Jump in the tardis, go back to 1974 and 1977, bring back a new L34 and A9X straight off the showroom floor, line them up around a track and what you will have is a race to see if you can blow up the standard sumped A9X engine before you destroy the brakes or diff in the L34. As John Bowe said at Bathurst in 95, "these are the unemotional facts".
The Great L34 A9X debate
Started by
REDA9X
, Apr 02 2009 09:18 AM
582 replies to this topic
#327
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Posted 14 March 2012 - 09:44 PM
A reasonable comment on the relative cars Red, I recently had occasion to give a ride in my L34 to an A9X owner. He was amazed that a stock 69,000 km L34 could easily turn an indicated 7000rpm through the gears with no problem at all. Absolutely stock down to original factory headers and not the after market HM version. The ability to rev quickly and cleanly really surprised him. Outer knows this car and can attest to its originality and correctness. To rephrase a previous poster," the cars are myths and legends". There are so many people today who have never seen an original example of either L34 or A9X and have only read or heard of them and their race history. 2 Bathurst wins each plus many other Champioship and Series victories would on the surface be a sign of equality in achievments. I guess it really comes down to an individual owners preference. Go the Torana,s.... 
#328
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Posted 14 March 2012 - 10:07 PM
and you numero unoA reasonable comment on the relative cars Red, I recently had occasion to give a ride in my L34 to an A9X owner. He was amazed that a stock 69,000 km L34 could easily turn an indicated 7000rpm through the gears with no problem at all. Absolutely stock down to original factory headers and not the after market HM version. The ability to rev quickly and cleanly really surprised him. Outer knows this car and can attest to its originality and correctness. To rephrase a previous poster," the cars are myths and legends". There are so many people today who have never seen an original example of either L34 or A9X and have only read or heard of them and their race history. 2 Bathurst wins each plus many other Champioship and Series victories would on the surface be a sign of equality in achievments. I guess it really comes down to an individual owners preference. Go the Torana,s....
are only missing an a9x hatch
to complete your collection
hey hav,nt seen ya in a while
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#329
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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:30 AM
7000rpm out of a std L34!! Can you say hand grenade quick enough? Besides being one of the worst designed POS engines around, the 308 was/is just a lotto ticket. Sustained duration revs over 5000rpm for any std L34 or 308 you need a good supply of replacement engines and a lucky rabbits foot. I learnt the hard way that holding 5500rpms in my old L34 soon meant a pull-down, bearings,crank grind and a realisation that I couldn't get close to my mates fat genuine phase3 fraud that could pull a genuine 6500rpm on the std factory motor.
I guess Wheels magazine just didn't want to print the truth about the 7000rpm 150mph L34 in their road tests at the time because Holden told them they were not allowed to print their actual performance ability. LOL
Really its just far too funny that reality has totally been lost in the need for creating a good myth.
If you believe the fantasy it would then seem that some people seem to think their factory showroom L34 was even faster than Brocks race winning L34 that had 380Hp at best.
I guess Wheels magazine just didn't want to print the truth about the 7000rpm 150mph L34 in their road tests at the time because Holden told them they were not allowed to print their actual performance ability. LOL
Really its just far too funny that reality has totally been lost in the need for creating a good myth.
If you believe the fantasy it would then seem that some people seem to think their factory showroom L34 was even faster than Brocks race winning L34 that had 380Hp at best.
#330
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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:17 PM
There is a difference between indicated and actual RPM thats for sure. My 253 SS regularly reved to an indicated 7000RPM, perhaps the genuine L34 Rods it had fitted helped.
When Sports Car World or whatever magazine it was tested the L34 they had no sanctioning from Holden anyway, so they would have printed exactly what they saw and recorded, not something they were told to. Remember they couldn't even get an L34 from holden at the time.
Anyone who has watched Brocks qualifying lap from 1979 on the DVD or youtube will know what sort of revs the race cars were actually capable of.
