After reading the "Difference between LX RTS & UC RTS ???" topic, I thought it might be a good idea to summarise one part of the conversation.
From what i could gather (please correct me if im wrong)
The best suspension set-up using standard holden parts would be:
UC upper control arms
LX RTS UCA mounting position
HX 1 tonner Stub Axles
A9X steering arm (are these avaliable from repco etc or do you have to buy expensive aftermarket copies?)
Any Lower control arm
Parts Bin suspension
Started by
_Sprog_
, Aug 11 2008 08:00 PM
76 replies to this topic
#2
_CHOPPER_
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Posted 13 August 2008 - 03:45 PM
Steering arms are from www.harrop.com.au, about $350 for the pair.
#3
MRLXSS
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Posted 13 August 2008 - 03:47 PM
Yeah mate, UC Steering arms would be the cheaper option... But the A9X ones are much better!
#4
_Sprog_
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Posted 14 August 2008 - 10:10 PM
can you buy hx tonner stubs new (or nos) or is it a wrecker job?
#5
mrlctorana
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Posted 16 August 2008 - 07:11 PM
Lucky I read this thread, have just read all the RTS threads and others and was about to post exactly the same question, lol.
Are there any differences between the HQ stubs and HX 1 Tonner stubs apart from the heat treatment and extra thickness on the HX?
Are there any differences between the HQ stubs and HX 1 Tonner stubs apart from the heat treatment and extra thickness on the HX?
#6
_Sprog_
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Posted 17 August 2008 - 06:48 PM
Just found www.stubtech.com.au
Im asking about repro A9X stubs.
Send them an email if your interested, im sure they would make some if they got enough interest.
Also, i got an email from tubular suspension saying they would make a torana set if they could get an order for 10 sets
Anyone interested ($1550 a set, need 50% deposit)
Im asking about repro A9X stubs.
Send them an email if your interested, im sure they would make some if they got enough interest.
Also, i got an email from tubular suspension saying they would make a torana set if they could get an order for 10 sets
Anyone interested ($1550 a set, need 50% deposit)
#7
_slr6000_
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Posted 06 September 2008 - 02:05 AM
Going with the parts bin selection the LH LCA would be a good choice as there a lot stronger than the LX and UC arms
#8
antelopeslr5000
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Posted 06 September 2008 - 10:01 AM
Going with the parts bin selection the LH LCA would be a good choice as there a lot stronger than the LX and UC arms
I wasn't aware of that. Good to know! What makes them a lot stronger?
#9
_slr6000_
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Posted 06 September 2008 - 12:03 PM
not sure on the exact thickness but they're made from 4mm steel compared to 2.5mm for the LX and UC
#11
_Squarepants_
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Posted 10 February 2009 - 06:53 PM
OK, so if using a HX Tonner stub axle or a CRS 2" drop jobby, are the caliper mounting holes the same as LH Torana or do you have to run H series brakes? I have a Hoppers 290mm kit to go on my UC cross member (to put in my LH), which include adaptor plates for the calipers. I could make new plates if required (or I could stick with UC stubs, but after coming this far, why do it half arsed?). Basically, will my Hoppers kit fit to the above mentioned stubs?
Also, Mat, Where do you get tubular control arms from? Are you getting them custom made or are they an of the shelf item? I have a full tubular trailing arm set fitted to the rear (adjustable upper {McDonald Bros}, I made the lowers), so a set for the front would suit nicely. Do you have them already? If so, have you any photo's of them?
Thanks again guys, love your work.
Also, Mat, Where do you get tubular control arms from? Are you getting them custom made or are they an of the shelf item? I have a full tubular trailing arm set fitted to the rear (adjustable upper {McDonald Bros}, I made the lowers), so a set for the front would suit nicely. Do you have them already? If so, have you any photo's of them?
Thanks again guys, love your work.
#12
antelopeslr5000
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Posted 10 February 2009 - 07:11 PM
Pretty sure that HX stub axles have the same caliper mount as LH Torana.
