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The Great L34 A9X debate


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#401 myss427

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 02:15 PM

I can get a small valved 253 with a mild cam and LT1 valve springs reving to 7k every time, not that it makes any power but revs have nothing to do with cam or head size.


Standard valve train will shit itself at those revs, I have had push rods press through the steel rockers at just over 6000. Also a LT1 valve springs are a borderline spring for 7000. It would probably valve bounce or valve float before then. Even Gen 4 motors with their more advanced head spring combo die at 6300 and need double springs and rollers to go to 7000. I have had many mild to wild 308 over 20 plus years and its always been a generous taco more so for 7. You need cams with lots of lift and heads to make it work with the extra lift, otherwise why bother you just wont make power.

#402 _outer control_

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 02:22 AM

A9X Review

In part, I do agree with you, the HO kit was a factory supplied item and is listed in the parts book. The thing is it was not factory fitted though, it was dealer fitted. You could actually buy any part of that kit, say the carby and fit it to your car. You could also go into Holden and buy it overthe counter if you had the $1500 asking price in 74. Dealers were actually warned about fitting these to other vehicles long after the L34 was gone.
My point is whilst fitting this kit to any other 308 at the time would not have achieved the results that it would bolting it onto an L34 engine, the part is not L34 specific or factory fitted, therefore it can't be included under "stock factory L34".

In 1979 dealers were sent a note trying to sell the HO kit and also offering labels to put on parts stating it was illegal to use on road cars

#403 _LH8VD69_

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 02:48 AM

Standard valve train will shit itself at those revs, I have had push rods press through the steel rockers at just over 6000. Also a LT1 valve springs are a borderline spring for 7000. It would probably valve bounce or valve float before then. Even Gen 4 motors with their more advanced head spring combo die at 6300 and need double springs and rollers to go to 7000. I have had many mild to wild 308 over 20 plus years and its always been a generous taco more so for 7. You need cams with lots of lift and heads to make it work with the extra lift, otherwise why bother you just wont make power.


My LS1 had a cam,otr, underdrive done by Active Automotive here in Perth and they changed out the valve gear but to my surprise used single springs and Eddie assured me his springs would be the goods. The engine revs freely to 7300 where the computer cuts it out. No dramas

#404 _LXSS350_

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 04:53 AM

This is only my (uneducated) opinion, and therefore should be taken very lightly, but I don't think the H.O. option should be lumped in with V8 LJs, Turbos or scuff plates/pinstripes/flux capacitors installed at the dealers. This package was put together by Holden partly to homologate certain bits for racing,(oil cooler, carby spacer) and is part of "SL/R 5000 With L34 option incorporating 'High Output Package' Parts Catalogue Supplement" (M37536). If we include the Amendment Bulletin, the H.O. option comprises of 35 Holden part numbers. This catalog even has an exploded view diagram of the 780 Holley.
So my car may not be standard. It may have been "hot rodded". But it was hot rodded by the factory.


No doubt the parts themselves had factory support, but it was a balancing act for Holden. Its was clear to Holden that dealers would sell their sole for any sale, but holden definitely didn't want those parts going into road cars. However being penny pinchers, they also knew it was hard to stop/police without upsetting why they used that distribution channel. To help entry numbers for the ATC and Bathurst, the use of dealers and the parts operation made for easier distribution and support of private race teams. Of course this meant all dealers had access ....... even out the back of Burke. The alternative was make it harder for teams to get that factory support and result in more expense.

