With the recent sad passing of Ashley Copper I thought it may be more appropriate to discuss the issue of concrete barriers on race tracks in this thread rather than talk about the issue in a condolence thread.
Some one mentioned about tyre barriers as opposed to concrete.
I have given that some thought as to what would be more suitable. There are some others on this site who are regular racers that may be able to give a more informed opinion from personal experience or knowledge.
My concern with a tyre barrier set up on turn 8 is would a car hitting that be more incline to bounce off back into other cars or gaining momementum from bouncing off?
Is there something better that absorbs impact without lauching the car back out?
Concrete Barriers V Tyre Barriers
Started by
_HatchmanSS76_
, Feb 25 2008 07:08 PM
59 replies to this topic
#2
_CHOPPER_
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Posted 25 February 2008 - 07:25 PM
A better approach would be 20 metres of "kitty litter" between the ripple strip and tyre wall. Not all tracks could be made to comply with that, but what's more important?
#3
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Posted 25 February 2008 - 07:33 PM
a tyre wall on that corner would actually be more dangerous than concrete...my opinion only..tyre walls are okay when used in an appropriate way...such as chopper has described above...in a situation with little or no runoff area you are more likely to bounce off tyres and back into the race area....often on ya roof..concrete slows the momentum much more but causes more car (and unfortunately sometimes, more driver) damage/injury..it really is a bit different on circuits to on speedways where i race but due to previous experience i would take concrete over tyres on a dirt track anyday!!
#4
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Posted 25 February 2008 - 07:38 PM
kitty litter would actually raise the risk of launching the car into the air as it would have to be retained by a ripple strip so as the car went over the ripple strip it would dig into the litter and roll or flip over the fence ie: think albert park with the f1 cars, bathurst at the chase as long as the car goes in straight they are ok but a bit of lock and they are cactus.
Maybe a form of collapsibal wall that is easily replaced ie nascar ovals now since earnhardts death.
The angle that ash hit and the sudden stop is more to blame as he clipped the inner wall first before firing across into the outer wall. if he had hit at a similar angle to dumbrell and others over the years he would of slid down the wall into turn 9.
we will have to wait and see but everyone must keep in mind that everyone who enters into motorsport know the risks if they dont they are kidding themselves, it is a harsh thing to say but it is part of the sport that is not really spoken about but it is there.
Maybe a form of collapsibal wall that is easily replaced ie nascar ovals now since earnhardts death.
The angle that ash hit and the sudden stop is more to blame as he clipped the inner wall first before firing across into the outer wall. if he had hit at a similar angle to dumbrell and others over the years he would of slid down the wall into turn 9.
we will have to wait and see but everyone must keep in mind that everyone who enters into motorsport know the risks if they dont they are kidding themselves, it is a harsh thing to say but it is part of the sport that is not really spoken about but it is there.
#5
_LXChev366_
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Posted 25 February 2008 - 08:32 PM
Since the crash I have been thinking about how they can improve the corner... I even waited to see an overhead shot of the corner to get any ideas about what could be done. I'm sure this has all been thrashed out before, as CAMS has a policy of safe race tracks or no permit is issued. It has been a stinker of a corner since day one and I haven't really liked it at all and we now have a friend lost forever... to late now of course. I cant think of any changes that can be made and still keep the same speed through that corner.
#6
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Posted 25 February 2008 - 08:45 PM
Tony is on the money...the new NASCAR/F1 deformable steel fence backed by the Aussie air bag system absorbs energy and is a proven winner...the system of using concrete blocks because they are easy/quick to get in and out is old technology.
This needs to be revisited quickly.
My concern is that he actually didnt hit the fence that hard..we have watched others walk away from similiar smashes in years gone by....I am looking for the report..and an equipment failure..Hansfords titanium seat bolts sheared after the Mondeo was in 3 previous crashes in the BTCC..Gregg became a passenger inside a steel shell and died from whip lash...The final results will be interesting reading.