CRS stub axles you can get drilled to pretty much any caliper mount you desire.
CRS stub axles you can get drilled to pretty much any caliper mount you desire.
#13
View GaragePosted 10 February 2009 - 09:31 PM
The HX stubs do have the same spacing between the caliper mounting holes so the caliper will bolt on but the disc diameter and thus the placing of the caliper is different (hence the requirement to swap stubs). If you already have the Hoppers conversion kit stick with the UC stubs, you have nothing to gain by changing them.
#14
_Squarepants_
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Posted 15 February 2009 - 05:18 PM
Rogee! That makes sense, thanks.
I've just emailed Hoppers to see if they can supply a different adaptor plate to suit.
I would prefer to run the HX stubs if possible as from what I've read here I will gain strength/less flex and a better bump steer curve.
If it all plays out I will also look into a set of Harrop steering arms to go with it.
N.B. I just redrilled the UCA mounting holes in my UC K frame and managed to get them 1 5/16" (aprox. 33mm) lower than standard. This was as low as I could possibly get them. Just in case anyone is after a specific measurement to make a template or do the mod themselves.
I hope this is helpful.
I've just emailed Hoppers to see if they can supply a different adaptor plate to suit.
I would prefer to run the HX stubs if possible as from what I've read here I will gain strength/less flex and a better bump steer curve.
If it all plays out I will also look into a set of Harrop steering arms to go with it.
N.B. I just redrilled the UCA mounting holes in my UC K frame and managed to get them 1 5/16" (aprox. 33mm) lower than standard. This was as low as I could possibly get them. Just in case anyone is after a specific measurement to make a template or do the mod themselves.
I hope this is helpful.
#15
Posted 15 February 2009 - 06:12 PM
According to my info and everything I've read on this site you need the Harrop (A9X) steering arms to avoid getting worse bump steer using HX stubs, stick with the UC stubs and steering arms. There is a template somewhere here for lowering the UCA mounting holes which located them approx 25mm lower if I recall correctly.
#16
_Squarepants_
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Posted 16 February 2009 - 06:36 PM
Yep, that's right.
I've decided against the HX stubs as it will be an expensive exercise in regards to fitting my brakes.
Apparently the stubs push the wheel track out a bit as well.
I also saw the template idea here, but as you say, it was for a 25mm drop, putting them in the LX RTS position. I wanted to get them as low as possible.
I've decided against the HX stubs as it will be an expensive exercise in regards to fitting my brakes.
Apparently the stubs push the wheel track out a bit as well.
I also saw the template idea here, but as you say, it was for a 25mm drop, putting them in the LX RTS position. I wanted to get them as low as possible.
#17
_Squarepants_
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Posted 20 February 2009 - 04:25 PM
So I get the idea that you would only use the H series stubs if you were going to use H series brakes. Is this the case? Or is there any other advantages to them? Was I incorrect in the "better bump steer" idea?
Also, is it a good idea to run the UCA's as low as possible as I have gone for (I'm sure I read that in the last thread) or should I have gone for the LX RTS position?
I know that above mentioned template thread said he wanted some extra flat surface so the shims would sit properly but if using circular shims this would not be such an issue, would it?
Toranamat69, I'm sort of looking in your direction at the moment as you seem to have done the most research in this area
, but anyone else who knows anything is encouraged to provide some input. 76lxhatch, I appreciate your input so far, 
I'm just after a bit more detail please.
Also, is it a good idea to run the UCA's as low as possible as I have gone for (I'm sure I read that in the last thread) or should I have gone for the LX RTS position?
I know that above mentioned template thread said he wanted some extra flat surface so the shims would sit properly but if using circular shims this would not be such an issue, would it?
Toranamat69, I'm sort of looking in your direction at the moment as you seem to have done the most research in this area
, but anyone else who knows anything is encouraged to provide some input. 76lxhatch, I appreciate your input so far, I'm just after a bit more detail please.
