582 replies to this topic

[wot179]

I think you younger guys should listen sometimes to the older guys that were amongst it when the cars were new, all those Torana books you eat don't necessarily make you a guru, it's all theoretical unless you've had the opportunity to experienced it.

This standard Chrome Yellow SL/R 5000 beside the standard Azure Blue L34 and the standard Barbados Green SL/R 5000 in the back ground of the last photo could not outperform the Standard L34 no matter how hard they tried. And we're not talking about one off here, it just never happen.

I'm sorry but I don't have the motivation for a pissing contest, I've said my piece I was there, had them all and loved them all .............regards

I know its a little off topic,but does that sign in the 3rd pic say 14.9cents a litre for standard BP dinosaur juice?

[unclefestal34s]

I think you younger guys should listen sometimes to the older guys that were amongst it when the cars were new, all those Torana books you eat don�t necessarily make you a guru, it�s all theoretical unless you�ve had the opportunity to experienced it.

This standard Chrome Yellow SL/R 5000 beside the standard Azure Blue L34 and the standard Barbados Green SL/R 5000 in the back ground of the last photo could not outperform the Standard L34 no matter how hard they tried. And we�re not talking about one off here, it just never happen.

I�m sorry but I don�t have the motivation for a pissing contest, I�ve said my piece I was there, had them all and loved them all .............regards

now there's a man who knows what he is talking about.....HSVGTS well said.....this debate or argument will go on for many a year...personally speaking i could not give a rats arse,..I've seen and experienced enough to make my own judgement and will always agree to disagree with others even if have stronger opinions or read more books than me...as I've said from the outset whatever torana you fortunate enough to own make sure you make time to enjoy it as i have enjoyed mine ones,one thing for sure I've notice on this forum is how passionate we are towards our torana's....I'm biased towards L34s and make no secret of it but never let facts get in the way of the truth of the matter...i have no trouble admitting how much this forum has educated me as we have some very wise contributors....the problem I have found in recent times is most debates are generally centered on the value of these cars and i mean all them,..from GTRs,XU1s,SLRs,SS,L34s and A9Xs and believe this is what triggers of most the arguments...i was driving these cars as kid and as a 45yr I'm still driving them perhaps not now with the same enthusiasm..(except for my yellow modified L34 which gets the heart pumping)..cause every half educated person on the street who sees you in one has to tell you these cars a worth a packet or that's your super fund there and after a while you get sick of....i've made it my bussiness to drive these cars at any costs those who know me will see me in a different torana frequently as my cars a not dust collectors.....my red L34 on AMCS is what got this debate started so i wish it will hurry up and go away to a new owner...thats all guys from me on this topic..

[rodomo]

I was there, had them all and loved them all .............regards

Your referring to the cars or the ladies?

[REDA9X]

YEP, you're right there Rory because those relying on memory will be the next generation of blokes telling everyone how their BT1 VN Commodore was better then the VN SS and continue the old wives tales.....

[Litre8]

And the next two forum easy answer topics will cover religion and politics.

[fatslr]

Hey i reckon Pete wins he has still gotem both
I didn't think i would get to see those photos again i love the trumpet tips

[micklx]

Isn't a BT1 the same mechanicals but lesser cosmetics than an SS ?

[REDA9X]

Isn't a BT1 the same mechanicals but lesser cosmetics than an SS ?

try telling that to some people

[HSVGTS]

It�s not a complete slag at you Red [Guru], & Datto�s will always be the brake God [sorry to drag you in], or other younger people here.

I�ve learnt a lot more technical facts & figures plus shit that I�d forgotten from you guys.

Remember there was no need to worry about that sort of thing as the cars were new and were available to buy if you wanted one, no need to fake them back then, just flog them for you guy to fix-up and put back together today.

Credit were credit�s due����.young and older, regards.

[HSVGTS]

I wasn't going to post anymore..but this thread got me..
What a shit fight..no wonder people are leaving..NOS and me included.
RED..It's a no win argument....

