Jump to content


Photo

The Great L34 A9X debate


  • Please log in to reply
582 replies to this topic

#426 _racer8_

_racer8_
  • Guests

Posted 23 March 2012 - 09:42 PM

it,s all getting a bit serious boys
suggest you all take stock of what your
input to this forum is and relax a little!
the last thing anyone want,s are
personal attacks when we are all
hopefully here to appreciate anything
torana based!
cheers
dave mc

Excuse me? Then I assume the RAGS comment wasn't a crack at me? If it wasn't then fine, if so, take your own advice.
My comment wasn't a crack at you in particular or any one person for that matter.

Sorry Red, no it wasn,t directed at you personally, as i havent met you as yet, you have my full repect as a Torana buff, it was a poor choice of words, at the time, i apologise for interrupting these disscussions folks, cheers Racer8.
P.S My sense of humuor gets a bit carried away sometimes!

#427 TerrA LX

TerrA LX

    Fulcrum Fixture

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,241 posts
  • Location:Sid 'n' knee
  • Joined: 31-May 06

Posted 23 March 2012 - 10:17 PM

Haters will hate.

#428 _LXSS350_

_LXSS350_
  • Guests

Posted 24 March 2012 - 01:43 AM

Internet forums can have a habit of ignoring factual evidence for hearsay and conspiracy theories, but that's the nature of the internet. Bit like the US government flew those planes on 911 just so it could start a war. LOL

Car talk mixed with owners testosterone can only lead to an endless dick swinging competition. Add in a few side hecklers with obvious complexes and you have yourself a debate on 30+yr old cars.
Its laughable, but it sure can be fun as you watch the class clowns throw mud from the sidelines.

Edited by LXSS350, 24 March 2012 - 01:45 AM.


#429 _Got1UR1_

_Got1UR1_
  • Guests

Posted 24 March 2012 - 01:59 AM

And there is always someone who throws in a few well worn cliches, quotes reams of crap when we all know "believe half of what you see and none of what you read" is the rule. Tries to take the high moral ground with airy statements doubting any past or present owners ability to accurately recount first hand experiences of their cars. I thought a complex was just down the road where we race cars? :stirpot:

#430 _LXSS350_

_LXSS350_
  • Guests

Posted 24 March 2012 - 02:58 AM

I agree of course 130mph Torana's existed just they where not from the Holden's Factory.

#431 _LXSS350_

_LXSS350_
  • Guests

Posted 24 March 2012 - 03:12 AM

RED, faster = top speed, maybe you should consider facts beyond quarter mile times. all bathurst races are longer than that. my brand new, outer the showroom L34 was guaranteed to do 143 MPH stock standard 11/03/75. no other standard 308 can pull 5500 rpm in top gear with a 2.78 diff ratio, simply because they cannot develop the hp to do so. after every quarter mile thereonafter the l34 is going to be further ahead, remember stock standard versus a9x. the a9x was faster on the track but it wasnt standard but was developed into a better more reliable race car. regards jeff


Standard 1975 L34. Please keep some reality.

The issue is 143MPH is Fraud Phase3 territory (2mph faster with rev limit)
No one takes that seriously

#432 _Got1UR1_

_Got1UR1_
  • Guests

Posted 24 March 2012 - 11:33 PM

Let,s keep the Frauds (Ph3s) in their place while we are at it. They got flogged by a six cylinder at Bathurst, they only won Bathurst once, they got flogged over the 1/4 mile by another six cylinder ( Valiant). So they then claimed to be the fastest 4 door production car. 300 were built, (more than Bathurst XU1s, L34s and A9X hatches). So therefore they are not as rare, not as successful as a lot of journalists would have us believe. IMO PH3s are cloaked in myths and undeserved legendary (by some) status. And yes, I have been to the dark side and owned GTs of various models including XYs. Lovely to drive, just like a big saggy double bed on wheels. Go figure.

#433 xu2308

xu2308

    Grail Hunter

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,704 posts
  • Name:AL
  • Location:Belconnen ACT
  • Car:SMP LJ GTR V8 Prototype-Confirmed By HHS and Ex GMH XW7 Engineers
  • Joined: 09-April 09

Posted 25 March 2012 - 01:29 PM

The Phase 3 was in the LJ Torana era in 1972 not the LH L34 era or A9X era, i do beleive there was a Torana that was faster than ya Phase 3 in that time frame and was run at the 1972 Easter Bathurst Race and Won and did a faster high speed than a Phase 3 on road test by Larry Perkins, LXSS350 u should know which rana im talking about i hope, so a Torana that did 170 mph in test by HDT, so a Torana from the Phase 3 era that would of been faster and was only days away from been a production car.