#18
Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:20 PM
Those are my thoughts. I did a reasonable amount of research for my own purposes and settled on keeping the Torana stubs and using the Hoppers kit out of all the options within my budget (actually this one stretched it a bit!). I must say right here though that I haven't done nearly the research and testing that others such as Toranamat69 have.So I get the idea that you would only use the H series stubs if you were going to use H series brakes.
What I do know is that the HQ-WB stubs have 2 degrees difference in KPI (7 vs 9 on the Torana stubs if I recall correctly) which gives more negative camber straight off. They are also effectively drop stubs which lower the car 25-30mm. However the main issue I am aware of is the poor steering rack tie rod end geometry which the A9X (or Harrop reproduction) arms address at great expense. After addressing the steering geometry you still have to sort the other issues which costs more and I don't see any advantage once that's done as you would have spent just as much money if not more on a slightly lesser brake upgrade. I can't see how strength would be an issue as the other components around the stub would have to be more of a weak link.
If you were going to spend big money or had plenty of time and engineering equipment at your disposal there would be even better options I'm sure but from the parts bin or at least on some sort of budget there are limitations. Again I don't have heaps of hands-on experience but I do find the topic interesting and have picked up most of the above from various different sources.
#19
_rorym_
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Posted 20 February 2009 - 08:15 PM
I know that above mentioned template thread said he wanted some extra flat surface so the shims would sit properly but if using circular shims this would not be such an issue, would it?
I used washers...They dont fall out then.
R
#20
_Squarepants_
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Posted 08 March 2009 - 06:00 PM
Yeah mate, UC Steering arms would be the cheaper option... But the A9X ones are much better!
I hate to flog a dead horse
, but is there an advantage to using A9X (or Harrop) steering arms on UC stub axles?Also, just to confirm, the LH LCA's are made of a thicker material than the UC LCA's (2.5mm/4mm approx), thus they would be stronger. The only thing being, the LH arms don't have the extra cut out to allow easy shocky access. I am going to look into cutting a similar hole into my LH LCA's like what is in the UC arms.
#21
_Squarepants_
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Posted 08 March 2009 - 06:08 PM
I used washers...They dont fall out then.
R
Using standard flat washers would limit the increments of adjustment available, wouldn't it? Depending on the thickness of washers...
Or do you cut round washers out of shim material?
#22
_Squarepants_
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Posted 08 March 2009 - 06:28 PM
Also, is it a good idea to run the UCA's as low as possible as I have gone for (I'm sure I read that in the last thread) or should I have gone for the LX RTS position?
Any other suggestions with this idea? I have drilled mine approx 33mm lower than the standard UC position.
Thanks guys.
#23
_cruiza_
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 07:34 PM
Hi guys my first post so please dont shoot me if you disagree / think me wrong.
I have been reseaching this for a very long time and talked to some guys who seem to know a bit about, former HDT mechanics, Harry Firth even although to be honest he wasnt to impressed when I said I was using Koni shocks instead of bilsteen. Anyway here is what I have gathered.
Any subframe, weld bracing plate to underside, relocate upper control arm holes to lower position, race teams experimented with different locations Brocks 79 car was 27mm however wheel diamenter can mean this figure needs to be revised.
Lower control arm any can enlarge hole so as to be able to drop shock for easy removal.
Upper control arm UC only with setback ball joint.
Steering rack UC has solid mounts but slow ratio, LH / LX faster ratio but need to make solid bushes up.
Stub axles, any HQ to WB, they are all the same part numbers changed when molds wore out, one tonner were heat treated so the go if racing the car. Swap these left for right so as to keep standard mounting location for brake caliper. Which ever way you go I suggest you get them crack tested. this change will lower the car 25 - 30mm and widen track by about 50 mm as well as giving an extra 2 degrees of negative chamber, this means you will use less shims for wheel alignment.
