81 replies to this topic

[yel327]

I think that has since been proven to be wrong, all HQ rims should be Canadian other than maybe right at the end although given all HQ’s remaining to be assembled at the start of HJ volume production should have had a set of rims ordered for it when the schedule entry occurred. The HQ Engineering car colour specifications for Sandman issued in December 1973 (never revised) has the Canadian colours listed, also states “as received”. GMH painted all the locally made rims as far as I am aware, so that indicates they arrived painted. Plus the paint line is different for these to locally painted wheels. A few other documents recently found also indicate the same thing. People have always wondered why HQ specs were never revised for wheel track as the ROH N66 rims are a slightly different offset, the answer is it didn’t change. A similar change to a different rally wheel occurred during HZ mid 1978 when the ROH steel N66 rim was replaced by the N67 alloy wheel, that change is well documented in multiple places, yet there is no mention of any change during HQ.

Edited by yel327, 09 June 2021 - 10:35 PM.

[claysummers]

Interesting read b

early Holden nut

[yel327]

That is based upon the best evidence so far. As I said there is no concrete proof on GMH documentation found so far, only snippets.

[Shiney005]

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one for now. This is an ROH manufactured GTS rim from August 1973.

 GTS wheel August 1973 ROH.jpeg   293.47K   2 downloads

 

Looking at the colours of unrestored rims.

 

New never used L34.

 L34 rim 2.jpg   119.11K   3 downloads

 

Rim on brand new A9X sedan. (Camera flash may have brightened it a bit)

 new on Andys old A9X small.JPG   188.83K   2 downloads

 

NOS L34 rim.

 Unused NOS L34 (1).jpg   47.65K   3 downloads

 Unused NOS L34 (2).jpg   34.64K   1 downloads

 

 

Unrestored A9X spare

 Original spare a9x 1.PNG   1.43MB   3 downloads

 

 Original spare a9x 2.PNG   1.56MB   2 downloads

[Shiney005]

Unrestored L34

 Unrestored L34.jpg   63.63K   2 downloads

 

Unused A9X spare

 Unused A9X rim.jpg   75.77K   1 downloads

 

Another unrestored L34

 Unused Craigs.PNG   833.36K   1 downloads

 

 

Unused A9X spare.

 Unused A9X spare.PNG   1.33MB   3 downloads

 

I am leaning towards October 1974 for the paint change, with ROH rims manufactured between Aug 1973 and Oct 1974 painted in the old colours.

There is perhaps more metallic in the later rims? Maybe why the grey looks lighter with the camera flash?

[yel327]

I have no doubt L34 rims were painted in the imported colours. It is the confusion of what N66 rims were used.So far the only Survivor 1974 examples I have seen with N66 rms (Sandman and XV4) have been Canadian rims.

[yel327]

I just found some more anecdotal info that sways back towards your thinking Laurie. Will share when I get time.

[yel327]

What I'm thinking might help. Are the L34 rims a JJ or a JK? Double or single safety bead?

 

What I noticed this morning is the preliminary HQ Technical Specifications issued in November 1970 (done in the form of US AMA sheets which gives another hint as to the origins of the HQ) show the N66 Rally Rim as a 14x6JK which they are, I have a few here. See below, low res but you can see the text:

 Preliminary Specs.jpg   37.33K   5 downloads

 

Here is the transmittal for the revision and page E-14 of the HQ Features manual revised October 1973:

 Transmittal.jpg   18.2K   4 downloads

 Features revision.jpg   96.58K   3 downloads

 

What you can see here is the October 1973 revision has three revision dots. The first one is next to the offset for the Rally Rim. The second next to the 6.0JJx14. The third is a load rating change.

 

So I'm wondering two things.

 

1. The Sandman option package was originally slated for slightly earlier release than February 1974. I'm thinking that maybe this Features Manual revision was because the N66 rims was to become standard in load rated applications on XX7/XY5 utes and van. Possibly ADR20 that had been issued a few years prior but hadn't been really considered until the JK rims were never widely used on commercial applications prior? Or to do somehow with ADR23 that was coming into force on 1st January 1974?

 

https://www.infrastr...gn/files/20.pdf

https://www.infrastr...gn/files/23.pdf

 

2. If the wider usage of Radial tyres had something to do with the move to JJ rims?

 

What flies in the face of all this is there are original XV4 cars built in 1974 that originally had Canadian JK rims on them, and I have seen an original XX7 still sporting its original spare under it which was a Canadian JK. It's all shrouded in mystery.

 

What I did find however is the original HQ Service manual lists wheel track as:

 

60.2" for 5" wheel cars.

60.4" for GTS and GTS350.