When Sports Car World or whatever magazine it was tested the L34 they had no sanctioning from Holden anyway, so they would have printed exactly what they saw and recorded, not something they were told to. Remember they couldn't even get an L34 from holden at the time.
Anyone who has watched Brocks qualifying lap from 1979 on the DVD or youtube will know what sort of revs the race cars were actually capable of.
#331
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Posted 15 March 2012 - 02:38 PM
Be interesting the Harry Firth 308 V8 that was in the Pink GMH LJ XU-1 Prototype that was used at Calder on the 31/5/1972 then at Lang Lang in GMH Land.
The Pink LJ had a bleprinted and balanced 308, with a big cam and head work and rev to 6500 rpm each gear, be interesting how Harrys Pink LJ XU-1 would go on a track against a L34 with its Repco 308 V8.
The Pink LJ had a bleprinted and balanced 308, with a big cam and head work and rev to 6500 rpm each gear, be interesting how Harrys Pink LJ XU-1 would go on a track against a L34 with its Repco 308 V8.
#332
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Posted 15 March 2012 - 08:29 PM
Yup its hurts owners and they may find it laughable but Holden actually told the truth.
The factory L34 never had better engine performance than the factory SLR5000, in fact its performance suffered against the std 308 because the durability components needed for homologation (factory L34) didn't match. I remember at idle my L34 sure sounded tougher and had a lot more mechanical noise than my std pre 27a 308 hatch. (mainly due to the headers,pistons) . But racing against that bloody Fraud I can assure anyone that it never ever went harder than my std pre-27a hatch - end of story.
This all comes down to the consistent BS you see regurgitated that the std factory L34 was some super performance engine. It wasn't. As the best engine builders will tell you if your want more HP its all - get it in - get it out - breathing - breathing.
Take nothing away from the L34 for 1974/75 it sure was a great performance car.
Yes like we did with all Torana's it could be hot-rodded and made to go much harder, but the fact remains ..... from the showroom floor the factory L34 was no Fraud Phase3 no matter how much owners try to explore the myth that it had supercar performance from the showroom floor.
The L34 was truly (and truthfully) only about having the POS 308 get some much needed Durability Components Homologated for the racecars. .... End of debate.
The factory L34 never had better engine performance than the factory SLR5000, in fact its performance suffered against the std 308 because the durability components needed for homologation (factory L34) didn't match. I remember at idle my L34 sure sounded tougher and had a lot more mechanical noise than my std pre 27a 308 hatch. (mainly due to the headers,pistons) . But racing against that bloody Fraud I can assure anyone that it never ever went harder than my std pre-27a hatch - end of story.
This all comes down to the consistent BS you see regurgitated that the std factory L34 was some super performance engine. It wasn't. As the best engine builders will tell you if your want more HP its all - get it in - get it out - breathing - breathing.
Take nothing away from the L34 for 1974/75 it sure was a great performance car.
Yes like we did with all Torana's it could be hot-rodded and made to go much harder, but the fact remains ..... from the showroom floor the factory L34 was no Fraud Phase3 no matter how much owners try to explore the myth that it had supercar performance from the showroom floor.
The L34 was truly (and truthfully) only about having the POS 308 get some much needed Durability Components Homologated for the racecars. .... End of debate.
#333
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Posted 15 March 2012 - 09:33 PM
The manifold and valve springs were the biggest obstacles for revving to 7000 I can't see it without spacer plates and porting. Also you would need a very healthy cam to rev that hard, only the race option pack had anything like that.
#334
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Posted 15 March 2012 - 09:36 PM
Be interesting the Harry Firth 308 V8 that was in the Pink GMH LJ XU-1 Prototype that was used at Calder on the 31/5/1972 then at Lang Lang in GMH Land.