So you had two different entities, the dealers who do anything to sell a car and then Holden who wanted the prestige and flow on effect of winning Bathurst. Unlike the 60's it was a strange time in the rules and politics, but as always Holden just wanted to win another Bathurst over Fraud. However the company had a social conscience conflict and their tight ass bean counters where cutting & counting costs every day. Otherwise today we would have a GTR-X in the shed. After the 1973 supercar political headlines, Holden definitely didn't want to get dragged into the super fast road car fire again. As it was still fresh last thing Holden needed/wanted in 1974/75 was headlines of speed hoons and an L34 on the news wrapped around a lamp post with the 20 something occupants all injured or dead. Lets face it at 130mph you need better brakes than what was on the L34. Having driven a standard Fraud Phase3 between Coolgardie and Southern Cross I can tell you that corners and kangeroo's are not surprises you needed while winding it out.(least I for one like bloody good brakes ..... as did old KB in the 9 Camaro ... LOL)

This political hot car thing went on for a decade (until PB setup) and was also why the A9X was slipped under the radar with little fanfare and attention. In truth at $11k Holden found it extremely tough to sell them and lets face it besides the lumps and bump fibreglass it had a std 27a pollution chocked 308. That alone should show people the mentality of Holden at the time. Because of its racecar looks, the better handling, better brakes was simply ignored and not promoted in a public way. Mainly because of volumes, but also because the look of the car and relationship to racing might reflect badly on the companys desire for a more responsible image. Those of age would remember they mainly promoted the higher volume HZ GTS, a mild looking 4 door taxi with its rts and 4 wheel discs. Yet they contradicted themselves with its 78/79 Bathurst ads which where all Torana A9X Hatch images.

The solution came with the relationship with Brock, as it gave them the bathurst exposure and seperated them from directly being involved in hot rodding dunnydores. Although ultimately they supported Brock and supplied cars to suit, the fact was it was a very relieved Holden to get rid of a small volume market segment (hard to profit) along with the political responsibility. Yet they could still ride the Brock dunnydore coat tales of Bathurst Success.

Winning at the Mountain really had a big effect on sales.

Back in the day when Australian manufacturing was politically supported and encouraged (by protection measures), those measures also had a rebound effect on Holdens costs of importing chevs and pushed the need to develop a local engine. So of course it meant the use of chevs had to stop with the HQ. But personally I have always wondered why GM couldn't have licensed the Chev to be manufactured here so we could tap into the big factory and after-market parts and knowledge that had existed since 1955 in the USA. Trying to re-invent the wheel and get close to a small block that had been around since 1955 was fraught with heartache and headache, especially with the design Holden chose with its poor oiling system,head design,sealing,odd firing order etc. As we know many things where slowly fixed, but how many races ended during that period because of the 308's inherant poor design issues?

Funny in 2012 the old plastic is long dead and gone and we are back to where we started except using the latest chev motors. Manufacturing has almost ceased to exist, as Australia has finally realised its true market size and that we simply can't compete on a world scale. Mind you that's also because most of us can't live on a bag of rice either ..... LOL

Probably for some who are younger its hard to fathom or understand today, but we had pretty much nothing off the self for hot rodding 308's until the L34. Pre L34 everything was custom and bloody expensive (if you couldn't do it yourself). Almost no information was available and hot rod engine shops just laughed if you asked about the 308. When I modified a 308 (before the L34) I adapted basic engine modification information from people like Bill Jenkins, Bill Fisher, Bob Warr and still have all their old 70's and 80's books. Of course chevs are a different animal but the relativity of breathing,rods,pistons,clearances,carbys etc made for some starting point. It was all trial and error and I'll be the first to say it was more error and cost than success.

So for those like me (no Harry Firth) who didn't have big piles of money, it was always tough not to go to a chev (except for licensing reasons). At the time 500Hp chev was easy, 500Hp from a 308 was an impossibility. The amount of HQ heads we trashed when we where trying to put in better valves,springs and bigger porting would be laughable today. (water leak - welder). Normally if viable we adapted parts from chevs enormous catalog. I remember before the L34 we hand modified the pickup tube size, sump with windage tray/scraper, modified return galleries,modified oil pumps all to get all that oil back into the sump and out of the top end. Everytime we held big revs 6k+ we had big issues and fought the poor design for years. I sure am glad there was no video of me in the shed doing stuff I had no right to be doing Ha-haa.


So not only as a Torana fanatic but as a Holden man we owe a hell of a lot to the L34.

Just one other clarification is that personally today I could never modify anything at all on any genuine A9X, L34, XU-1 or SS, SLR 5000, GTR.