#434 _LXSS350_

_LXSS350_
  • Guests

Posted 25 March 2012 - 06:01 PM

No love or desire for any Fraud. But during the period of the L34 being available, the Fraud P3 was still the Australian factory performance benchmark. Talk here is only of sheer factory performance i.e. 0-100mph, 1/4 mile, top speed etc. If we start talking handling, brakes, reliability, then its a far bigger more complex discussion. But no matter which side of the rabbit proof fence you sit ...... how the Fraud came off the showroom floor made it worthy of direct comparison to any of my Torana's inc the L34.

A racing car and a std factory road car are two totally different animals. Too many people try to mix the two to justify a belief when having these type of discussions. But in order to keep it factual its got to be apples to apples .... That's only if we want to discuss truth and reality.

In my neck of the woods (non italian - LOL) the E Chargers where a rare sight, but their excellent performance was well known. I never had any direct E series Charger experience, but my late father did have a new 1974 265 engined A23 Charger before he had a high speed barrel roll on the way to Perth which wrote it off in 1976. The E49/E38 versions of the 265 made them by far the best 6cyd engines of their time (stab me and god save my holden soul) and they where simply a much better engine than a holden 6 could ever be.

Brand/Model bias aside I don't know why people can't respect a car for what it was, without the need to tell half truths (or embellish the truth) and hope like hell that everyone reading doesn't know the facts. The E49 had 3.5 rear gears which limited its top speed compared to the Fraud, but gave it an advantage in its 1/4 mile time, and 0-100mph (along with its weight advantage). Being a 1.0 ratio in top gear (4 speed) meant the E49 had a top speed of 112mph, 1/4 mile of 14.4sec, 0-100mph of 14.1sec vs the Fraud top speed of 141mph, 1/4 mile of 14.5sec, 0-100mph of 15.2sec

Those are the facts of factory cars.

Forgetting that we where just young rev heads trying to prove who had a faster car, we where also under no illusion that any of us where threatening the drivers seat of Brock or Moffat at Bathurst.... LOL ... We also where not timing or writing some sort of detailed review, but I can honestly say I had not a hope in hell of staying with the Fraud from a standing start or in a direct top speed comparison.

I spent a lot of my youth trying to beat this Fraud because it was a yardstick and we new it could do 14.5sec quarters and 140mph. Not to mention pride .... what Torana owner doesn't want to kick a Frauds ass. But reality is cludo's have to be given to the Fraud factory because it was quite a feat in 1971 in such a heavy car, it was an absolute tank to drive, brakes where a death trap and we cooked them several times in twisty fast runs. The L34 Torana on the other hand had better brakes (still crap) was far more nimble with far superior steering feel and response (gave me confidence).
The fact however still remains that from a standing start to top speed while I was showing off the clock on the L34 speedo ...... I couldn't even see that bloody Fraud and we where on 4 miles of absolutely RTA free straight road between Coolgardie and Southern Cross (middle of nowhere).

Now I have no doubt mine did about 120-125mph but that was all she wrote. At the time it had about 35-38k on the clock. But no way in hell could it do 130mph let alone 143mph. I mean to say that is like saying I bedded Rachael Welsh !!! LOL

I wished and had dreams but ... nothing real.

Edited by LXSS350, 25 March 2012 - 06:07 PM.


#435 REDA9X

REDA9X

    Removed

  • Inactive
  • Pip
  • 0 posts
  • Joined: 08-November 05

Posted 25 March 2012 - 07:02 PM

The Phase 3 was in the LJ Torana era in 1972 not the LH L34 era or A9X era, i do beleive there was a Torana that was faster than ya Phase 3 in that time frame and was run at the 1972 Easter Bathurst Race and Won and did a faster high speed than a Phase 3 on road test by Larry Perkins, LXSS350 u should know which rana im talking about i hope, so a Torana that did 170 mph in test by HDT, so a Torana from the Phase 3 era that would of been faster and was only days away from been a production car.


