1,s, only 200 had the factory fitted self locating sprintmasters fitted. The 300 cars fitted with nibless rims were the 300 required to complete homologation 5/5V. The 200 cars fitted with the sprintmasters were the 50% or 100 cars required to allow homologations 2/2V and 4/4V.

Holden were still required to build a further 200 cars to complete homologations 2/2V & 4/4V. A new batch of rims were required. These were only offered as an option and were,nt factory fitted like the previous August and September cars............ Holden simply followed Flords lead..........




The 200 sets of sprintmasters used on the August & September cars are dated 6/72 and were originally intended to be used on the V8 LJ,s until offically cancelled on Friday the 30th of June 1972.


The second batch of self locating sprintmasters are dated 11/72 and were only offered as an option and not factory fitted.



If you can understand whats below you are very close to having an understanding of a 1972 LJ GTR XU-1 :

JANUARY
FEBRUARY 200 (H2-3) Eligibility

MARCH 100 (50% 3/3V)

APRIL
MAY
JUNE
JULY 300 (100% 3/3V, 100% 1/1V)

AUGUST 200 (50% 2/2V, 50% 5/5V)

SEPTEMBER 300 (50% 4/4V, 100% 5/5V)

OCTOBER
NOVEMBER
DECEMBER 305 (100% 2/2V, 100% 4/4V)



I know this stuff will probaly seem confussing but once you have an understanding it will all make sense.................

Every ammendment or homologation required a minimum of 200 cars, for C.A.M.S. to accept the ammendment or homologation Holden were required to have 50% or 100 cars of the minimum 200 cars all ready sold. You guys that believe only 200 1972 Bathurst XU-1,s exsisted may have to have a rethink and take your heads out of the rubbish published in the Fiv book and research the facts rather than believing in myths and rubbish............If only 200 were required, then why the hell did Holden build 500 cars in August and September...................

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

Up to August 1972 Holden built 600 LJ XU-1,s :

H2-3 Eligibility 200 required
3/3V 200 required
1/1V 200 required

From August 1972 Holden built 805 LJ XU-1,s :

2/2V 200 required
4/4V 200 required
5/5V 300 required

Of the 805 LJ XU-1,s built from August 1972 105 have dealer codes of 000 with most of these being exported. This then leaves us with a total of 700 LJ XU-1,s being sold in Australia which was the required minimum to complete homologations 2/2V, 4/4V & 5/5V.

Weather or not these 105 dealer 000 cars were eligible or included in the count is another thing, Holden themselves may be the only ones who can answer this.

One thing for sure Holden had there ass covered by building 700 cars which were sold in Australia............

I have a funny feeling they were covering there ass after the bombardment they gave Ford and C.A.M.S. in reguards to how Ford went about homologating their 15 X 7 Bathurst globes for their GT HO Phase III,s. Harry Firth to this day still does,nt know how Ford got those 15 X 7 Globes homologated for Bathurst in 1972 for there GT HO Phase III,s. Me, im just as lost as Harry trying to explain how they done it. One thing for sure Holden was,nt prepared to lose there hard earned 1972 Bathurst victory over a technicality..........

This was the real Ford V,s Holden stuff !!!

[xu2308]

I see what your saying Fly, Harry Firth seems to think the 200 Cars that got the Factory Fitted Self Locating Sprintmasters were the 200 Bathurst Cars,I know when Ford wanted to put the Phase 4 Wheels on the XY GTHO Phase 3's,to get rid of the 200 sets of wheels they put some on the Early RPO XA GT's and others on Fairlanes Etc to get rid of 200 Sets of Phase 4 Wheels,so they could be homo in time for the 1972 Bathurst Race.
As i said before it would be easier for all,to call every Aug-Sept 1972 Brisbane&Adelaide Built LJ XU-1's,the Bathurst Specials buy going off what you have discovered from the C.A.M.S Rules with the Homo's,simple i say as there no Official list from GMH anyway ???????? What you think about that Fly

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

G/Day Alan
Calling all the 500 August and September built LJ XU-1,s "Bathurst,s" im unsure. Lets remember that a fair few of these 500 XU-1,s were exported and the rules do state they must be sold in Australia. I can live with if you have one of the 700 LJ XU-1,s that were built and sold in Australia from the 1st of August 1972 you own a "Bathurst".With 700 being required and 700 being built and sold in Australia makes sense. Technically, was the 105 000 dealer coded LJ XU-1,s sold in Australia and were they eligibile ? We must remember most were exported. Perhaps one way Holden tried to recover costs of the cancelled V8 LJ and they did only export 2 LJ XU-1,s in 1973. So as to weather you can class a exported LJ XU-1 as being sold in Australia im unsure. Either way Holden had there ass covered.........
As for an official list simply remove every XU-1 built from the LC-LJ Vin disc and theres your official list. Add the C.A.M.S. Rules and homologations and you have the truth........... I can tell you this, every XU-1 Torana was built for a reason. Yes, that of motor racing !!! Without our production cars Holden could,nt race, without motor racing the XU-1 Torana would,nt have been born............

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

They made pit stops that much quicker.........

[xu2308]

Well going off Harry Firth its the 200 Cars that got the Factory Fitted Sprintmasters,now working them out could be a mine field,due to how many left that still have there original Factory Sprintmasters still fitted.

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

Under the C.A.M.S. Rules, camshafts, flywheels and springs were NOT required to be fitted in production. However Holden were required to build and sell 200 basically identical units. As long as Holden built and sold these 200 basically identical units the race teams were allowed the use of the homologated parts. In order for C.A.M.S. to acept a homologation or ammendment Holden were required to have 50% or 100 of the required 200 cars sold.

Gearbox and Diff Ratios were required to be fitted in production : 50% or 100 cars per ratio

Wheels sheeezzzz : Originally Holden thought these were required to be fitted in production, hence the 200 8th and 9th month XU-1,s with the factory fitted self locating sprintmasters. Then Ford proved otherwise by homologating there 15 X 7 globes for there GT HO Phase III,s for Bathurst and hence why the second batch of self locating sprintmasters were only offered as an option. By offering them as an option they were still well within the rules. I suppose its how you interpurate it..............

2/2V Sprintmasters 200 required
4/4V Track (Sprintmasters) 200 required

The initial 200 cars (8/72 & 9/72) had them factory fitted. the following 200 cars (10/72, 11/72) had them as an option........




Not all owners folked out the extra dollars for the second batch of 200 sets of self locating sprintmasters in 1972 hence why they were still available as an option in 1973

With only 200 cars being required in October, November and December to complete homologations 2/2V & 4/4V Holden completed 305. 105 more than was required. Was it a case of win on Sunday sell on Monday or was Holden simply covering there ass by having 700 cars sold in Australia ??? Its the only piece of the jigsaw puzzle i have,nt found the answer for yet.............

Generally Holden only built the amounts they were required to build :

1970 : 700 built 700 required
1971 : 700 built 700 required
1972 : 1405 built 1300 required
1973 : 788 built 750 required

Maybe Joe Felice Knows..............

[rodomo]

INTERMISSION

Yoose blokes amaze me

[glenn stanley]

Depending on what state you are in get in contact with the XU1 owners club (Google it) and speak to one of the technical guys and get one of them to go with you to inspect the car as there are plenty of dodgy cars out there mate.

Edited by glenn stanley, 27 September 2010 - 08:00 AM.