Used to do it in the 70's and 80's but not now. However I have absolutely no problem in doing a replica and going mad with the gas axe and hammer to fit what ever will make it a better performing car (brakes,eng,gearbox,diff or anything but the outside look).

#405 myss427

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 08:12 AM

My LS1 had a cam,otr, underdrive done by Active Automotive here in Perth and they changed out the valve gear but to my surprise used single springs and Eddie assured me his springs would be the goods. The engine revs freely to 7300 where the computer cuts it out. No dramas


Thats one serious rev for a single set of springs, I have been around roller cams for years and anything reving that high needs lots of seat pressure which a heavy single spring would be marginal. I floated my springs a few years ago, missed a gear and hit 8000 and bent every exhaust push rod and some of the roller lifters jumped out and caused quite a bit of damage and that was with Crower triple springs that had a seat preshure of 250lbs, 600 open. Also with the LS motors did you know the 427 is limited to 6900 and it has Titanium valves, Titanium double springs and a very light valve train.

#406 REDA9X

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 08:59 AM

In 1979 dealers were sent a note trying to sell the HO kit and also offering labels to put on parts stating it was illegal to use on road cars

Yes, correct, in 78 or 79 I have the letter somewhere Holden sent a warning to dealers stating they were to cease fitment of the kit as it contraviened ADR's. I know a dealer who fitted a HO kit to an LH SLR5000 and a one tonner. I know the owner of the SLR5000 and the mechanic who fitted it. He also did the one tonner and a green L34.

#407 xu2308

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 09:25 AM

The only Factory Hot V8 Car from Holden was the VN SS Group A Cars, i might be wrong but i think Holden did the Engines in them VN SS Group A Cars, We should say the L34 is the first Hot 308 V8 Holden due to its HO Engine pack option, but the Dealers fitted that option up, not the factory, but in essence the L34 HO pack is the first hotted up V8 , im guessing if the V8 XU-1 had of gone ahead, as they needed 200 Cars to be the same as the race cars for C.A.M.S then Holden might of had to do 200 Hot 308 V8's for the road going V8 LJ XU-1, might be interesting how they got around that at the time.

#408 REDA9X

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 10:02 AM

I'm going to do a search and see if there is a single post on this forum where you don't mention the XU1 V8, I'd nearly be willing to put money on there isn't. Thats not an insult by the way.
The VN group A was built to similar rules, holomogate just the bits you need to. They did manage to get 215kw out of it as a 5litre though, which they didn't achieve again until 93 with the realses of the stroker engine in the VR GTS. The big advantage with the VN Group A was the twin throttle bodies. If you fit those onto the VR GTS engine the power goes from 215 to 300kw. It just proves how important being able to breath is for an engine.

#409 _LXSS350_

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 10:31 AM

Not a full bottle on dunnydores as they have never been of any interest to me. I followed them a little into the early Brock dunnys but then stopped following what Holden did. V8 superboring then killed Bathurst.

Personally I find dunnys have always been just boring bricks with no style. I do remember a mate got a new Brock VK GpA Blue Meanie with its unleaded 4.9l, and that was a pretty lumpy engine and had a pretty firm ride in std form. Just had a boring style and poor fitting plastic everything. Thought I might like the Monaro when I first saw the prototype, but then drove the released version and walked away totally unimpressed.

From what I remember reading that walkinshaw twin throttle body intake manifold was a very capable bit of gear.

I come to realise that I am too much into the old 60/70's cars because they are more my style (and age).
Go the Torana's. (King of the Mountain)

Edited by LXSS350, 21 March 2012 - 10:36 AM.


#410 _outer control_

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 11:01 AM

Not a full bottle on dunnydores as they have never been of any interest to me. I followed them a little into the early Brock dunnys but then stopped following what Holden did. V8 superboring then killed Bathurst.

Personally I find dunnys have always been just boring bricks with no style. I do remember a mate got a new Brock VK GpA Blue Meanie with its unleaded 4.9l, and that was a pretty lumpy engine and had a pretty firm ride in std form. Just had a boring style and poor fitting plastic everything. Thought I might like the Monaro when I first saw the prototype, but then drove the released version and walked away totally unimpressed.