Lets face it though, the car Larry was driving wasn't the same as the production car would have been, it was almost a sports sedan.
170MPH 273km/h is a bit faster than the race A9X was good for at Bathurst. I don't believe these cars in 72 under the rules of the day would have been faster than Group C cars 7 years later.

#436 _AD_75_

_AD_75_
  • Guests

Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:21 AM

I never had any direct E series Charger experience


Yes well, that still didnt stop you from quoting us another magazine article worth of information about a car you've never had any direct experience with..

Brand/Model bias aside I don't know why people can't respect a car for what it was, without the need to tell half truths (or embellish the truth) and hope like hell that everyone reading doesn't know the facts. The E49 had 3.5 rear gears which limited its top speed compared to the Fraud, but gave it an advantage in its 1/4 mile time, and 0-100mph (along with its weight advantage). Being a 1.0 ratio in top gear (4 speed) meant the E49 had a top speed of 112mph, 1/4 mile of 14.4sec, 0-100mph of 14.1sec vs the Fraud top speed of 141mph, 1/4 mile of 14.5sec, 0-100mph of 15.2sec

Those are the facts of factory cars.


Maybe we should all just take LXSS350's word for it on everything because he's read the most car magazines. :stirpot:

#437 _LXSS350_

_LXSS350_
  • Guests

Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:54 AM

Yes well, that still didnt stop you from quoting us another magazine article worth of information about a car you've never had any direct experience with..



Maybe we should all just take LXSS350's word for it on everything because he's read the most car magazines. :stirpot:


No I just made it all up. I have been just taking the pi#s out of you.
Hell really I don't even own a car .... but I do have a few good lawnmowers !!!!



If your going to quote numbers you are better to read than take a wild guess.

http://www.chargerclubofwa.asn.au/media-detail.asp?iMediaID=7

Guessing is a big part of how all this BS about super fast factory L34's started.

How in the hell could anyone tell you their cars accurate performance 0-100mph or 1/4 mile times - unless they have read a official review or been to an official drag strip meeting???

Please keep it real, its getting rather sad. Sometimes people need to think a little before hitting the keyboard.

Oh no that's right the fact that the factory L34 could do 143mph (I read it on the Torana forum - LOL) and thus beat the Fraud P3.

This was the biggest automotive secret in Australian Motoring History. Ha_ha_haaaha ..... ROFL

It was so hidden even Holden didn't know it could go that fast ..... LOL LOL

I mean seriously, some people posting on the internet must be on some bloody good drugs.

Hey Adrian if you ever get over west come down to the track (motorplex or wannaroo) and we will take one of the lawnmowers out of the shed. You can pick which lawnmower as I've been collecting a few over the years.

#438 REDA9X

REDA9X

    Removed

  • Inactive
  • Pip
  • 0 posts
  • Joined: 08-November 05

Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:16 AM

Lets just get something in perspective for a second here, reading a repectable car magazine from 1974 that was testing cars off the showroom floor and reading a Street machine from 1989 are two totally different things. Lets not get the two mixed up.
If you're just stirring the pot, move on, this agruement has gone on too long anyway.

#439 _LH8VD69_

_LH8VD69_
  • Guests

Posted 26 March 2012 - 09:07 AM

Jesus !! After reading all these pages and the schoolgirl biatching about the L34 and A9X I've come to the conclusion ur all gay ! I love Toranas ! Period. Whoo my c$@k is bigger than yours ! Blah ! Blah F ing Blah!
I'm a member of a Torana club and attend as many meetings and shows as I can. Why? Because I love to see everyone else's Torries in all their glory and enjoy just as much hearing from their owners and their love affair for their baby.
P.S who gives a dogs ball bag about the p3!

#440 REDA9X

REDA9X

    Removed

  • Inactive
  • Pip
  • 0 posts
  • Joined: 08-November 05

Posted 26 March 2012 - 09:12 AM

Jesus !! After reading all these pages and the schoolgirl biatching about the L34 and A9X I've come to the conclusion ur all gay ! I love Toranas ! Period. Whoo my c$@k is bigger than yours ! Blah ! Blah F ing Blah!
I'm a member of a Torana club and attend as many meetings and shows as I can. Why? Because I love to see everyone else's Torries in all their glory and enjoy just as much hearing from their owners and their love affair for their baby.
P.S who gives a dogs ball bag about the p3!


