60 replies to this topic

[rodomo]

Not to mention those rip off old lady corrosion inhibitors. Virtualy a dead trickle short.

RACV MAN

[gtrboyy]

According to the brochure I have the ES12V700 & the ES12V535(bike batteries) dont have the metal jacket.That ES12V1500 weighs 26.6kg,what a monster lol.

[Tiny]

GTRBOY: Yep mate it is!! I'll never forget busting a gut to get it to sit up onto the diff tunnel where ive got mine mounted!! Thankfully its been alot of years ( and hoping for alot more) before i have to move it again!!

cant be doing much good for my 1/4 times.. but oh well.. least it starts!

Cheers.

[turbotrana]

Ive got an Optima Yellow top in the boot of the tory. Only reason I used it cause the terminals were always getting encrusted with the white crap and cause the optima is fully sealed it doesnt do this anymore.

But one thing I have noticed with the optima is that it will only charge to max 12.5volts when lead acid battteries seem to charge to around 13.5.

Am I right or have I been drinking too much Cammomile tea

[Dangerous]

The ideal float charge voltage for any battery will be higher than its fully charged no load voltage. As Chopper said, the ideal float charge for a lead acid is around 1.2 vpc, which equates to 14.4 volts (this is usually specified at around 25C ambient, and should be less for higher temps). Most modern alternators will be set to around this or just below, to allow for the higher battery temperatures experienced in an engine bay.

Once the car's turned off though, a fully charged battery voltage will settle to around 12.8 volts in an idle state. It will not stay at the charge voltage

An Optima or Odyssey should sit at around 12.8 volts if it is fully charged, and not connected to anything. Ideally, they should be 'quick' charged at 14.4 to 14.7 volts, and if left attached to a charger, float charged at 13.6 to 13.8 volts. Both types prefer to see a largish inrush current when first being charged, so at all times, a big battery charge or car alternator is preferrable to a small 4 amp toy charger. As a guide, whatever the battery capacity is, this should be the minimum inrush current available (ES12V1000, which has a 46 ah capacity - minimum inrush charge really should be 46 amps).

If anyone wants to really look after batteries in cars that aren't driven often, look around for an old HF radio power supply, and modify it to be a battery charger. They are usually around 10 to 20 amps at 12 to 14 volts (internally adjustable voltage) and because they are a power supply, not a charger, they can supply the very short 40 to 50 amp inrush charge that dry cells like to see. For longer term float chargin, get a 'battery fighter' float charger or similar.

[myss427]

I have had an Odessey in my hatch for 4 years now, no trouble what so ever. Has no problem starting the big block, and it only weighs 5 lbs. Had eleven plate truck batteries before, but they always shit them selves because the infrequent use of the car.

[shanegtr]

Ive got an Optima Yellow top in the boot of the tory. Only reason I used it cause the terminals were always getting encrusted with the white crap and cause the optima is fully sealed it doesnt do this anymore.

But one thing I have noticed with the optima is that it will only charge to max 12.5volts when lead acid battteries seem to charge to around 13.5.

Am I right or have I been drinking too much Cammomile tea

Why did you go with the yellow top? - thats a deep cycle.

I've just brought a red top for the torana as my old one died from being left in a discharged state. Hopefully solved that problem with the new battery and a trickle charger. The optima batteries are supposed to be more resitant to vibration than normal lead acid batteries. I'll be putting one in my cruiser as well when that need a newie. They arnt cheap, $340 for one here, so if it lasts double the time a normal battery does then I suppose its worth it

[Tiny]

Hotrodder: THANK YOU!!... I'm glad that youve given your time and knowledge on this subject! It's great to hear from someone who actually KNOWS!

All extremely interesting, thanks again!

Tiny.

[Dangerous]

A lot of whats been said regarding batteries and charging is not true.

Hotrodder, a few points of clarification on your posts, my posts and in general, mostly to do with generic battery info vs depleted electrolyte types. I'm not having a go at you or anyone, but this is a thread full of good info, so it needs to be clear about what exactly is being referred to, for the benefit of all. There are significant differences between battery types, so people need to be clear on what information applies to what, and not try to apply a set of data from one battery type to another.

Firstly, yep, you're dead right, 2.2 vpc, not 1.2 - Chopper's mistake (sorry Chopper ), and my mistake for not picking it up. Actually, to be more correct, around 2.3 volts per cell for a reasonable level of charging, depending on ambient and battery temperature, and 2.2 volts for float, once again depending on ambient and battery temerature. Less for higher temperatures, and a bit more for lower ambients. This is for a generic wet lead acid battery for vehicle or marine applications. Odyssey quotes 14.4 to 14.7 volts (ie 2.4 to 2.45 vpc) for quick charge on their 'dry cells', and 13.6 to 13.8V (ie ~ 2.3vpc) for float charge.

You also said

A flat battery does NOT require an in-rush of current

, which is not correct if you were referring to my post stating 'both types prefer to see a largish inrush current when first being charged'. Odyssey battery charging guidelines recommend an inrush current of not less than 1C, ie if the battery is a 50 AmpHour unit, an inrush current of 50 amps. I wouldn't try that with a generic wet cell car battery though, although it's pretty much what happens if you jump start a flat battery in a car any way. Also, a higher charging current than recommended can be effective in reversing sulphation in a lead acid battery, at the risk of overheating and damaging the (already damaged, due to severe sulphation) battery.

