aren't all those 'skilled' country drivers disproportionately represented in the road toll?
whats ur top speed??
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_hrt1and2_
, Mar 17 2006 09:20 PM
265 replies to this topic
#202
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Posted 22 June 2006 - 07:43 PM
Theyre not necessarily asleep, they just dont come to the side of the road to feed during daylight hours.
RIM
I also drove the torry home that night, limited to 70km/h, and we saw a total of 47 (i think it was 47...) roos along a 20km stretch of road.
RIM
RIM
I also drove the torry home that night, limited to 70km/h, and we saw a total of 47 (i think it was 47...) roos along a 20km stretch of road.
RIM
#203
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Posted 22 June 2006 - 07:47 PM
I think it's about time this thread were closed, it's turned into a bitch session
#204
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Posted 22 June 2006 - 07:54 PM
could wind the speedo and tacho of scale in 3rd and 4th in my LC XU1,
you work out speed,
original motor with some 73 GMH amended parts
this was back in late seventies when I worked in Ceduna and came home to Adelaide on weekends.
you work out speed,
original motor with some 73 GMH amended parts
this was back in late seventies when I worked in Ceduna and came home to Adelaide on weekends.
Edited by limo, 22 June 2006 - 07:57 PM.
#205
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Posted 22 June 2006 - 08:31 PM
Alrighty then......
I'm fresh in the door from adressing a public forum here within my community dealing specifically with the exceedingly high fatality rate on the roads within my shire...as well as the massive over-representation of 17-25 year olds within this statistic group.
I am not going to preach, so while I have 15+ years of experience as a post licence driving educator, i will limit my rant to be constructive in observation with NO FINGER POINTING....
So give me some space while I blurt it all out....
Here it is....
There seems to be 3 sides to this debate....
*Those who would like to put forward a top speed as a performance achievement. Me (little over 300kph in formula 4000 at PI international raceway)
* Those who want to show off and draw attention to themselves.
*Those who would like to inform/educate/chastise others for the good of ALL ROAD USERS. Me too sort of...
The reason why young drivers are over-represented amongst road fatalities is easy to understand if you take in some of the "devil may care" attitudes being put forward by some of the younger forum members.
You just can't get away with doing high speeds in an environment that is uncontrollable and put your success in "not crashing" down to having experience or GREAT CAR HANDLING SKILL.....that's rubbish.
The only thing that will save your ass(and your passengers) in an uncontrolled environment is concentration, observation and anticipation. All things that you learn with... EXPOSURE and EXPERIENCE. So being older does not automatically make you wiser!
As you get really wise or old you rapidly start to realize that CONCENTRATING on all the things to do with driving a car,whilst OBSERVING the changing environment around you as well as ANTICIPATING the opportunity for things to go wrong is a very difficult task. One that gets much harder to do as the speed increases and the environment around you changes more rapidly.
Eventually you reach CONCENTRATION OVERLOAD and can do no more, it is at this point that a decision is made as to whether or not it is importanrt enough to slow down and preserve our level of concentration or continue with a rise of speed and throw caution to the wind.
Remember luck runs out...
Once you have passed that point.. all the driving skill in the world is not going to save you from having the inevitable impact (if your luck runs out), what will change however is what you hit and how hard you hit it.
See the unskilled and out of control driver slam into a tree totally locked up. Then see the skilled driver run into the same tree with all wheels rotating and under complete conrol of the vehicle! Net result.....Hospital for both.
The trick is to leave enough room for you as the driver and the car to perform the task you want it to do (turn or stop usually). The only way to do this is to slow down when you feel that CONCENTRATION OVERLOAD.
To the younger OR less experienced road users please take the time to think about what I have said you will see it makes sense, and if you want some action and excitement in your driving, join a car club and go racing. There is speedway, motorkhana, circuit,rally, drag as well as drift now!!! So finding one you like shouldn't be too hard.
if you would like some advice on getting started.. PM me I would love to help!
Cheers Greg..
I'm fresh in the door from adressing a public forum here within my community dealing specifically with the exceedingly high fatality rate on the roads within my shire...as well as the massive over-representation of 17-25 year olds within this statistic group.
I am not going to preach, so while I have 15+ years of experience as a post licence driving educator, i will limit my rant to be constructive in observation with NO FINGER POINTING....
So give me some space while I blurt it all out....
Here it is....
There seems to be 3 sides to this debate....
