135 replies to this topic

[toryman76]

Hey Jack,

 

I am happy to help you out with what I did, but keep in mind my setup is for a M20 gearbox, so I am not sure if the clutch/bellhousing arrangement is the same for a T5 box. Firstly obtain a clutch cable. I was given an old cable when I bought my bellhousing so I am not sure on the replacement part number but any clutch cable to suit a V8 HZ-WB with a pull type setup will work. One thing to be mindful of though is the new cables from Rares don't come with a replacement adjusting cone which is one reason why I never bought a new one. Measure the diameter of the cable body which will be fed through the firewall and drill a hole this exact size 25mm up from the captive nut from which the original setup would of been bolted to. Die grind up under the dash so you have clearance for the new hook. (see post #2 page 1 for full details)

 

Using a Sunbird clutch pedal cut off the plate with the hole in it. Fabricate (or get one laser cut) a new hook as per my drawing. See links below for a .PDF and a .DWG file. PS- I have no problem sharing these files with the Torana community for personal use, but if anyone wishes to use this on a commercial scale please just let me know.

 

https://www.dropbox....Sheet1.pdf?dl=0

 

https://www.dropbox....l Hook.DWG?dl=0

 

Weld new hook on in the same position as the hook you cut off. I can't remember the measurement from the edge of the pedal off the top of my head but happy to measure this for you this weekend.

 

This is really just an executive summary of everything that is in this thread, so should you require any further information please let me know.

 

Again, I'd like to stress that this worked for my setup, and I can't guarantee it will work for the T5 gearbox.

 

Cheers,

 

toryman76

[toryman76]

Can't believe I am dragging this thread up for a third time.... It seems to be my luck at the moment! Long story short I still haven't really given the car a good run due to engine issues. On the most recent drive I noticed a couple of 'squeals' coming from the gearbox region. Now the motor and box is back out I am trying to work out what is wrong. For some reason I now have these minor 'grooves' wearing into the fingers of the pressure plate. Can anyone help me with why I might have these grooves appearing after such a short time in the car? Now when adjusting the clutch, I was never able to achieve the desired measurements of the fork position in the fitting instructions (Exedy tech note E) without adjusting the ball well beyond its desired measurement. If I left the ball at the correct measurement the fork ended up way too far forward and would bottom out in the bellhousing. So I adjusted the ball out until the fork was at the correct measurement, adjusted the cable so the pedal height was correct, and off I went. But I am starting to think maybe something in my setup is wrong but I am not sure what? Here's some photos of my pressure plate, throw out bearing and clutch fork. I am using a brand new UC 6cyl cable too. 

 

 

Attached Files

•  20191006_145301.jpg   148.02K   11 downloads
•  20191006_145351.jpg   356.88K   8 downloads
•  20191006_145435.jpg   163.83K   6 downloads

[rexy]

That mark is likely from the throwout bearing.
Is the bearing spinning freely?

Yours also seems to have a very narrow contact area compared to some in my collection.

[toryman76]

The bearing is brand new and spins by hand beautifully. This was the bearing supplied in the clutch kit. Pretty sure the bearing box had GSB319 on it. I used a press to put in on making sure to locate the inner race so as to not damage the bearing. Do you have any photos of what the bearing should look like?

[dron]

The mark in the clutch plate and the bearing look about right to me, as long as the bearing is free I would not be concerned.

 

            As for adjusting it the free play at the top of the peddle travel is more important than the position of ball and cable adjustments. That is as long as you get full disengagement when the clutch is fully depressed. If you do not have free play at the top you load the bearing all the time and risk having the clutch slip.

 

            Had the same set up on a UC that I put a 253 into years ago, Do not remember all the details but the adjustment had to be spot on with the heavy duty clutch I put in it and I had to keep adjusting it to keep it where it needed to be.

[rexy]

It should be set up like this for a pull style setup.

 3700F20F-8A45-4C8E-AF6C-5E6C58A43C01.jpeg   67.68K   10 downloads

[S pack]

Rexy, that diagram is for a push type clutch fork.

[toryman76]

I always thought this setup was a constant running bearing? How do you adjust for free play on the bearing when there isn't anything on the carrier and fork design to pull it off the fingers? I should mention too that I have the pedal spring flipped around compared to a rat trap torana setup so effectively the pedal spring is pulling the pedal to the floor maintaining a constant pressure on the cable.

[claysummers]

No the thrust bearing should not be driven when disengaged or you’ll be replacing it every 20000km. It’s similar to hydraulic which often run without a detent spring, although I fitted one to my grey crash box in me yoot.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[toryman76]

Does anyone have a clutch fork that's known to be not bent to give me some reference measurements to check my fork is ok? I think I might look at putting a detent spring on the fork because no matter which way I set it up there is still minor load on the bearing.

