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186 versus 202 power potential difference .


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#26 nzxu1

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 04:21 AM

I would have thought a lightened flywheel would more suit racing at constant high revs thus retaining power but in a street situation you can't drive it a max revs all the time so you would loose the torque advantage of the heavier flywheel

Why not try a turbo...they go like a scorched cat


No turbos or forced induction of any kind allowed in the class rules for the racing that this engine is wanted for .........unless you have a long lost homologation paper for a factory turbo torana XU1 hidden somewhere ? ;)

#27 nzxu1

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 04:27 AM

Hey John I wish you lived closer, I think the 202 for what you want is the go even though years ago I had a 186 street car that was putting out more hp on my tuners dyno than his stroked 202 race motor.


You'll have to get a roll cage in that thing of yours ready for next years festival of speed Graham ............just so happens l have one in the shed ready for ya ! ;)

#28 _NZ Toranaman_

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 05:55 PM

You'll have to get a roll cage in that thing of yours ready for next years festival of speed Graham ............just so happens l have one in the shed ready for ya ! ;)

Thats so tempting but if I added a cage then I would have to add more and more until I turned it into a full race car. When are you up this way again John? I will have to go and see you.

#29 _Allports_

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 12:56 AM

Longer rods reduce the angle and therefore allow more revs and power throughout the entire rev range.

NZ Toranaman dont take this personally, your post is just happened to be the one I decided to reply on.
Dont trouble yourselves on worrying about this or that rod length, build what you can using the most obtainable parts, the angularity difference is only very slight, unless you make a big change. Plus a longer rod pulls away from TDC a fair amount slower than a short rod. Next time you fellas build a 202 with your long rod set up #1 cyl with the long rod combo and # 6 cyl with the short rod combo, set up a dial indicator on both and rotate the crankshaft and record the thou readings of piston movement every 2 degrees. You will note the longer rod climbs to TDC faster and the shorter rod in the last .005" catches it up and the on the way down the bore (the part that matters most on the intake cycle) will out accelerate the long rod all the way till approx 73-75 degrees bbdc (the fastest point of piston travel in the bore at which point they become even again. The situation is reversed at the swing around from bdc albeit the fastest point of piston travel then occurs @ 73-75 degrees btdc.

Point 1 is a shorter rod pulls harder on the intake port and therefore signals the carb better for down low torque and throttle response.
Point 2 is look at the RPM you use each day you drive around and end up a Maccas, is it 7000 and above?

If your talking a smallish cube like a 202 circuit engine and say a 12 turn track, the shorter rod motor will out accelerate the longer rod motor every time the foot goes down, and lets assume the car's weight gears tyres cams etc are all the same. I know what I'd rather have.
If its a NASCAR and you've got the motor parked up on 8500-9500 rpm then by all means put a long rod in it.
By the way yes the piston becomes lighter with a longer rod, but the down side is the rod is heavier and last time I checked Aluminium was lighter than steel. Food for thought.
Your money on those longer possibly cutom rods and custom shorter pistons just may be better spent elsewhere in your car.

Edited by Allports, 18 April 2009 - 01:09 AM.


#30 nzxu1

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 01:09 AM

Thats so tempting but if I added a cage then I would have to add more and more until I turned it into a full race car. When are you up this way again John? I will have to go and see you.


Nearest l will be to ChCh will be at the muscle car track day at Levels run by the Ashburton falcon club on the 23rd of may , at this stage will be taking the L34 up .

#31 _NZ Toranaman_

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 05:03 AM

Nearest l will be to ChCh will be at the muscle car track day at Levels run by the Ashburton falcon club on the 23rd of may , at this stage will be taking the L34 up .


Hey thanks for the excellent info in the previous post John and I will mark the calander and try and get there.