Re thin plates "buckling" with deep cycles, I'm not sure that's the case. As far as I am aware, thin plates are damaged, and in the worst case, 'punched through' by sulphate crystals growing between them due to extended discharge, or too much time spent flat. It's a problem with vehicle batteries because the plates are so close together and relatively thin, so even small crystals can cause damage.

Car batteries on concrete - well, no, I disagree with you entirely. Car batteries and temperature - yes, batteries don't like getting hot. Concrete itself doesn't really have anything to do with it. All batteries should be raised off any surface so that air can circulate around them to help equalise their internal temperatures. That rarely happens for automotive batteries though, so whatever surface the battery is sitting on can play a part in its temperature. I also seriously doubt that stratification will have any effect an a battery as small as a car battery. Large flooded standby batteries yes, but car batteries - no. Depleted electrolyte , AGM, dry cell etc - definitely not.

What I have seen concrete do though is that if it is not entirely level, it can push up the base of the battery. Most wet cell batteries have a 'tray' section at the base, which is intended to catch all of the crap that falls off the plates in normal use, and keep it away from the base of the plates. Push up the base of that tray, and the accumulated crap can contact the bottom of the plates, and cause an internal short circuit. Bye bye battery.

Power supplies as battery chargers. Once again, if you're referring to my post, I specified an old HF radio power supply. Not a CB one. Old HF power supplies are usually capable of 10 to 15 amps constant rating, and 20 to 30 amps peak/intermittent use. All of them have tuneable output voltage, and some of the better ones have internal thermal protection too, which either limits or cuts off power output if the regulator circuitry gets too hot. So, with all that going for it, it makes a very good base for a battery charger. Certainly better than most of the commercially available units for the enthuisiast rather than the professional, without going to big $$.

You mentioned that a modern battery has plates of pure lead and lead oxide. That's not quite correct. Batteries these days have a small amount of antimony added to the lead to make it harder (thus more resistant to plate sagging, vibration damage and punch through damage from sulphate deposits), and the cathode is lead dioxide, not lead oxide. It wouldn't work too well as a battery if it was only lead oxide.

With your failed Odyssey. Was it about 2 to 3 years ago, and did it lose capacity, rather than fail completely? Did the supplier ever get back to you on what had actually failed? The reason I ask is that I had a couple die under those circumstances, and I have heard of others too around the same period, but the supplier refused to comment on whether there was a quality problem. I'm sure there was.

[Toranamat69]

QUOTE (myss427 @ Feb 9 2006, 02:27 PM)
I have had an Odessey in my hatch for 4 years now, no trouble what so ever. Has no problem starting the big block, and it only weighs 5 lbs. 


this cant be right???

the lightest odyssey/optima battery i could find was 11kg, or about 25? pounds.

what model have you got there? as i am in the market for a battery...

I agree with you Brett32i, I just went through the selection process for an Optima and 25 lbs was the lightest one I could find.

M@

[Dangerous]

Actually, when you get right into the construction of lead acid batteries (and I'm definitely not an expert on batteries), everyone's half right

When lead acid batteries are first made (well, this used to be the way they were made back when my brain could still cope with new information), both plates are the same - Lead Oxide, or PbO. Passing a current through the newly constructed battery causes the negative electrode to convert to lead, and the positive electrode to convert to PbO2 (probably not fully, but enough to coat the surfaces of each plate), which sets up the polarity of the battery. Batteries can apparently change their polarity if left flat by reversing the above lead/lead oxide arrangement, but I've never experienced it personally.

The electrochemical potential of the cell is set by the metals/oxides used, so lead acid batteries are pretty much fixed at ~2 volts per cell. Zinc carbon is 1.5 vpc, NiCads around 1.2, etc.

Hotrodder has experience with large scale standby battery backup systems, where the batteries tend to be much larger than car batteries, with very different construction techniques and operational and life cycle requirements. Thermal expansion may be more of an issue in batteries used for that purpose. Also, his knowledge on batteries in general is more likely to be current (oh, bad pun intended ) than mine, which I reckon is more than a tad rusty.

[Dangerous]

No break required, hotrodder, it's all good info.

Curious with the battery reversal though - can the battery bank still pass a reasonable current with one if its series cells being reversed?

Sounds like your Odyssey met the same early death as mine did. We even had a brand new one still in the cardboard box which failed.

[myss427]

QUOTE (myss427 @ Feb 9 2006, 02:27 PM)

I have had an Odessey in my hatch for 4 years now, no trouble what so ever. Has no problem starting the big block, and it only weighs 5 lbs.�

this cant be right???

the lightest odyssey/optima battery i could find was 11kg, or about 25? pounds.

what model have you got there? as i am in the market for a battery...


5 lbs might be an exageration, but its about the size of a large motorcycle battery and I have it mounted on its side in the door footwell under the dash. Its probably 5 kilos but its super light compared with a normal battery.

[Dangerous]

Odyssey ES12V500 and 650 only weigh 5.4 and 6.6 kg respectively, with 175 and 245 cold cranking amps. Fine for starting a car which starts easily, but no good for extended cranking, or for cars which have a lot of accessories and high power draw items.

myss427, I'd guess that you're not running big compression or radical cam in your big block, and/or that it fires up very quickly?