The Pink LJ had a bleprinted and balanced 308, with a big cam and head work and rev to 6500 rpm each gear, be interesting how Harrys Pink LJ XU-1 would go on a track against a L34 with its Repco 308 V8.
never miss an oportunity
#335
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Posted 15 March 2012 - 11:41 PM
To young to own one when they were new or see them on a race track. The reason I love the Torana is because of both these cars. To win Bathurst 4 from 6 attempts is pretty dominating. Personally I'm not to bothered by all the facts written, said or otherwise, both of the road cars deserve their place in history as the greatest of all muscle cars (I'm sure a phase 3 owner would debate that statement).
"The L34 was truly (and truthfully) only about having the POS 308 get some much needed Durability Components Homologated for the racecars. .... End of debate. "
LXSS350, there will be no end to the debate as you should never let the facts get in the way of a good yarn. This has been 14 pages of a good yarn.
"The L34 was truly (and truthfully) only about having the POS 308 get some much needed Durability Components Homologated for the racecars. .... End of debate. "
LXSS350, there will be no end to the debate as you should never let the facts get in the way of a good yarn. This has been 14 pages of a good yarn.
#336
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Posted 16 March 2012 - 12:33 AM
eyepeeler
The Torana is a total classic and its little wonder its become so desirable.
Eventually I sorted that smart-ass Fraud owner out when I put a chev, m22 rockcrusher, 9" into the ss hatch and blew him into the weeds. The boat anchor 308 went to where Holden always should have sent them - The Scrap metal bin. The only reason to use a 308 is for licensing or authenticity.
The Torana is a total classic and its little wonder its become so desirable.
Eventually I sorted that smart-ass Fraud owner out when I put a chev, m22 rockcrusher, 9" into the ss hatch and blew him into the weeds. The boat anchor 308 went to where Holden always should have sent them - The Scrap metal bin. The only reason to use a 308 is for licensing or authenticity.
#337
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Posted 16 March 2012 - 12:37 AM
never miss an oportunity
Yeah Red
but it all lead up to the Racing A9X's the peak of Torana's development
#338
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Posted 16 March 2012 - 08:48 AM
Blasphemer go to the back of the room and hang your head in shame the 350 had its chance to beat the 308 at bathurst and failed yes failedeyepeeler
The Torana is a total classic and its little wonder its become so desirable.
Eventually I sorted that smart-ass Fraud owner out when I put a chev, m22 rockcrusher, 9" into the ss hatch and blew him into the weeds. The boat anchor 308 went to where Holden always should have sent them - The Scrap metal bin. The only reason to use a 308 is for licensing or authenticity.
Edited by outer control, 16 March 2012 - 08:51 AM.
#339
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Posted 16 March 2012 - 09:16 AM
sounds like someone had some bad experiences with the plastic, I on the other hand have had wonderful experiences with the plastic as long as you treat your engine within boundrys of its build, why would it fail.
why would anyone compare a factory L34 against a GTHO/3 in a Hp torque way, the supercar scare ceased the HP game in 72.
A sensible comparison would be an 6th month 74 XB falcon Gt which still had more power but also more weight, please compare apples with apples
why would anyone compare a factory L34 against a GTHO/3 in a Hp torque way, the supercar scare ceased the HP game in 72.
A sensible comparison would be an 6th month 74 XB falcon Gt which still had more power but also more weight, please compare apples with apples
#340
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Posted 16 March 2012 - 09:44 AM
I wouldn't have a Fraud if you gave me one inc the phase3. Can't stand them they are just ugly fat horrible things.
But I will be the first to admit its engine was the only Australian true full factory package from the muscle car era. It took me nearly $18k in the late 70's money to leave him wanting. Credit where credit is due. 308's you can have them and pour as much into them as you want. I have a 308 (355 stroker) that has 680Hp at 8000rpm (racetrack 13.1 comp) version in the shed if you want? We spent $30k on it 16 years ago and ran it twice before threw it out for an 850Hp stroker chev.