[S pack]

I always thought this setup was a constant running bearing? How do you adjust for free play on the bearing when there isn't anything on the carrier and fork design to pull it off the fingers? I should mention too that I have the pedal spring flipped around compared to a rat trap torana setup so effectively the pedal spring is pulling the pedal to the floor maintaining a constant pressure on the cable.

Correct, the pull type cable clutches have a constant run throwout bearing. There is no free play between the throwout bearing and the diaphragm fingers.

 

Seems that in most cases where people have problems getting their cable clutches to adjust & operate correctly it turns out to be a problem with the clutch pedal, usually the wrong one for the application ie 6 cyl pedal with a V8 transplant.

Edited by S pack, 08 October 2019 - 08:44 PM.

[toryman76]

Ok. I have used the dimensions given in the first page of this thread to make a hook essentially copying the UC pedal but raising the hook height. I think toranamuk came up with this mod so I just followed the instructions. I started with a LX sunbird pedal which only had a small tab with a hole in it. I cut it off made the new hook and welded it on. There is no standard pedal for this application.

[S pack]

Ok. I have used the dimensions given in the first page of this thread to make a hook essentially copying the UC pedal but raising the hook height. I think toranamuk came up with this mod so I just followed the instructions. I started with a LX sunbird pedal which only had a small tab with a hole in it. I cut it off made the new hook and welded it on. There is no standard pedal for this application.

Just reading back through your posts it seems your only concern was a noise coming from the gearbox area and then finding the wear marks in the diaphragm fingers. You say you fitted the spring on the clutch pedal to put constant downward pressure on the pedal/cable.

I remember our WB the clutch pedal didn't have a spring, not sure if it was or wasn't supposed to have one. The only tension that was maintained on the cable was the weight of the pedal hanging on it.

Sounds like there is nothing else wrong with your set up just your concern about how much pre-load is being placed on the throw out bearing and a squealing noise?

Edited by S pack, 09 October 2019 - 06:52 AM.

[toryman76]

Just reading back through your posts it seems your only concern was a noise coming from the gearbox area and then finding the wear marks in the diaphragm fingers. You say you fitted the spring on the clutch pedal to put constant downward pressure on the pedal/cable.

I remember our WB the clutch pedal didn't have a spring, not sure if it was or wasn't supposed to have one. The only tension that was maintained on the cable was the weight of the pedal hanging on it.

Sounds like there is nothing else wrong with your set up just your concern about how much pre-load is being placed on the throw out bearing and a squealing noise?

 

 

Dave my main issue was hearing the squealing noise. It was only a short sharp noise but I heard it twice in a 20min drive. My secondary issue is the wear marks on the fingers of the clutch which was brand new prior to this 20min drive. These two issues have me second guessing whether I have the whole thing setup correct. 

 

You may be correct in saying the WB didn't have a spring on the pedal but the hook is also the other way round making it near impossible for the cable to un-hook itself. I have one of those pedals lying around somewhere. These cars also had a retainter to hold the cable in place where as I don't have anything. Not to say I could fab one picking up the bolt and nut thats still there from the factory 6-cyl ratrap setup. 

 

Does anyone have photos of a complete 100% fully functioning setup they can share? Even photos of a UC 6-cyl setup would help me at this stage.

[S pack]

The WB V8 full cable pedal & HX/Z pedal that uses the half cable half rat trap setup, pedals are exactly the same.

The 6cyl WB pedals have the same length hook as the UC torana pedal !!

The only difference is that the WB pedal has a spring that is mounted around the pedal mounting bolt & when in position is puts a light load on the pedal that pulls it toward the floor, giving the cable a light load that makes the "constant run" thrust bearing some load on the pressure plate, & also keeps just enough load on the cable to help keep the adjusting nut from un-winding itself.

Craig.

Found this post at the bottom of the 1st page in this thread.

Interesting, the WB pedal is supposed to have a spring to apply a light amount of load on the cable and throw out bearing.

I recall being able to lift up the clutch pedal in our WB quite easily with my big toe. Perhaps a previous owner had removed the spring?

[Cook]

I have a WB (253 M21) and went through this at the time and whilst i can't give any technical advice, from memory I followed Dave's advice re not needing a return spring and haven't had any issues.  Also I bought my throw out bearing from Dellow and they advised I should have a separation between the bearing and the fingers but there was no way i was going to get that, and other advice at the time was that I shouldn't have any free play just make sure it wasn't binding. I couldn't get the cable adjustment exactly right (wasn't quite disengaging) but my mechanic had it sorted, albeit he said it took a bit of adjustment. Been almost 2 years and It gets driven every other day and no real issues. Cheers Ron   

[rexy]

Blonde moment. Instead the fork needs to be angled away from the flywheel by 5 to 7 degrees so it sweeps through parallel to flywheel.

This will give you the best working angles.
Pivot ball will obviously be different spot to diagram as well.