This isnt over yet by a long shot and CAMS need to extract the digit for the safety of all racers..not just the V8 Super boys.
End of rant.
R
This needs to be revisited quickly.
My concern is that he actually didnt hit the fence that hard..we have watched others walk away from similiar smashes in years gone by....I am looking for the report..and an equipment failure..Hansfords titanium seat bolts sheared after the Mondeo was in 3 previous crashes in the BTCC..Gregg became a passenger inside a steel shell and died from whip lash...The final results will be interesting reading.
This isnt over yet by a long shot and CAMS need to extract the digit for the safety of all racers..not just the V8 Super boys.
End of rant.
R
#7
micklx
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Posted 25 February 2008 - 08:55 PM
Thats the most info I have ever read about Greggs crash at P.I. The only 2 Litre race I ever went to and my hero died.
With the benefit of hindsight, its a wonder they've raced at Adelaide all these years with that corner like it is. But surely now they must make some changes even if it does cost a lot.
The collapsable wall sounds like a good idea, something that doesn't bounce the car back out on the track.
With the benefit of hindsight, its a wonder they've raced at Adelaide all these years with that corner like it is. But surely now they must make some changes even if it does cost a lot.
The collapsable wall sounds like a good idea, something that doesn't bounce the car back out on the track.
#9
_purpleLC_
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Posted 25 February 2008 - 09:05 PM
I think what others have said about the tyre wall is right,
the car would bounce back onto the track as well as the
tyres dislodging and other cars following hitting them.
The impact didnt look that hard, do all classes have to wear the
"HANS" device?
the car would bounce back onto the track as well as the
tyres dislodging and other cars following hitting them.
The impact didnt look that hard, do all classes have to wear the
"HANS" device?
#11
sagman
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Posted 25 February 2008 - 09:20 PM
heard a radio interview this arvo with jamie whincup, the question was put to him about the safety of the track and in particular turn 8. whincup stated that the track was FIA approved and exceeded all standards by a fair margin,but no matter how safe you can make it the inexplicable will still happen. the car came to rest in front of me and i did not like what i saw at all
safety of cars and tracks will continue to evolve and the type of barriers that rory is talking about sounds like a good idea for street circuits in particular.
these type of suggetions should be forwarded to cams, the v8 supercars board and the organisers of the clipsal 500 event...............laz
safety of cars and tracks will continue to evolve and the type of barriers that rory is talking about sounds like a good idea for street circuits in particular.
these type of suggetions should be forwarded to cams, the v8 supercars board and the organisers of the clipsal 500 event...............laz
#12
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Posted 25 February 2008 - 09:21 PM
Chicanes don't work too good either.Or even a chicane.
R
The ute race showed that when two cars are fighting for the same bit of road and no ones sensible enough to yield to the other. Crash Courtney's raming into Murphy in the same spot could have ended a lot worse too.
The NASCAR style collapsable wall could be the way to go. Is it modular and can it be installed/removed with relative ease for a street curcuit?
#13
_Baronvonrort_
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Posted 25 February 2008 - 09:42 PM
From memory i think about 3-4 crash every year big time on that corner and they have all walked away except 1.
Without knowing anymore than what i saw on TV and reading about the head injury it might be premature to draw conclusions untill investigation is complete and the coroners report will be interesting.
The impact didnt look any worse than some of the other big crashes there so considering most pass out with sustained G forces of between 6-9g's depending on fitness and duration of g's.
Fatal injuries occur when g forces are sustained over 65g's and you start extruding your brain through your ears when the g forces are sustained over 85g's.
It is hard to determine what angle he initially hit the wall at from TV hence estimating g forces yet from what i saw it looked no worse than many other crashes at the same corner over the years.
The fact he died from a brain injury leads to either excessive sustained g's or his head hit something.
This leads me to question his belts and HANS device and whether they restrained him from hitting his head on the roll cage or something else inside the car.
I think concrete is the right option for that corner as most hit it then slide down it.Putting the wall further back will be a mistake as they could go faster through the corner and also hit it at a far worse angle.