Brakes Calipers Ok this one lots of different ideas. A9X used HX calipers swapped left to right so bleed nippel at top, but these need a bit ground off for clearance, Alturnatively, that I perfer, keep alloy bit from torana caliper (PBR brand) and throw away cast steel bit then find a set of PBR brand calipers from HQ - WB and throw away alloy bit bolt cast steel bit to torana alloy bit. Now given that both HQ - WB and Torana calipers seem to fit either way you go I think ( but need to confrim) that after market 2 pot or 4 pot confersion not an issue
Disc brakes Standard HQ - WB or even better slotted new ones, I have heard but not confrimed that drilled rotors prone to cracking.
Springs Frim and standard height, lowest point on front subframe will be approx 100mm from ground as it is mine on 14 inch rims was exactly 100mm
Shocks I used Koni ajustables on hardest setting but Harry Firth told me to throw them away and get custom blisteens, which is now first on my to do list after I win lotto.
Steering arms UC torana (RTS) better then LX LH but replica genuine A9X ones from Harrops considered to be by far the best with this setup.
Final comments I think the UC (RTS) upper control arm, HQ - WB stub axles and Harrop A9X steering arms should be looked upon as a setup, ie do it all or not at all. If doing it all is a bit to much work then just use a complete UC torana front end.
Hope this helps There are other setups etc out there with custom bits etc but you really need to know your stuff to do that.
I have been reseaching this for a very long time and talked to some guys who seem to know a bit about, former HDT mechanics, Harry Firth even although to be honest he wasnt to impressed when I said I was using Koni shocks instead of bilsteen. Anyway here is what I have gathered.
Any subframe, weld bracing plate to underside, relocate upper control arm holes to lower position, race teams experimented with different locations Brocks 79 car was 27mm however wheel diamenter can mean this figure needs to be revised.
Lower control arm any can enlarge hole so as to be able to drop shock for easy removal.
Upper control arm UC only with setback ball joint.
Steering rack UC has solid mounts but slow ratio, LH / LX faster ratio but need to make solid bushes up.
Stub axles, any HQ to WB, they are all the same part numbers changed when molds wore out, one tonner were heat treated so the go if racing the car. Swap these left for right so as to keep standard mounting location for brake caliper. Which ever way you go I suggest you get them crack tested. this change will lower the car 25 - 30mm and widen track by about 50 mm as well as giving an extra 2 degrees of negative chamber, this means you will use less shims for wheel alignment.
Brakes Calipers Ok this one lots of different ideas. A9X used HX calipers swapped left to right so bleed nippel at top, but these need a bit ground off for clearance, Alturnatively, that I perfer, keep alloy bit from torana caliper (PBR brand) and throw away cast steel bit then find a set of PBR brand calipers from HQ - WB and throw away alloy bit bolt cast steel bit to torana alloy bit. Now given that both HQ - WB and Torana calipers seem to fit either way you go I think ( but need to confrim) that after market 2 pot or 4 pot confersion not an issue
Disc brakes Standard HQ - WB or even better slotted new ones, I have heard but not confrimed that drilled rotors prone to cracking.
Springs Frim and standard height, lowest point on front subframe will be approx 100mm from ground as it is mine on 14 inch rims was exactly 100mm
Shocks I used Koni ajustables on hardest setting but Harry Firth told me to throw them away and get custom blisteens, which is now first on my to do list after I win lotto.
Steering arms UC torana (RTS) better then LX LH but replica genuine A9X ones from Harrops considered to be by far the best with this setup.
Final comments I think the UC (RTS) upper control arm, HQ - WB stub axles and Harrop A9X steering arms should be looked upon as a setup, ie do it all or not at all. If doing it all is a bit to much work then just use a complete UC torana front end.
Hope this helps There are other setups etc out there with custom bits etc but you really need to know your stuff to do that.
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#24
TerrA LX
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Posted 15 March 2009 - 12:43 AM
I hate to flog a dead horse
You would select which ever arm that would bring the tie rod ends and rack level at ride height so neither is better just which ever one suites your application.
I reset my standard ones (I used someones jig) and saved hundreds.
#25
rodomo
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Posted 15 March 2009 - 12:55 AM
I reset (bent?) my standard ones (I used someones jig) (press?) and saved hundreds.
Not picking, just asking.
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