 

As you can see from the Feature manual page E-14 above, the HQ standard 5", option PC1 6" and cab-chassis 6" rims share the same 0.65" offset so they give you the same wheel track. This is reflected in the HQ Service manual volume 6 (commercial supplement) where it lists all commercials with a wheel track of 60.2" (utes and van with 5" and cab-chassis with 6"). So what this means is the original N66 Canadian rims must have had 0.1" less offset than the standard 5" and 6" rims to change the track from 60.2" to 60.4". So given the standard rims were 0.65", the Canadian N66 must have been 0.55". The ROH N66 is 0.5" offset, so the track of a HQ-HZ fitted with ROH N66 rims must have therefore been 60.5". This figure is not easy to find for HQ (so far impossible), but in the HZ features manual it states 60.5" for all except 60.2" for cab-chassis (as all HZ  6" wheels are 0.5" offset except HZ cab-chassis which retained the HQ 0.65" offset).

 

So what this all means? This points towards probably/possibly January 1974 onwards with ROH N66 wheels, except those cars found with Canadian rims so far muddy that. They wouldn't have been able to mix and match, each car would have to have had 5 wheels all the same offset. As Laurie says they must have painted them in the imported paint line colours. It is well documented that GMH had to pre-order imported gear a long time in advance based upon sales projections, whereas locally made stuff could normally be procured (or manufactured) once a vehicle went into the schedule. Multiple factors affected actual versus projected, and the best known examples of this are 307 and V8 Powerglide into HT and the bulk lot of HQ XW8 Kingswood sedan built in October 1974 to used up remaining L30 M41 drivelines not used in HQ as projected (XW8 (GTS sedan) was the cheapest car to use up remaining 350 and TH400). My guess is GMH had a lot of Canadian N66 rims to get rid of, and maybe they slipped them out on cars that were not higher performance like 173 and 202 Sandman and 253 XV4 (GTS) sedans. It is also possible GM dumped a lot of the 14x6 rims on GMH to get rid of (or at least made GMH order what they wanted before they stopped making 14x6 in bulk). Reading the history of these, they were initially 14x6 but in 1969 Firebird changed to 14x7 and then all Transam went to 15x7 in 1970 with the remainder of Firebird 14x7 for 1970. After 1968 only the 1969 and 1970 GTO used 14x6, then 14x6 became very rare. So this may be a clue. We know that the HQ Muncie transmissions have a North American code on them, possibly off a cancelled vehicle series, it may well be the case that the N66 14x6 rims we got were the same? Who knows. Bloody HQ's, they are an enigma sometimes.   

[hanra]

Im sure if GM needed a dumping ground for anything they didnt want, it would have been dumped this way as far away from them as possible....! 

[yel327]

The reason I said that about dumping is there is some evidence that the HK-HG rally wheel hubcaps and consoles were unused North American items sent here to be used. May not have been though.

[Shiney005]

The picture of the black 8-73 ROH rim I posted above came from a local "For Sale" webpage. I ended up traveling to Perth to buy them yesterday. The seller never owned the car they came from, but he knew of it, and he claimed these four rims had always been with this particular car. (Monaro)

Three of the rims are the 1973 ROH's and one is Canadian. By eye, they look to have the same offset, but I will measure them when the sun comes up. 

 GTS wheel August 1973 ROH from Bills Machinery.jpeg   240.09K   5 downloads

[Shiney005]

It's also good to read on that HQ Features Sheet that the six inch rim was an option on all other models. I bought a one owner Kingswood that had them fitted once and I always wondered if they were a dealer fitted option or factory. They looked good too. With chrome (Premier?) dress rings they looked wider than they actually were.

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

 Are the L34 rims a JJ or a JK? 

 

 l34 rim.jpg   67.05K   4 downloads

L34 Rim (JJ)

 

 

 

 

Are the HK-T-G Monaro 14 X 6 Rally Wheel a JJ or JK ?

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

Three of the rims are the 1973 ROH's and one is Canadian. 

 

What year is the Canadian rim ?

[yel327]

It's also good to read on that HQ Features Sheet that the six inch rim was an option on all other models. I bought a one owner Kingswood that had them fitted once and I always wondered if they were a dealer fitted option or factory. They looked good too. With chrome (Premier?) dress rings they looked wider than they actually were.

 

Option N66 6" rims were always optional right from the start of HK GTS327 release, they were called Rally Wheels or Rally Rims. I think it was only on Brougham, Ute and Van where they were not available. They were the same wheels as a GTS327. HT-HG had the same thing just slightly different offset and different centre. The HT-HG Rally Wheel is the same offset as a HK Rally wheel with a spacer behind it. The only odd one was the HT-HG GTS350 manual, shortly after release they got a lightweight slotted rim but all the rest were the same. It just looked like a normal HT Rally wheel but with slots cut out on the perimeter. Once you got to HQ as well as the carried over normal looking 6" rim (now option PC1) you could option N66 which was the Canadian Rally Rim. Both of these were optional across the HQ range including ute and van, except on GTS, GTS350, XV4 (GTS sedan), XW8 (GTS350 sedan), XV2 (SS) and XX7/XY5 (Sandman) where they were standard and cab-chassis where a heavy duty 6" wheel was standard. All of the 6" HQ rims were the same 0.65" offset as the 5" rims except the N66 Rally wheels were 0.55" for the Canadian version and 0.5" for the ROH.