#32 _youngnproud_

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 02:41 PM

Hi all, i have a LX torana with a 202 in it now shes a project n still workin on the body at the moment, i am only on provisional licence so i cant put the 400 chevy in it sittin here, now i was thinkin of taking out the 202 and replacing it with a 179 HP out to a 192 with yella terra head, roller rockers, 30/70 cam and a 48mm webber n if it doesnt crack then ill drop the thing down a mine shaft lol... i am after some oppinions on wat i want to do or keep the 202 in her as im jus a chick who wants a more exerienced man to help me out with the facts ta Regards Paige

#33 Joshua

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 03:25 PM

Hi all, i have a LX torana with a 202 in it now shes a project n still workin on the body at the moment, i am only on provisional licence so i cant put the 400 chevy in it sittin here, now i was thinkin of taking out the 202 and replacing it with a 179 HP out to a 192 with yella terra head, roller rockers, 30/70 cam and a 48mm webber n if it doesnt crack then ill drop the thing down a mine shaft lol... i am after some oppinions on wat i want to do or keep the 202 in her as im jus a chick who wants a more exerienced man to help me out with the facts ta Regards Paige


leave the 202 in there and spend the money on the 400 so it's ready to slap in there once you're on opens
thanks what i'm gunna do :rockon:

#34 _pacey1977_

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 04:16 PM

Hi guys am building a blue 202 lightened and wedged fully counterweighted crank with a 186 red headand using comp cam from the US with all the good gear and 45mm webber should make around 320hp also running 5speed celica box and borgwarner 3.9 lsd diffhoping to run low 13's or high 12's what do you guys think. it all a 1970 LC 2 door gtr mock up. www.compheads.com.au

#35 _Allports_

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 04:25 PM

Hi guys am building a blue 202 lightened and wedged fully counterweighted crank with a 186 red headand using comp cam from the US with all the good gear and 45mm webber should make around 320hp also running 5speed celica box and borgwarner 3.9 lsd diffhoping to run low 13's or high 12's what do you guys think. it all a 1970 LC 2 door gtr mock up. www.compheads.com.au

i'd like to see you make that on a dyno with the early head. The NC motors make that sort of power but a lot of work and parts go into it.

#36 _Squarepants_

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 10:07 PM

Hi all, i have a LX torana with a 202 in it now shes a project n still workin on the body at the moment, i am only on provisional licence so i cant put the 400 chevy in it sittin here, now i was thinkin of taking out the 202 and replacing it with a 179 HP out to a 192 with yella terra head, roller rockers, 30/70 cam and a 48mm webber n if it doesnt crack then ill drop the thing down a mine shaft lol... i am after some oppinions on wat i want to do or keep the 202 in her as im jus a chick who wants a more exerienced man to help me out with the facts ta Regards Paige

I think I'm in love! I'll help you with anything you want in life Paige, facts, Toranas, children... I'm married but I'll make exceptions!!!
P.s. Save your money for what you really want! (ie. a good man with square pants! LOL!)

#37 _bon_scott_

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 10:19 PM

C'mon man if you're married you're too late :P She needs a young guy, someone who's doing the same thing :P
And yes, keep the 202 :D

#38 _Squarepants_

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 10:31 PM

C'mon man if you're married you're too late :P She needs a young guy, someone who's doing the same thing :P
And yes, keep the 202 :D


Hey, I'm 30 years young! And doing the same thing! Except I'm after a turbo 6 rather that a SB Chev. :spoton: Minor difference, My missus wouldn't even know what a 202 or a 400SB was!!! :fool:
(I am actually happy in my marriage [just in case the wife reads this!])

#39 _pacey1977_

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 10:57 PM

i'd like to see you make that on a dyno with the early head. The NC motors make that sort of power but a lot of work and parts go into it.


Once the motor is finished and I have dyno it I will post the dyno report on here am hoping to make that sort of power my engine builder told me that's what we are going for 320hp or 300hp still heaps of power for a car that only is 1ton in weight.

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#40 _Squarepants_

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 11:08 PM

Quit interupting! I'm trying to score here! :tease:
Sorry, I'll lay off now. :spoton:
Carry on lads.
Good luck Pacey!

#41 _Squarepants_

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 11:09 PM

Carry on lads.

And Lasses!