[toryman76]

I have a WB (253 M21) and went through this at the time and whilst i can't give any technical advice, from memory I followed Dave's advice re not needing a return spring and haven't had any issues.  Also I bought my throw out bearing from Dellow and they advised I should have a separation between the bearing and the fingers but there was no way i was going to get that, and other advice at the time was that I shouldn't have any free play just make sure it wasn't binding. I couldn't get the cable adjustment exactly right (wasn't quite disengaging) but my mechanic had it sorted, albeit he said it took a bit of adjustment. Been almost 2 years and It gets driven every other day and no real issues. Cheers Ron   

Hey ron. I was actually talking with Mr dellow yesterday and he mentioned the same thing about leaving a 4mm air gap at the bearing to fingers. His theory is centrifugal force will make the bearing come away from the fingers hence why the bearing carrier doesn't need anything to help pull it away. I still don't see this being possible but he's been in the game a long time so I'm sure he knows his stuff. He was thinking maybe I need a deeper carrier which he can make but I need to give him the measurements. Out of interest did you need to buy a custom bearing carrier off him or did the standard one work for you? Did you use a stock fork or buy a new one? Any chance of some photos?

[rexy]

You used to be able to get bearing carriers of different heights. Some of the plastic rubbish commodore ones have been supplied and I did try one but the plastic mounting points for the fork failed pretty quickly.


 3CC34434-B33B-453E-9B3A-147C6A9988DB.jpeg   102.47K   6 downloads

I ended up using a pressure plate with raised finger diaphragm.
This allowed me to keep the pivot ball height within acceptable limits and have the fork angle correct.

I did explore using a longer/taller pivot ball but didn’t like the look of it when installed. Seemed like the longer lever effect might wiggle it out of its mounting hole in the relatively soft aluminium bell housing.



 18E68880-FD80-4D12-B075-5613CA4BF3E6.jpeg   502.84K   7 downloads

[Cook]

Here's a scan of the invoice with the bearing # and the note.  It was just an off the shelf bearing.  I'll try and get some photos later today.  Cheers Ron

Attached Files

•  Dellow Invoice.pdf   224.98K   30 downloads

[toryman76]

You used to be able to get bearing carriers of different heights. Some of the plastic rubbish commodore ones have been supplied and I did try one but the plastic mounting points for the fork failed pretty quickly.


3CC34434-B33B-453E-9B3A-147C6A9988DB.jpeg

I ended up using a pressure plate with raised finger diaphragm.
This allowed me to keep the pivot ball height within acceptable limits and have the fork angle correct.

I did explore using a longer/taller pivot ball but didn’t like the look of it when installed. Seemed like the longer lever effect might wiggle it out of its mounting hole in the relatively soft aluminium bell housing.



18E68880-FD80-4D12-B075-5613CA4BF3E6.jpeg

 

 

Rexy this is awesome! Thanks heaps for the photos. As far as I am aware I have bought a standard replacement clutch for a 'pull type' system however who knows what has changed to the designs over the years. I totally agree with the pivot ball position. Below is a photo of my first attempt and the ball is pretty much max'd out with fork clearing the pressure plate, creating a pretty crazy fork angle which I don't think would be anywhere near the 5-7deg per your sketch.

Attached Files

•  20171119_143602.jpg   107.23K   7 downloads

[Cook]

Hi Toryman.  I tried to get some pics but not really flash.  I'll try again tomorrow.  Cheers Ron

[toryman76]

Bit of an update. I decided to buy a new fork from dellow as I was convinced my original one was bent and worn. I bought a new pivot ball at the same time. I also sourced a NOS VL throw out bearing and as rexy suggested previously its a much more rounded face that mates to the pressure plate. Using the new ball, new fork and NOS bearing I fitted the setup to the motor while it's out of the car. I tried to achieve the measurements given in the tech note from exedy but I had to screw the ball in a lot more than the instruction suggested in order to achieve the hook dimension. As a comparison I put my old fork in. First thing I noticed was how loose the pins are on the throw out bearing compared to the new fork. I was able to achieve both measurements as per the tech note with my old fork. Perhaps the NOS bearing is a bit taller than my old one and the new ball is a better shape. Another thing I noticed was the bearing has a little bit of slop when it's slid over the nose of the gearbox. Is this normal? What should the tolerance be?

So now I'm even more confused! Photos to come.

[toryman76]

Here's some photos of both forks set to the 48mm hook measurement from the gearbox mounting face. The ball photo is where it ended up with the new fork.

Attached Files

•  20191116_173611_compress56.jpg   183.16K   5 downloads
•  20191116_173520_compress86.jpg   213.34K   5 downloads
•  20191116_171753_compress25.jpg   176.78K   5 downloads
•  20191116_171700_compress36.jpg   196.8K   4 downloads
•  20191116_174500_compress43.jpg   183.09K   5 downloads