*Those who would like to put forward a top speed as a performance achievement. Me (little over 300kph in formula 4000 at PI international raceway)
* Those who want to show off and draw attention to themselves.
*Those who would like to inform/educate/chastise others for the good of ALL ROAD USERS. Me too sort of...
The reason why young drivers are over-represented amongst road fatalities is easy to understand if you take in some of the "devil may care" attitudes being put forward by some of the younger forum members.
You just can't get away with doing high speeds in an environment that is uncontrollable and put your success in "not crashing" down to having experience or GREAT CAR HANDLING SKILL.....that's rubbish.
The only thing that will save your ass(and your passengers) in an uncontrolled environment is concentration, observation and anticipation. All things that you learn with... EXPOSURE and EXPERIENCE. So being older does not automatically make you wiser!
As you get really wise or old you rapidly start to realize that CONCENTRATING on all the things to do with driving a car,whilst OBSERVING the changing environment around you as well as ANTICIPATING the opportunity for things to go wrong is a very difficult task. One that gets much harder to do as the speed increases and the environment around you changes more rapidly.
Eventually you reach CONCENTRATION OVERLOAD and can do no more, it is at this point that a decision is made as to whether or not it is importanrt enough to slow down and preserve our level of concentration or continue with a rise of speed and throw caution to the wind.
Remember luck runs out...
Once you have passed that point.. all the driving skill in the world is not going to save you from having the inevitable impact (if your luck runs out), what will change however is what you hit and how hard you hit it.
See the unskilled and out of control driver slam into a tree totally locked up. Then see the skilled driver run into the same tree with all wheels rotating and under complete conrol of the vehicle! Net result.....Hospital for both.
The trick is to leave enough room for you as the driver and the car to perform the task you want it to do (turn or stop usually). The only way to do this is to slow down when you feel that CONCENTRATION OVERLOAD.
To the younger OR less experienced road users please take the time to think about what I have said you will see it makes sense, and if you want some action and excitement in your driving, join a car club and go racing. There is speedway, motorkhana, circuit,rally, drag as well as drift now!!! So finding one you like shouldn't be too hard.
if you would like some advice on getting started.. PM me I would love to help!
Cheers Greg..
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Posted 22 June 2006 - 08:51 PM
Wow, that was a good read.
Initially i was in group 1 (Those who would like to put forward a top speed as a performance achievement)
But apparently now i am in group 2, " Those who want to show off and draw attention to themselves."
^ He means Me.
and i agree with Liam, this thread has turned into a "Lets all go off at RIM" session.
Some very valid points have come up, but really, this is all about something that i did in the past that never affected anybody at all.
thankyou for your comments, except to those who just wanted to have a go at me, and i wont mention any names, and i hope any other young ones that want to go fast and "brag" about it reconsider. It's really not worth the effort.
RIM
Initially i was in group 1 (Those who would like to put forward a top speed as a performance achievement)
But apparently now i am in group 2, " Those who want to show off and draw attention to themselves."
some of the younger forum members.
^ He means Me.
and i agree with Liam, this thread has turned into a "Lets all go off at RIM" session.
Some very valid points have come up, but really, this is all about something that i did in the past that never affected anybody at all.
thankyou for your comments, except to those who just wanted to have a go at me, and i wont mention any names, and i hope any other young ones that want to go fast and "brag" about it reconsider. It's really not worth the effort.
RIM
#208
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Posted 22 June 2006 - 08:54 PM
I thought my posts were long but thats beats me
but i do have to say i couldnt have said better infact
id never think like that at all how the bloody hell do
you think of that shit then be able to write it down
my hat gos off to you 82911
AN WHATS THIS ABOUT CAPS LOCK I DONT NO
WHAT YOUR ON ABOUT
:finger:
but i do have to say i couldnt have said better infact
id never think like that at all how the bloody hell do
you think of that shit then be able to write it down
my hat gos off to you 82911
AN WHATS THIS ABOUT CAPS LOCK I DONT NO
WHAT YOUR ON ABOUT
:finger:
#209
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Posted 22 June 2006 - 09:08 PM
No Comment.
RIM
RIM
#210
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Posted 22 June 2006 - 09:11 PM
Devilsadvocate, have you got something against young drivers from the country?
Please explain if you do.
You can pull all the stats you want out, but just remember this : 47.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
RIM
Please explain if you do.