Thumbs up, I like it

#441 _LXSS350_

_LXSS350_
  • Guests

Posted 26 March 2012 - 09:52 AM

This forum is a great wealth of information for what we love and that is Torana's. I think that like any Torana Club in Australia, the history and facts of the Torana should never be lost. Many people like myself collect these rare Torana's because we have an affinity with the era and the Torana in particular. The image of them racing at the Mountain is one that we hold dear.

As the price has increased on the rarest versions (xu-1,l34,a9x) the information on this forum is of great help to an owner or a potential collector. Obviously the more original any model is to how it left the factory ..... clearly makes (all things being equal) that particular car worth far more than one that has been modified.

In saying that like anything old, so many myths and stories have been fabricated over the years (about these cars).
Allowing those myths to fester doesn't help anyone.

Any true Torana enthusiast could never support lies about these great cars or else they probably have other motives.

Late in 1972 Wheels started using the fifth wheel for performance tests.

Basing performance facts on that is far more accurate than some pub talk and some forum member saying my uncles cousin mothers brother worked in the back room of some local Holden dealer. He had had access to the secret holden files that where never released to the public. LOL

#442 ls2lxhatch

ls2lxhatch

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,332 posts
  • Location:Perth
  • Car:LX Hatch
  • Joined: 29-May 06

Posted 26 March 2012 - 10:58 AM



#443 _LXSS350_

_LXSS350_
  • Guests

Posted 26 March 2012 - 11:01 AM

How good is jack as an actor.

#444 _outer control_

_outer control_
  • Guests

Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:26 PM

I own a couple of both and love them all but i stick up for the L34,s because uninformed people get caught up in the hype of A9X,s are the only torana thats important but forget the importance of the pre-dessor.How many XC falcon coupes were fireballs.
Yes the final A9X race car was faster but evolution ending up with fully floating Harrop diff far removed from road going versions,bigger brakes etc.

#445 _AD_75_

_AD_75_
  • Guests

Posted 26 March 2012 - 01:35 PM

If your going to quote numbers you are better to read than take a wild guess.

http://www.chargercl....asp?iMediaID=7

Sorry mate i cant trust those figures because according to you they came off the internet so are unreliable. :dontknow:

Oh no that's right the fact that the factory L34 could do 143mph (I read it on the Torana forum - LOL) and thus beat the Fraud P3.



Please find in any of my posts where i have said that the L34 could do 143mph straight off the showroom floor?

Hey Adrian if you ever get over west come down to the track (motorplex or wannaroo) and we will take one of the lawnmowers out of the shed. You can pick which lawnmower as I've been collecting a few over the years.




Dont be shy tell us what you have, is it a big secret? you keep hinting that theres something about your car collection we should all know?

Edited by AD_75, 26 March 2012 - 01:36 PM.


#446 xu2308

xu2308

    Grail Hunter

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,704 posts
  • Name:AL
  • Location:Belconnen ACT
  • Car:SMP LJ GTR V8 Prototype-Confirmed By HHS and Ex GMH XW7 Engineers
  • Joined: 09-April 09

Posted 26 March 2012 - 05:29 PM

Lets face it though, the car Larry was driving wasn't the same as the production car would have been, it was almost a sports sedan.
170MPH 273km/h is a bit faster than the race A9X was good for at Bathurst. I don't believe these cars in 72 under the rules of the day would have been faster than Group C cars 7 years later.


I think Harry only made it look like a sports sedan for the 1972 Easter Bathurst Race, so the press and ford dident realise what he was really testing for the real Bathurst of 1972, and the H said that the Yellow HDT LC hit 7000 rpm in top gear, pulling a 2.78 diff on Conrod Straight, which equates to just under 170 mph (272 km/h) this was done at the easter bathurst of 1972.
That what the H said it did, the car the H tested would of been the same as the production car going off the 1972 C.A.M.S Rules, it had to be.

#447 REDA9X

REDA9X

    Removed

  • Inactive
  • Pip
  • 0 posts
  • Joined: 08-November 05

Posted 26 March 2012 - 06:05 PM

I think Harry only made it look like a sports sedan for the 1972 Easter Bathurst Race, so the press and ford dident realise what he was really testing for the real Bathurst of 1972, and the H said that the Yellow HDT LC hit 7000 rpm in top gear, pulling a 2.78 diff on Conrod Straight, which equates to just under 170 mph (272 km/h) this was done at the easter bathurst of 1972.
That what the H said it did, the car the H tested would of been the same as the production car going off the 1972 C.A.M.S Rules, it had to be.