But I will be the first to admit its engine was the only Australian true full factory package from the muscle car era. It took me nearly $18k in the late 70's money to leave him wanting. Credit where credit is due. 308's you can have them and pour as much into them as you want. I have a 308 (355 stroker) that has 680Hp at 8000rpm (racetrack 13.1 comp) version in the shed if you want? We spent $30k on it 16 years ago and ran it twice before threw it out for an 850Hp stroker chev.
#341
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Posted 16 March 2012 - 12:13 PM
The factory L34 never had better engine performance than the factory SLR5000, in fact its performance suffered against the std 308 because the durability components needed for homologation (factory L34) didn't match.
I don't really think this statement rings true..Yes the L34 engine didn't perform much better then the stock L31 engine when it had the factory air cleaner and exhaust setup..but if you removed those two items and played with the timing it became a much faster engine..the stock heads on the L34 were much improved over the standard L31 and not just from a durability standpoint..they breathed fairly well, and doing the same mods to a stock L31 didn't make it nearly as fast as the L34 engine..if you added a bigger holley and cam much like what was available from the L34 HO package then you had quite a fast engine which was not only a faster but with the rod/piston packge and baffled sump..a much stronger engine. You obviously didn't know enough back then to get the best out of your L34.
This all comes down to the consistent BS you see regurgitated that the std factory L34 was some super performance engine. It wasn't. As the best engine builders will tell you if your want more HP its all - get it in - get it out - breathing - breathing
Wrong again..it was a performance engine but as it was released in its standard form it was quite choked by the standard headers/aircleaner/carb..factory ignition timing. Which was all purposely done by GMH as they didn't want another supercar scare with this model. To get it in - get it out - breathing - breathing all you needed to do was get rid of the stock exhaust/carb and set timing..if you really wanted it to go, you could replace the cam or if you were in the know buy a HO package for it which came with carb/filter/cam/rockers/springs. All the rest of the engine was already there..it had a balanced and strengthend bottom end.. (rods/pistons) and it had nice heads..(ported big valve)
Yes like we did with all Torana's it could be hot-rodded and made to go much harder, but the fact remains ..... from the showroom floor the factory L34 was no Fraud Phase3 no matter how much owners try to explore the myth that it had supercar performance from the showroom floor.
Nor was it ever meant to be..the phase 3 was built before and up to the supercar scare days and manufacturers could get away with much more then.
The L34 was truly (and truthfully) only about having the POS 308 get some much needed Durability Components Homologated for the racecars. .... End of debate.
If it was such a POS why did it win so many bathurst titles against bigger capacity cars such as the 351 falcons?..they might have had more power in a straight line but that didn't make them the better race car as history has shown..and these days getting a 308 to perform is easy with stroker kits and alloy heads..not everybody wants to chop up their LH/X just to fit a chev..although i am guilty of doing it myself at one point heh.
#342
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Posted 16 March 2012 - 01:27 PM
I am a old Torana fan from 1972/73 so your talking to the converted. LOL
Your agreeing that it couldn't perform any better than a 5000 (your words where - choked) ...... Then your arguing WHAT EXACTLY????
No one has ever said that the L34 (or any engine) couldn't be made to perform better than what you could buy off the factory showroom floor. The so called debate/myth was that the std L34 sold from showroom had some form of super performance.
It didn't but YES it is true that by hot-rodding it from its std L34 engine you certainly could make it go faster.
We are talking FACTORY STD not racecar equipment or aftermarket hot-rodding, blueprinting or any other non standard tom foolery.
Rather than me justify the reality of the L34 read the track tests and performance figures that where done when the L34 and SLR5000 where brand new. I can scan a few 70's mags road/track tests if you really think the world is part of the anti 7000rpm 150mph L34 conspiracy theory. LOL
Not sure what you do, but I have never cut one thing up on a Torana to fit a chev into it (LX). Its all bolt on ,,,, well whenever I have done the small block conversion. Hell I never even trim the firewall lip. Never done one but maybe you have to cut stuff with a big block chev conversion?