From what I remember reading that walkinshaw twin throttle body intake manifold was a very capable bit of gear.

I come to realise that I am too much into the old 60/70's cars because they are more my style (and age).
Go the Torana's. (King of the Mountain)

Spot on Mark with your summing up of V8 Superboring but i always take the day out to watch Bathurst which is something special. I dont know that i could watch Datsuns going round sort of un Australian. Might have to go this year as it might be the last year worth going to.

#411 xu2308

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 11:45 AM

I'm going to do a search and see if there is a single post on this forum where you don't mention the XU1 V8, I'd nearly be willing to put money on there isn't. Thats not an insult by the way.
The VN group A was built to similar rules, holomogate just the bits you need to. They did manage to get 215kw out of it as a 5litre though, which they didn't achieve again until 93 with the realses of the stroker engine in the VR GTS. The big advantage with the VN Group A was the twin throttle bodies. If you fit those onto the VR GTS engine the power goes from 215 to 300kw. It just proves how important being able to breath is for an engine.


Haaaaaaaa Red
there will be some that dont mention them, got to give em a plug so u A9X and L34 Boys dont forget what was the first V8 Torana :driving:

Edited by xu2308, 21 March 2012 - 11:54 AM.


#412 REDA9X

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 12:10 PM

Gesss mate, you didn't like the VK Brock. It was a beautiful thing to drive. I remember driving a mates to the Wheels photo shoot and seriously contemplating swaping it for my A9X. I do remember Bob Morris telling me he ordered one through John Harvey, picked it up Friday traded it in Monday because he hated the rough ride.

Haaaaaaaa Red
there will be some that dont mention them, got to give em a plug so u A9X and L34 Boys dont forget what was the first V8 Torana :driving:


sounds like a challenge to find one, BTW ones you make now not mentioning it don't count.

#413 _outer control_

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 05:01 PM

Haaaaaaaa Red
there will be some that dont mention them, got to give em a plug so u A9X and L34 Boys dont forget what was the first V8 Torana :driving:

HB with chev

#414 _LH8VD69_

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 03:05 AM

Thats one serious rev for a single set of springs, I have been around roller cams for years and anything reving that high needs lots of seat pressure which a heavy single spring would be marginal. I floated my springs a few years ago, missed a gear and hit 8000 and bent every exhaust push rod and some of the roller lifters jumped out and caused quite a bit of damage and that was with Crower triple springs that had a seat preshure of 250lbs, 600 open. Also with the LS motors did you know the 427 is limited to 6900 and it has Titanium valves, Titanium double springs and a very light valve train.


Yeah ur right it is a serious amount of revs , hence my question to Eddie about the single springs and the high set limiter. He assured me it would be sweet. Two years later it is as free reving and awesome as the day I drove it out of his workshop !

#415 _racer8_

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 07:39 PM

Haaaaaaaa Red
there will be some that dont mention them, got to give em a plug so u A9X and L34 Boys dont forget what was the first V8 Torana :driving:

Just remember people u can,t have any fun on this disscussion! - keep it serious, otherwise a certain person will get his rags on!!
must have factual information, and no DRIBBLE!

#416 _LXSS350_

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 09:11 PM

Just remember people u can,t have any fun on this disscussion! - keep it serious, otherwise a certain person will get his rags on!!
must have factual information, and no DRIBBLE!


Ha-ha..haaa .... LOL
As the editors of today's magazines (eg street machine) would say " Never let the truth get in the way of telling a bloody good story" .... LOL

#417 _racer8_

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 09:20 PM

Ha-ha..haaa .... LOL
As the editors of today's magazines (eg street machine) would say " Never let the truth get in the way of telling a bloody good story" .... LOL

To true LXSS350! , ha ha.

#418 REDA9X

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 06:15 AM

Just remember people u can,t have any fun on this disscussion! - keep it serious, otherwise a certain person will get his rags on!!
must have factual information, and no DRIBBLE!