At the end of the day, you can't seriously tell me and be honest about it that the car Harry took to Bathurst in Easter 72 was exactly the same as the road car. For starters tyres were race tyres, exhausts were free, suspension free, etc, not to metion the engine would have been put together much better than the road going version. Even under the rules of the day it wasn't like racers bought at car Thursday and started racing Friday in practice.
As for 7000 RPM with the 2.78 diff equating to 170MPH, it still depends on the rolling diameter of the tyres too. Again, if you think it was the same as the road car, do you honestly expect it to have been faster in 1972 than the A9X's were in 1979, or even the VK in 84 under Group C rules? Just because Harry says it, doesn't make it true either because he said a few things to me in the past that certainly weren't correct.

#448 TerrA LX

TerrA LX

    Fulcrum Fixture

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,241 posts
  • Location:Sid 'n' knee
  • Joined: 31-May 06

Posted 26 March 2012 - 06:16 PM

Blah blah blah, everyone knows you won't get a better car than an A9X with an L34 motor.

#449 xu2308

xu2308

    Grail Hunter

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,704 posts
  • Name:AL
  • Location:Belconnen ACT
  • Car:SMP LJ GTR V8 Prototype-Confirmed By HHS and Ex GMH XW7 Engineers
  • Joined: 09-April 09

Posted 26 March 2012 - 07:17 PM

Read page 52 on the A.M.C Mag issue 9
The Car ran speed rated radial tyres that larry used on road testing and it used the production front muffler and exhaust, which was joined as one at
the gearbox, then they used slow leak hydraulic lifters that could handle 7000 rpm and hand picked valve springs and the car used 13x6 inch widened steel wheels the same rim off-set of the proposed globe alloys (Sprintmasters).
The H says it did the speeds in road testing and at the easter bathurst of 1972, now we are talking 1972 C.A.M.S Rules not 1973 Group C Rules,
What was raced on the track in 1972 was sold on the showroom floor under 1972 C.A.M.S Rules.
What was the weight of a Group C A9X Race Car, as the LC-LJ XU-1 would of been a lighter bod one would think than a Group C Race A9X .
Im sure the HDT A9X was clocked doing 178 mph at the 1979 bathurst race meeting weekend, so faster than Harry's weapon of 1972.

#450 REDA9X

REDA9X

    Removed

  • Inactive
  • Pip
  • 0 posts
  • Joined: 08-November 05

Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:09 PM

Read page 52 on the A.M.C Mag issue 9
The Car ran speed rated radial tyres that larry used on road testing and it used the production front muffler and exhaust, which was joined as one at
the gearbox, then they used slow leak hydraulic lifters that could handle 7000 rpm and hand picked valve springs and the car used 13x6 inch widened steel wheels the same rim off-set of the proposed globe alloys (Sprintmasters).
The H says it did the speeds in road testing and at the easter bathurst of 1972, now we are talking 1972 C.A.M.S Rules not 1973 Group C Rules,
What was raced on the track in 1972 was sold on the showroom floor under 1972 C.A.M.S Rules.
What was the weight of a Group C A9X Race Car, as the LC-LJ XU-1 would of been a lighter bod one would think than a Group C Race A9X .
Im sure the HDT A9X was clocked doing 178 mph at the 1979 bathurst race meeting weekend, so faster than Harry's weapon of 1972.


Again, not the same as the road car is it. What was raced on the track in 72 still wasn't a road car, close but still line a road car against a race car in 72 and expect it to be a fair race and you're kidding yourself. I'm sure the road cars didn't come with those big spoilers either.I believe Alan Grices A9X wa the fastest down Conrod, right up to the point where it was asked to come to the scruitineering shed and this strange bottle was discovered..wonder what that was. I belive It was 278km/h. Generally the A9X was good for about 260km/h down Conrod and 7000RPM was only seen in qualifying and not on Conrod.
I'd have to read it again but I believe Harry said it was capable of those speeds, but on Conrod? Come on the V8 Supercars with 650HP and six gears to wind them up aren't much faster than that. Even with the kink in Conrod the cars are much more stable than in 72 when you had to back off over the humps so you didn't end up like Beven Gison on your lid.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users