Rorym� you have more patience than me, I decided that a long time ago. To many strong opinions for me to bother with whether they be right or wrong some people don�t want to listen to others and just push their opinions and/or pick others to bits, I just breeze by every now and then read a little and post once in a blue moon.�����..regards

[REDA9X]

HSVGTS, if only everyone could reply like that, without resorting to a childish reply then this would be a great discussion. It amazes me how some people can sit behind the protection of a keyboard and be childish or nasty especially when they know that person. Theres really no need for it, and I never resorted to it at any stage. I think it shows the caliber of a person if they can put their facts down and put together a decent discussion, some people hear have done that well, others just decided to turn it into something it didn't need to be.
I think the issue with this whole argument has been that some people have taken what I have had to say, read small portions of it and interpreted it incorrectly. At no point did I ever say the L34 engine didn�t have the good parts in it, and at no point did I ever say the A9X engine was as good or better. If you were to go back in time and buy a new L34 and a new A9X and run them back to back as you removed them off the factory floor provided they ran the same gearing, then as I said it would be a fight to see if the oil surge in the A9X engine killed it before the L34 destroyed an axle, then again, on the road tyres they ran at the time, neither would probably be an issue and you would have a reasonably even fight. The L34 would not power away as some believe. If however you took those two cars and fitted a decent exhaust and aircleaner, then we would have a different result, the L34 would be a clear leader in straightline speed. The L34 would need a decent tune too as they left the factory floors with the timing not ideal as a deliberate ploy by Holden to mask their potential performance.
There have been some interesting statements made in this debate and the thread that started it all, some have made no sense whatsoever. Trying to compare a modified L34 against a stock A9X is not comparing apples with apples. Claiming the A9X only made a bad driver look better makes no sense to then say the car did not handle better. If it made a bad driver look good then surely that means it handles better. I was even blamed for starting the debate, however if you were to look back through the original thread a comment was made saying how much faster the L34 was however in the same line that person admitted to never having driven one. I simply tried to point out something that has been said for many years.
As for swallowing books, you certainly can�t believe everything you read. I�m not sure how many of the magazines in the 80�s and 90�s published that the A9X had twin thermo fans, when in fact, they had one. Some people have based their argument on experience siting examples, and that�s fine, however we are talking over 35 years ago. I know a guy who couldn�t get an L34 so opted to have his SLR5000 upgraded to L34 specs, and even had the HO kit fitted to the car by Warrington Motors in Dubbo, I know the mechanic who fitted it, and I know the guy still owns the car. That car was regularly beaten by a certain green LC GTR upgraded to XU1 specs on the drive between Dubbo and Burrendong Dam quite convincingly, the driver happened to be my mother. I also know a woman who traded her green Bathurst LJ XU1 In on an L34 at Warrington Motors and complained bitterly about it�s performance off the showroom floor. A few small mods and she was much happier and I believe that car is still in her possession. I used to love seeing these cars come into the workshop at Warringtons as a kid as Mum worked in spares and my Grandmother in the service department.

It was even said a stock L34 produced 315 hp, however that cannot surely be in the car with the standard exhaust and intake One thing I do agree with however is if you did build the engines however is if you did build the engines to stock configuration, then fitted a decent exhaust to both, the L34 engine would produce more power than an A9X, and any external mods you did to each would benefit the L34 more. One has to also remember and L34 had the option of the 3.08 rear end, which also gave you a different ratio gearbox over the standard M21. This means if you put a 3.08 rear end L34 up against an SLR5000 on the quarter mile dash, the L34 would win every time as the SLR5000 only had the 2.78 diff. I own a 220kw HSV which is a stroker 304 to 5.7litres which equates to 300hp. Now we all know how liberal HSV is with their figures, however the blueprinted version produced 230Kw which equates to 315hp. Prior to owning this car I had a HSV enhanced VR SS 185kw or around 250hp. I gave this car a run against Greg M�s (some people from here will know Greg well) L34 a few years ago and it was a reasonably even match, and that car was not exactly standard, but very close. In 5th gear I could not pull away up the hill out of Lithgow, however when I pulled back to 4th, I could pull away. My 220 stroker is a much quicker car and a lot heavier, yet produces less than a stock L34 engine 'apparently' does, so I�m at a loss to work that one out, doesn�t make sense does it, a 1800kg car with only 300hp being quicker than a 1200kg car with 315hp��

Lets investigate what exactly and L34 engine has over a standard 308, of the time.
Baffled sump�performance gain? Nil, durability, absolutely in circuit racing.
Better crank, performance gain, nil as again the crank was made for durability.
The block, extra webbing over a standard block, again, durability
Rods, again, mainly for durability when reving the thing harder and same goes for the pistons.
Then we come to the heads, bigger valves, ah yes, now that�s for some more power, no doubt, however, coupled with the same camshaft the standard 253 used, very minimal gain.
Roller rockers�again, durabilty
Intake, sucking through the exact same aircleaner and carby (carby had a manual choke) as the stock 5000, however the manifold is opened up at the base of the carby. A small gain would have been achieved here under racing conditions.
Ignition, twin point dizzy, no doubt, there for performance gains, better spark, more power, simple. However, again, Holden deliberately detuned them so they didn�t get their full potential off the showroom floor.
After the heads we have exhaust, yep, the L34 had H&M headers, but the rules stated the exhaust could be changed after the first join for racing. Holden did the bare minimum here and bolted a basic collector onto the header and fed it out through single 2� pipes down each side into a muffler and out through 1 5/8� pipes.