#42 _bon_scott_

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 01:59 PM

Ahaha I'll stop hijacking the thread now :threadjacked:

#43 xu1kid

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 09:09 PM

just wondering y you dont like the 186 stroker 235 because im in the process of building one with 6 throttle bodies wasted spark ignition 12 port head all will go into a lj torry would like to know your thoughts as if im wasting my time or to keep goin with it

the car will be used for street duties with a little hot 6 for when i want to have some fun

#44 nzxu1

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 07:16 AM

just wondering y you dont like the 186 stroker 235 because im in the process of building one with 6 throttle bodies wasted spark ignition 12 port head all will go into a lj torry would like to know your thoughts as if im wasting my time or to keep goin with it

the car will be used for street duties with a little hot 6 for when i want to have some fun


The specific 235 engine that l used was bought 2nd hand by me , had done very little work since a rebuild ............l changed the sump and while it was off checked the bearings , they were like new and bores still had fresh hone marks in them , new pistons fitted at rebuild in other words internally it was up to scratch as far as l could tell without pulling it right down . l removed the worked 9 port head and fitted a duggan 12 port alloy one with 1.7 rockers , with the particular cam installed it gave .580 of lift . Tried 48 webers to start off with , ran it on the local dyno to check timing and mixture .......no power figures as the crappy dynos readout doesn't work . Did one event and was dissapointed ........l was looking for more torque out of corners more than anything but it just didn't have it , or at least have what l was expecting . Next event l tried 48mm delortos with smaller chokes instead but it was no better . Perhaps l was expecting too much but l'm now 3 seconds a lap slower around my local track than l was 2 years ago with a 202 ................then again l'm 2 years older and heavier too l guess :( . 6000 RPM seemed about as much as the engine would take compared to the 202 which you could take to just over 7000 RPM .
These are my thoughts from my own experience with a 235 and there could very well have been something that l was missing that was not right so l'd hate to put you off building a stroker , they've been around for a long time now . Sounds like a very good combination that you are considering ...good luck :) .

#45 warrenm

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 08:49 AM

Personally I'd stay with the 202 & spend the time & money that you've saved somewhere else on the car.But its your money.
Warren

#46 greens nice

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 03:45 PM

just wondering y you dont like the 186 stroker 235 because im in the process of building one with 6 throttle bodies wasted spark ignition 12 port head all will go into a lj torry would like to know your thoughts as if im wasting my time or to keep goin with it

the car will be used for street duties with a little hot 6 for when i want to have some fun



they just dont want to rev
theres also increased force on the side of the bore because of the bigger stroke so more prone to splitting bores

#47 _torbirdie_

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 08:01 PM

I would have thought a lightened flywheel would more suit racing at constant high revs thus retaining power but in a street situation you can't drive it a max revs all the time so you would loose the torque advantage of the heavier flywheel


Making components such as the flywheel heavier wont increase torque, the purpose in making it heavier is to make the crankshaft spin more smoothy at lower rpm(average out the torque fluctuations that occur due to six large power strokes every 2rpm) and make the car more driveable.

If race cars operated at a constant high rpm, another 5kg or so of flywheel would be neither here nor there.
Racing cars(drivers) actually want light flywheels so they can change rpm more quickly for gear changes etc, and so the motor will actually move through the rev range while accelerating more quickly.

Edited by torbirdie, 07 May 2009 - 08:07 PM.


#48 xu1kid

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 08:25 PM

they just dont want to rev
theres also increased force on the side of the bore because of the bigger stroke so more prone to splitting bores


ive herd of them splitting the block before poor old block cant hang together

iv heard few good storys about these 186 strokers 235 i think in a street machine mag a bloke had a 186 stroker in a lj and managed high 11s down the quarter and put some hot v8s to shame but that car now has a blown 5 litre in it now as he cracked the block of the 186 he reckons he was reving it to 7000 down the quarter,

the motor im building will have 6 48mm efi throttle bodies eb falcon ignition coil pack type knife edged crank,starfire rods, forged pistons, crow cam, roller rockers,12port head,supra 5 speed close ratio,lighntened flywheel, and maybe nitrous so i am hoping that this combo will work well and go better than a worked 202, 6000 rpm will be the motors limit if it will do it

so if anyone has any experiance with these strokers let me know if im going in the right direction

cheers

#49 _Squarepants_

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 05:56 PM

What crank are you using?
A modded ford one?
Sounds like a good recipe you've got there.
I don't know how hard it will rev, cam will prolly be one of the deciding factors there too. Might take a bit of messing around matching cam to the rest of the hardware to get the best power within the rev range you want.

#50 greens nice

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 07:37 AM

why a 12 port? a 12 port on a 202 will run out of legs past 6500 - 6700.




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