The reason Toranas won so much was that the Frauds are heavy horrible POS.
Also we had Brock and the best of merry-men. They had Moffet who just cried a lot when he couldn't win. LOL
Your agreeing that it couldn't perform any better than a 5000 (your words where - choked) ...... Then your arguing WHAT EXACTLY????
No one has ever said that the L34 (or any engine) couldn't be made to perform better than what you could buy off the factory showroom floor. The so called debate/myth was that the std L34 sold from showroom had some form of super performance.
It didn't but YES it is true that by hot-rodding it from its std L34 engine you certainly could make it go faster.
We are talking FACTORY STD not racecar equipment or aftermarket hot-rodding, blueprinting or any other non standard tom foolery.
Rather than me justify the reality of the L34 read the track tests and performance figures that where done when the L34 and SLR5000 where brand new. I can scan a few 70's mags road/track tests if you really think the world is part of the anti 7000rpm 150mph L34 conspiracy theory. LOL
Not sure what you do, but I have never cut one thing up on a Torana to fit a chev into it (LX). Its all bolt on ,,,, well whenever I have done the small block conversion. Hell I never even trim the firewall lip. Never done one but maybe you have to cut stuff with a big block chev conversion?
The reason Toranas won so much was that the Frauds are heavy horrible POS.
Also we had Brock and the best of merry-men. They had Moffet who just cried a lot when he couldn't win. LOL
#343
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Posted 16 March 2012 - 02:59 PM
Your agreeing that it couldn't perform any better than a 5000 (your words where - choked) ...... Then your arguing WHAT EXACTLY????
Im not agreeing with your blanket statement that the L34 engine was no better then a STD L31 motor..because you are wrong. You couldn't just "hotrod" as you call it..a stock L31 SL/R engine and expect it to go anywhere near as well as a L34 motor. Besides..i'd hardly call replacing the stock aircleaner/headers and adjusting the timing "hotrodding"..
We are talking FACTORY STD not racecar equipment or aftermarket hot-rodding, blueprinting or any other non standard tom foolery.
Im sorry but are we talking about the L34 or a L31 here?? because FACTORY STD the L34 came with let me repeat..Big Valve ported heads..a factory blueprinted bottom end with stronger rods and pistons and a baffled sump and a lot of other little things i couldnt even be bothered listing.. unique to the L34 engine. Lets not forgot that the L34 was a homologation tool used to get these parts through to the factory racecars..so your definition of STD is a bit warped..the L34 engine was not a factory STD 5LTR engine it was a performance motor.
Rather than me justify the reality of the L34 read the track tests and performance figures that where done when the L34 and SLR5000 where brand new. I can scan a few 70's mags road/track tests if you really think the world is part of the anti 7000rpm 150mph L34 conspiracy theory. LOL
I dont need you to justify anything to me because ive owned my own L34 spec motor and i know exactly whats inside of one and how much better then a stock L31 5LTR engine they are.
Not sure what you do, but I have never cut one thing up on a Torana to fit a chev into it (LX). Its all bolt on ,,,, well whenever I have done the small block conversion. Hell I never even trim the firewall lip. Never done one but maybe you have to cut stuff with a big block chev conversion?
Many people cut down the frame rails in the engine bay and the firewall lip to make custom exhausts and ignitions for a SBC fit properly into the LH/X if they do it properly..something i don't like having to do but it makes them much easier to work on.
#344
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Posted 16 March 2012 - 05:38 PM
Yup fancy and sounds impressive but it means zip .... because it didn't go faster than the std motor in the SLR5000.
It was a durability engine that with extra bits on top of the std L34 that everyone could buy could be made to go harder than a std SLR5000.
Otherwise sorry it just didn't go harder in std form.