Some of us older blokes grew up with motor racing being extremely dangerous and in Jack Brabhams era people died very frequently and Mario Andretti recalls 3-4 people dieing on 1 night when he started racing speedway.
In the last 15 years we have lost Senna,Brock,Hansford and many other drivers who were not as well known so motor racing will never be 100% safe.
Motor racing is dangerous,always has been always will be and spectators even get killed at times.
Without knowing anymore than what i saw on TV and reading about the head injury it might be premature to draw conclusions untill investigation is complete and the coroners report will be interesting.
The impact didnt look any worse than some of the other big crashes there so considering most pass out with sustained G forces of between 6-9g's depending on fitness and duration of g's.
Fatal injuries occur when g forces are sustained over 65g's and you start extruding your brain through your ears when the g forces are sustained over 85g's.
It is hard to determine what angle he initially hit the wall at from TV hence estimating g forces yet from what i saw it looked no worse than many other crashes at the same corner over the years.
The fact he died from a brain injury leads to either excessive sustained g's or his head hit something.
This leads me to question his belts and HANS device and whether they restrained him from hitting his head on the roll cage or something else inside the car.
I think concrete is the right option for that corner as most hit it then slide down it.Putting the wall further back will be a mistake as they could go faster through the corner and also hit it at a far worse angle.
Some of us older blokes grew up with motor racing being extremely dangerous and in Jack Brabhams era people died very frequently and Mario Andretti recalls 3-4 people dieing on 1 night when he started racing speedway.
In the last 15 years we have lost Senna,Brock,Hansford and many other drivers who were not as well known so motor racing will never be 100% safe.
Motor racing is dangerous,always has been always will be and spectators even get killed at times.
#14
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Posted 25 February 2008 - 10:17 PM
Belt tension...and though it looked small...the right hand/drivers impact is also of interest to me to Baron..I would like the coroner to look at any marks on the helmet...something is different/wrong in this one.
R
R
#15
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Posted 25 February 2008 - 10:18 PM
230kph Vs 110kph is a huge difference....Chicanes don't work too good either.Or even a chicane.
R
R
#16
rodomo
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Posted 25 February 2008 - 10:29 PM
Paul Dumbrell and Stevie Johnson (or was it Stephen Richards?) a few years back springs to mind. Big hit and both walked away.From memory i think about 3-4 crash every year big time on that corner and they have all walked away except 1.
#17
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Posted 25 February 2008 - 10:30 PM
Maybe we're looking at the wrong part of the corner here. He clipped the wall on the apex, firing him into the outside wall. Same thing caused Seton's crash a few years ago. Maybe THAT wall needs to be moved.
#18
_Toranamuk_
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Posted 25 February 2008 - 10:31 PM
Whilst we may question the tracks safety or design criteria in different areas, there are a lot of other potential issues that could contribute to this accident.
Most of the Fujitsu series cars are older V8 supercars, some of these cars have been involved in a lot of accidents over the years, plus the "normal" wear & tear from the high loads & stresses that racing places on them. The car I crewed on this week was an 8 year old AU, the normal car I crew on is a 7 year old AU.
I know & have seen what some of the older cars have been through, & some of the budgets (or lack of) that these cars are continually being put out on the track with. They rarely get stripped & rebuilt, hyme joints & moly arms etc do not get replaced until they are visually stuffed or give indifferences in car setup. A lot of parts do not get replaced like they do in level 1 just because it has done the race kilometres.
This is not aimed at anyone or anything, its just that like Rory noted, there's unfortunately other things that contribute & unfortunately this incident ended in a death.
It does hit home a little bit more when your involved in the same class, & now to have 2 deaths in 15 months is not good at all.
Craig
Most of the Fujitsu series cars are older V8 supercars, some of these cars have been involved in a lot of accidents over the years, plus the "normal" wear & tear from the high loads & stresses that racing places on them. The car I crewed on this week was an 8 year old AU, the normal car I crew on is a 7 year old AU.