This is how Harry really deceived the government at the time, not by telling them what they wanted to hear, but buy building a car with lots of potential, then simply choking it so it was no faster than the SLR5000. Harry knew it wouldn�t be long before people fitted better exhausts and other bits to the cars, by that stage, it was out of Holdens hands and they couldn�t be held liable. This is how people remember the cars, not as the choked thing that left the showroom floor, but as the firebreathing rocket they made it into with a few simple mods, and this is why this argument will continue to go on for a long time.

[MRLXSS]

Can you paragraph that up a bit Red? That is the biggest clump of text! LOL. I got lost reading it after about the 3rd line...

[76lxhatch]

I think that put your point across quite well Red (although perhaps Herne won't read it ), good stuff

[LXM21]

Yep, its all there, hope others read it again, SLOWLY

[HSVGTS]

Red, you need to be more specific and use some dot points on what you�re trying to say, there�s a hell of a lot of unnecessary facts and figures happening within that post that�s confusing the hell out of what�s left of my brain. Don�t be offended it�s just hard to know exactly what point you are trying to make sometimes.

Now�.Yes the L34 motor has got the good bits and mainly for reliability and durability and that also gave it an edge along with it little performance improvements. Remember both vehicles were choked with small tail pipes and the ADR L31 didn�t help the factory A9X.

And you also make a point of the 220i [Harrop Stroker] 5.7 HSV motor having more power when Blue Printed when it appeared in the GTS-R. This could also be said that the tolerances of the specially built L34 motor would be more in spec then a factory ADR L31 giving the L34 more power without any performance mods.

To run a standard L34 & A9X back to back on a circuit I believe you could only do sprint like timed laps and not more then one fast lap in between a few slower laps as oil surge will get both [that�s what happened to us when we put our cars on Lakeside], oil pressure would drop on cornering and the tappet covers would end up full of oil.

Yes the A9X with its RTS is a more drivable torana but wouldn�t outperform the little extra power of the L34 and a good steerer in an L34, he could easily overcome the A9X RTS and rear drums on the race track for a few short sprints.

To race them on the track successfully they would need to modify and the A9X without the homologated L34 spec motor would be a non contender [because we are compairing here what they had from factory].

The L34 spec motor is the heart of what made/makes the A9X torana the Bathurst legend it is today.

Credit where credit's due.............regards

[HSVGTS]

Rang Harry Firth this morning and put it to him without bias and his response to a back to back showroom L34 & A9X show down on a race track was��� they�d blow up !

How would their performance compare Harry ?����. The L34�s motor naturally produces more power than the A9X, it had the ADR you know and the L34�s lighter with the smaller rear end so what do you recon.

Harry did go on to say besides those points the A9X is the end result of evolution of these cars and was the better in the end [we all agree on that, but that�s not the point of discussion here] he also added that the 4 door was the quicker of the A9X�s [not that I�m interested in that point, maybe Red is]

So that conversation with Harry confirms it for me along with what I�ve experienced.
How about it Red, how can you not agree, it not as if you�re losing an arm here, I�m not right and you�re not wrong, it just the way it is and was����..regards

[MRLXSS]

Rang Harry Firth this morning and put it to him without bias and his response to a back to back showroom L34 & A9X show down on a race track was��� they�d blow up !

Wish I could just give Harry a Buzz to settle an argument!

Great info their mate, thanks heaps!!!!!

[ToRunYa]

harry needs forum membership seriously lol

[REDA9X]

I think that pretty much sums up what I have been saying all along really doesn't it. It shows there was bugger all in it, not the huge gap some people believe. I had this same discussion with him 2 years ago when I was down there and he said the same thing, but he also said to me, don't forget we detuned them off the showroom floor to hide their performance to the polititions after the supercar scare. They had all the makings of a good thing, all you had to do was release it.