Once you get to HZ the PC1 6" wheel had its offset changed to be the same as an N66 rim (0.5") and PC1 becomes standard across the range except for cab-chassis, GTS and Sandman. Only the cab-chassis had a different offset of 0.65", although I have seen this quoted elsewhere as 0.63".

There was also the 14x7" option PE1 honeycomb rim which was optional from the start of 1975 until mid 1978 on sedan and coupe except for LE where it was standard and Caprice. It had an offset of 0.34". Plus the 14x6" N71 wire spoke wheel, it was 0.39" and optional on HZ Premier sedan and wagon, and on GTS, Deville and Caprice. I don't have any offset details of the N67 Rally Rim which is the 14x6" alloy wheel that replaced N66 mid 1978, however I think it also is 0.5" offset. It was optional everywhere on HZ from about mid 1978 except GTS, SL/E and Sandman where it was standard and on cab-chassis as it wasn't load rated.

l34 rim.jpg

L34 Rim (JJ)

 

 

 

 

Are the HK-T-G Monaro 14 X 6 Rally Wheel a JJ or JK ?

 

JJ, so the L34 must be as they are the same hoop I believe.

[claysummers]

Went to buy a set of new ROH 6” HT rims but too much offset to fit on my HR disc hubs. I was told they are P27mm. 5” HT rims just clear upper ball joint and outer tie Rod but they are under track and look silly.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[yel327]

1.06” from memory, which is all but 27mm.

[Shiney005]

What year is the Canadian rim ?

It seems this puzzle can only get more complicated.  I heard some years ago that the last of the imported Rally wheels were made in the U.S. and not Canada. It was a claim I dismissed at the time, but it seems the fourth rim of the set that I bought is indeed American. The date code is different so I will research that. (T14  3  12  HN)

I have had a look through my rim stock, and found a 1971 rim which I assume is Canadian, so I will get the tyre removed and give it a sandblast so I can compare it against the U.S. and Australian rim.

At first glance, the American rim looks like it has a 5mm deeper offset, but when you measure from the back face to the inside edge of the rim it is identical to the R.O.H. It is pretty hard to measure from the wheel nut seat to the front face, but it makes me think the centre might actually be slightly thicker.

Edited by Shiney005, 16 June 2021 - 06:50 PM.

[yel327]

I think HN means 1971-1975 Ventura 14x6 RallyeII. I don’t think it’s original for a HQ.

The date might be 3 for 1973 and the 12 may be the 12th month.

Just found this from someone who seems knowledgeable:


HNs were introduced for use on '73 model Pontiacs where a 14x6 rally II could be optioned. The HN coded 14x6 rally II continued to be used for 74 models & in matched sets is occasionally sought out for use on '74 Ventura based GTO. As an original coded rallyII they are not near as desirable as most earlier coded 14x6 rally II wheels, so most HNs are usually very affordable. From pulling several out from my wheel stacks, there are two different style date coding stampings on HN's. One style, to the LH of the valve stem, there is a large T stamped, followed by 2 numbers, then a number (day of the month) stamped to RH of valve stem, along with a large font HN. The other style stamping is what you have sixtysix. To the left of the 5 there should be a small M followed by a 1 or 2. Underneath the M and small number, there will either be no small stamped number, or a 3 or 4. If a 3, then May 8, 1973 assembly. If a 4, then May 8, 1974. if no small number stamped under he small M, then will need to examine inside of the wheel for the year stamping.

Edited by yel327, 16 June 2021 - 07:19 PM.

[yel327]

Here is a pair:

https://www.ebay.com/p/1286893481

[Shiney005]

The other thing I forgot to mention was that the 6 inch HQ (commercial) rims that were factory fitted to my Kingswood are USA made as well. I will get these sandblasted as well.

[yel327]

Cab-chassis ones? That probably explains why they didn’t change offset like non cab-chassis 6” rims when 6” became standard with RTS in HZ.

[Ice]

What would be the correct paint codes for these to suit a HZ Sandman then . 

these have been made into 14x 7 inch  wheels 

Attached Files

•  A9A00B07-0423-4312-A92F-E5187047E49D.jpeg   148.46K   4 downloads

[yel327]

The later colours. Haven't got them on hand. Charcoal and Wheel Silver Metallic. But only correct for early HZ Sandman, ie from about 10/77 to about 7/78. After that they were alloy rims and Rally rims remained that way until the end of WB.

 

I'd sell them and buy new repro 15x7. Far better choice of tyres.

[Ice]

What 15x7 Chinese ones no thanks 

I can get tyres no probs yes less choice 

Mine is 10 /77