I know & have seen what some of the older cars have been through, & some of the budgets (or lack of) that these cars are continually being put out on the track with. They rarely get stripped & rebuilt, hyme joints & moly arms etc do not get replaced until they are visually stuffed or give indifferences in car setup. A lot of parts do not get replaced like they do in level 1 just because it has done the race kilometres.
This is not aimed at anyone or anything, its just that like Rory noted, there's unfortunately other things that contribute & unfortunately this incident ended in a death.
It does hit home a little bit more when your involved in the same class, & now to have 2 deaths in 15 months is not good at all.
Craig
#19
_HatchmanSS76_
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Posted 25 February 2008 - 11:09 PM
Your right on with the age of cars and components Craig.
The same thing is seen in speedway all too often. Budget races buy parts off top level drivers because they're used and cheaper than new bits. You don't always know what your really getting thou sometimes. The top level guys are getting rid of parts becuse everything has a life expectancy and they don't want to chance breakage. To get their cars to perform and run at the front consistantly parts need to be changed what they have a certian amount of laps. Accidents/banging wheels along the way also affect this.
I had an interesting coversation with Sprintcar racer David Anderson quite a few years ago. He said the best thing he ever did was stop buying the used components off top level drivers. It was then that he stopped having so many breakages and became a lot more competative.
As recent as a few years ago was Graham Stewarts first year in Sprintcars. A second hand roller was bought. Everything looked great from the exterior but what would normally be a knock on the front and collapsed front end with bent bars, turned into a wild flip and a junked chasis as the front axle had snaped due to fatigue which could not be seen from the outside.
Not saying for one minute that this is the case with the Cooper car but can not be ruled out either.
The same thing is seen in speedway all too often. Budget races buy parts off top level drivers because they're used and cheaper than new bits. You don't always know what your really getting thou sometimes. The top level guys are getting rid of parts becuse everything has a life expectancy and they don't want to chance breakage. To get their cars to perform and run at the front consistantly parts need to be changed what they have a certian amount of laps. Accidents/banging wheels along the way also affect this.
I had an interesting coversation with Sprintcar racer David Anderson quite a few years ago. He said the best thing he ever did was stop buying the used components off top level drivers. It was then that he stopped having so many breakages and became a lot more competative.
As recent as a few years ago was Graham Stewarts first year in Sprintcars. A second hand roller was bought. Everything looked great from the exterior but what would normally be a knock on the front and collapsed front end with bent bars, turned into a wild flip and a junked chasis as the front axle had snaped due to fatigue which could not be seen from the outside.
Not saying for one minute that this is the case with the Cooper car but can not be ruled out either.
#20
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Posted 25 February 2008 - 11:14 PM
I remember Frank getting Peter and Grant to send all suspension units to be Xrayed if he crashed the F5000 in any small way...
R
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#21
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Posted 25 February 2008 - 11:28 PM
Wise move that.I remember Frank getting Peter and Grant to send all suspension units to be Xrayed if he crashed the F5000 in any small way...
R
Guys racing on a budget would struggle to afford that.
Thing is they are the ones who should be doing it the most as the majority of them are using older equipment.
#22
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Posted 25 February 2008 - 11:30 PM
I am very much in favour of the collapsable wall as used in the states for Indys and Nascar. Would take an awful lot of momentum out of the impact ...
#23
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Posted 26 February 2008 - 03:16 PM
there is absolutely no doubt that the collapsible wall works....cams should look at making them compulsory imo...i know there is a huge cost involved but what price do you put on driver safety???I am very much in favour of the collapsable wall as used in the states for Indys and Nascar. Would take an awful lot of momentum out of the impact ...
#25
rodomo
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Posted 26 February 2008 - 11:49 PM
There was talk in the Melb. Herald-Sun today of re-designing the cars. Apparently the Nascars are all the same under the "skins" and that�s what they are hinting at.
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