Fun is one thing, personal attacks and just some of the absolute bullshit are another.
BTW

#419 _LXSS350_

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 07:04 AM

Fun is one thing, personal attacks and just some of the absolute bullshit are another.
BTW


Totally agree Red
Absolutely This is Not The Place For Personal Attacks

Its only cars. We are not curing cancer.

#420 _AD_75_

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 06:22 PM

No doubt the parts themselves had factory support, but it was a balancing act for Holden. Its was clear to Holden that dealers would sell their sole for any sale, but holden definitely didn't want those parts going into road cars. However being penny pinchers, they also knew it was hard to stop/police without upsetting why they used that distribution channel. To help entry numbers for the ATC and Bathurst, the use of dealers and the parts operation made for easier distribution and support of private race teams. Of course this meant all dealers had access ....... even out the back of Burke. The alternative was make it harder for teams to get that factory support and result in more expense.

So you had two different entities, the dealers who do anything to sell a car and then Holden who wanted the prestige and flow on effect of winning Bathurst. Unlike the 60's it was a strange time in the rules and politics, but as always Holden just wanted to win another Bathurst over Fraud. However the company had a social conscience conflict and their tight ass bean counters where cutting & counting costs every day. Otherwise today we would have a GTR-X in the shed. After the 1973 supercar political headlines, Holden definitely didn't want to get dragged into the super fast road car fire again. As it was still fresh last thing Holden needed/wanted in 1974/75 was headlines of speed hoons and an L34 on the news wrapped around a lamp post with the 20 something occupants all injured or dead. Lets face it at 130mph you need better brakes than what was on the L34. Having driven a standard Fraud Phase3 between Coolgardie and Southern Cross I can tell you that corners and kangeroo's are not surprises you needed while winding it out.(least I for one like bloody good brakes ..... as did old KB in the 9 Camaro ... LOL)

This political hot car thing went on for a decade (until PB setup) and was also why the A9X was slipped under the radar with little fanfare and attention. In truth at $11k Holden found it extremely tough to sell them and lets face it besides the lumps and bump fibreglass it had a std 27a pollution chocked 308. That alone should show people the mentality of Holden at the time. Because of its racecar looks, the better handling, better brakes was simply ignored and not promoted in a public way. Mainly because of volumes, but also because the look of the car and relationship to racing might reflect badly on the companys desire for a more responsible image. Those of age would remember they mainly promoted the higher volume HZ GTS, a mild looking 4 door taxi with its rts and 4 wheel discs. Yet they contradicted themselves with its 78/79 Bathurst ads which where all Torana A9X Hatch images.

The solution came with the relationship with Brock, as it gave them the bathurst exposure and seperated them from directly being involved in hot rodding dunnydores. Although ultimately they supported Brock and supplied cars to suit, the fact was it was a very relieved Holden to get rid of a small volume market segment (hard to profit) along with the political responsibility. Yet they could still ride the Brock dunnydore coat tales of Bathurst Success.

Winning at the Mountain really had a big effect on sales.

Back in the day when Australian manufacturing was politically supported and encouraged (by protection measures), those measures also had a rebound effect on Holdens costs of importing chevs and pushed the need to develop a local engine. So of course it meant the use of chevs had to stop with the HQ. But personally I have always wondered why GM couldn't have licensed the Chev to be manufactured here so we could tap into the big factory and after-market parts and knowledge that had existed since 1955 in the USA. Trying to re-invent the wheel and get close to a small block that had been around since 1955 was fraught with heartache and headache, especially with the design Holden chose with its poor oiling system,head design,sealing,odd firing order etc. As we know many things where slowly fixed, but how many races ended during that period because of the 308's inherant poor design issues?