I will scan the track tests from Wheels. Please don't then say you had a CAMS licence and had the secret squirrel bathurst racing super pack with cam,holley etc because that's not the std factory L34.
It was a durability engine that with extra bits on top of the std L34 that everyone could buy could be made to go harder than a std SLR5000.
Otherwise sorry it just didn't go harder in std form.
I will scan the track tests from Wheels. Please don't then say you had a CAMS licence and had the secret squirrel bathurst racing super pack with cam,holley etc because that's not the std factory L34.
Edited by LXSS350, 16 March 2012 - 05:48 PM.
#345
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Posted 16 March 2012 - 07:03 PM
It was a durability engine that with extra bits on top of the std L34 that everyone could buy could be made to go harder than a std SLR5000.
Mate you're a genius, that must be why people for so many years fitted L34 heads onto their 308's because they wanted the extra durability they offered..
#346
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Posted 16 March 2012 - 07:39 PM
HEY LXSS350, why don,t you do us all a favour and go for a long drive, mate, and leave this disscussion to the experts, this debate is going nowhere at the moment, we all can molester our cars and put chevs in them if we want to, but then there would,nt be any genuine cars left to argue about!!!!
#347
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Posted 16 March 2012 - 09:16 PM
Ihave dyno sheets with 7000 rpm on them and the only thig that shit itself was the seal in rebuilt single outlet waterpump,the dyno sheets are in another thread on this forum and its standard bore standard rods standard heads and manifold7000rpm out of a std L34!! Can you say hand grenade quick enough? Besides being one of the worst designed POS engines around, the 308 was/is just a lotto ticket. Sustained duration revs over 5000rpm for any std L34 or 308 you need a good supply of replacement engines and a lucky rabbits foot. I learnt the hard way that holding 5500rpms in my old L34 soon meant a pull-down, bearings,crank grind and a realisation that I couldn't get close to my mates fat genuine phase3 fraud that could pull a genuine 6500rpm on the std factory motor.
I guess Wheels magazine just didn't want to print the truth about the 7000rpm 150mph L34 in their road tests at the time because Holden told them they were not allowed to print their actual performance ability. LOL
Really its just far too funny that reality has totally been lost in the need for creating a good myth.
If you believe the fantasy it would then seem that some people seem to think their factory showroom L34 was even faster than Brocks race winning L34 that had 380Hp at best.
#348
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Posted 16 March 2012 - 09:33 PM
Well it looks like I will have to eat my words and bow to the great knowledge of LXSS350, Ran it up on a dyno to check revs and guess what? We fell 200 rpm short of 7000. I will now crawl back into my hole and source a 350 Chev to fix this car . Why did GMH stop offering cars with 350 Chevs and rely on the 308 to carry the flag ? I have had nearly as many 308,s as I,ve had hot breakfasts and never once thought a Chev was the answer. Ever heard of Chevy Sh!t?
#349
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Posted 16 March 2012 - 10:31 PM
I have a chev in my jet boat and does a good job but would not like to rev it past 6000 rpm,s even if it couldHEY LXSS350, why don,t you do us all a favour and go for a long drive, mate, and leave this disscussion to the experts, this debate is going nowhere at the moment, we all can molester our cars and put chevs in them if we want to, but then there would,nt be any genuine cars left to argue about!!!!
#350
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Posted 16 March 2012 - 10:35 PM
Go back and read the whole debate and you will understand why holdens only let certain hobbled cars into press handsYup fancy and sounds impressive but it means zip .... because it didn't go faster than the std motor in the SLR5000.
It was a durability engine that with extra bits on top of the std L34 that everyone could buy could be made to go harder than a std SLR5000.
Otherwise sorry it just didn't go harder in std form.
I will scan the track tests from Wheels. Please don't then say you had a CAMS licence and had the secret squirrel bathurst racing super pack with cam,holley etc because that's not the std factory L34.
The v8 xu1 was killed by dickhead journos 2 years prior
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