Funny in 2012 the old plastic is long dead and gone and we are back to where we started except using the latest chev motors. Manufacturing has almost ceased to exist, as Australia has finally realised its true market size and that we simply can't compete on a world scale. Mind you that's also because most of us can't live on a bag of rice either ..... LOL

Probably for some who are younger its hard to fathom or understand today, but we had pretty much nothing off the self for hot rodding 308's until the L34. Pre L34 everything was custom and bloody expensive (if you couldn't do it yourself). Almost no information was available and hot rod engine shops just laughed if you asked about the 308. When I modified a 308 (before the L34) I adapted basic engine modification information from people like Bill Jenkins, Bill Fisher, Bob Warr and still have all their old 70's and 80's books. Of course chevs are a different animal but the relativity of breathing,rods,pistons,clearances,carbys etc made for some starting point. It was all trial and error and I'll be the first to say it was more error and cost than success.

So for those like me (no Harry Firth) who didn't have big piles of money, it was always tough not to go to a chev (except for licensing reasons). At the time 500Hp chev was easy, 500Hp from a 308 was an impossibility. The amount of HQ heads we trashed when we where trying to put in better valves,springs and bigger porting would be laughable today. (water leak - welder). Normally if viable we adapted parts from chevs enormous catalog. I remember before the L34 we hand modified the pickup tube size, sump with windage tray/scraper, modified return galleries,modified oil pumps all to get all that oil back into the sump and out of the top end. Everytime we held big revs 6k+ we had big issues and fought the poor design for years. I sure am glad there was no video of me in the shed doing stuff I had no right to be doing Ha-haa.


So not only as a Torana fanatic but as a Holden man we owe a hell of a lot to the L34.

Just one other clarification is that personally today I could never modify anything at all on any genuine A9X, L34, XU-1 or SS, SLR 5000, GTR.

Used to do it in the 70's and 80's but not now. However I have absolutely no problem in doing a replica and going mad with the gas axe and hammer to fit what ever will make it a better performing car (brakes,eng,gearbox,diff or anything but the outside look).


Haha did you copy most of that out of a magazine article? im sure ive read that story before.. :dontknow: interesting none the less.

#421 _racer8_

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 06:59 PM

Fun is one thing, personal attacks and just some of the absolute bullshit are another.
BTW

I hope you wern,t having a crack at me Red, there are others on this forum the CRAP on as well, i am, lucky to have two genuine vehicles in my possesion, one HO, the other just as the factory built it , so i am fully aware of there capabilties, and their short falls!- and i totally understand they arn,t the only Torana model made.
If you think i am an easy target,(as i am fairly new on these forums) i strongly suggest you BACK OFF!!!!

#422 _LXSS350_

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 07:31 PM

Haha did you copy most of that out of a magazine article? im sure ive read that story before.. :dontknow: interesting none the less.


WTF
You or anyone else have never read those words .... unless your inside my head. LOL

Its just my recollection/opinion, as I lived through it and closely followed every move of Beechy,Bond,Roberts,Geoghegan, and ultimately my favourite Brock (the new whipper snapper). At least he was my favourite till he got messed up by Dr Crystal's in a box. Top respect for Bob Morris who just kicked butt so many times.

#423 REDA9X

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 08:12 PM

I hope you wern,t having a crack at me Red, there are others on this forum the CRAP on as well, i am, lucky to have two genuine vehicles in my possesion, one HO, the other just as the factory built it , so i am fully aware of there capabilties, and their short falls!- and i totally understand they arn,t the only Torana model made.
If you think i am an easy target,(as i am fairly new on these forums) i strongly suggest you BACK OFF!!!!


Excuse me? Then I assume the RAGS comment wasn't a crack at me? If it wasn't then fine, if so, take your own advice.
My comment wasn't a crack at you in particular or any one person for that matter.

#424 a9x868

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 08:52 PM

Excuse me? Then I assume the RAGS comment wasn't a crack at me? If it wasn't then fine, if so, take your own advice.
My comment wasn't a crack at you in particular or any one person for that matter.

it,s all getting a bit serious boys
suggest you all take stock of what your
input to this forum is and relax a little!
the last thing anyone want,s are
personal attacks when we are all
hopefully here to appreciate anything
torana based!
cheers
dave mc

#425 _chrome yella_

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 08:59 PM

i have a crack.




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