You can pull all the stats you want out, but just remember this : 47.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
RIM
#212
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Posted 22 June 2006 - 09:31 PM
The 'No Comment' was directed at TORANA IN THE BLOOD, about his CAPS LOCK.
The comment was towards Devilsadvocate, i hadnt read his post about deaths on country roads. so i replied to that. it seems to me that he thinks that country roads werent designed to be driven on, especially by people that dont have their licence. even if the unlicenced driver in question has been driving on the roads in question for a long time.
RIM
The comment was towards Devilsadvocate, i hadnt read his post about deaths on country roads. so i replied to that. it seems to me that he thinks that country roads werent designed to be driven on, especially by people that dont have their licence. even if the unlicenced driver in question has been driving on the roads in question for a long time.
RIM
#213
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Posted 22 June 2006 - 09:43 PM
Damn right 82911, Wise words indeed and alot of us could take heed of them!
The main problem i see with younger drivers ( myself included when i was a little younger) is the lack of experience leading to poor decision making skills.
Think about when you've learnt something new. Your the EXPERT right? I did a food safety course and all of a sudden here i am giving advise to people who've been in the food industry for years! You've learnt a skill and you think you now know everything.. well guess what! You DONT! youve learnt maybe 50% of whats needed and the rest comes from experience!
The only way to learn is to DO and to make the mistakes and LEARN from them... hopefully you survive them.
The moral of the story is to drive within your limits at all times. And your limits are usually always lower than you THINK they are!!
Cheers
The main problem i see with younger drivers ( myself included when i was a little younger) is the lack of experience leading to poor decision making skills.
Think about when you've learnt something new. Your the EXPERT right? I did a food safety course and all of a sudden here i am giving advise to people who've been in the food industry for years! You've learnt a skill and you think you now know everything.. well guess what! You DONT! youve learnt maybe 50% of whats needed and the rest comes from experience!
The only way to learn is to DO and to make the mistakes and LEARN from them... hopefully you survive them.
The moral of the story is to drive within your limits at all times. And your limits are usually always lower than you THINK they are!!
Cheers
#214
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Posted 22 June 2006 - 09:57 PM
I never said that i was an expert driver, i said that i had had a few years of driving experience and that i felt confident going as fast as i did.
But that might be the teen in me coming through.
if i had never been that fast i never would of known not to do it, would i?
and i survived this one.
RIM
But that might be the teen in me coming through.
if i had never been that fast i never would of known not to do it, would i?
The only way to learn is to DO and to make the mistakes... hopefully you survive them.
and i survived this one.
RIM
#215
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Posted 22 June 2006 - 10:17 PM
RIM...
take it easy mate... not every post or comment in here is directed squarely at you!
More to the devil.....and his love of statistics......
I got one for you, and one that vindicates RIM and his comments regarding young drivers.
Males under the age of 25 years of age hold 15% of all licences issued but account for 30% of all road fatalities..
The reason for this, most authorities would have us believe, is that they speed and drink/drive take risks..etc...etc..
I believe on the other hand that it is more simply explained when you consider their much higher exposure rate. Think about it... who would spend more time on the road? An 18 year old male.... or a 55 year old female? gotta be the young bloke, with his hectic social shedule...
So once you factor the exposure rate in , the statistic doesn't seem as bad as it might of at first.
A side benefit of all this extra exposure is the extra experience gained, so young male drivers learn quicker...
Now if we can get them to calm down the EGO and BRAVADO... then we will see some real improvement in the statistics...
Cheers Greg..
take it easy mate... not every post or comment in here is directed squarely at you!
More to the devil.....and his love of statistics......
I got one for you, and one that vindicates RIM and his comments regarding young drivers.
Males under the age of 25 years of age hold 15% of all licences issued but account for 30% of all road fatalities..
The reason for this, most authorities would have us believe, is that they speed and drink/drive take risks..etc...etc..
I believe on the other hand that it is more simply explained when you consider their much higher exposure rate. Think about it... who would spend more time on the road? An 18 year old male.... or a 55 year old female? gotta be the young bloke, with his hectic social shedule...
So once you factor the exposure rate in , the statistic doesn't seem as bad as it might of at first.
A side benefit of all this extra exposure is the extra experience gained, so young male drivers learn quicker...
Now if we can get them to calm down the EGO and BRAVADO... then we will see some real improvement in the statistics...
Cheers Greg..
#216
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Posted 22 June 2006 - 10:28 PM
I know that im not the only target, but saying that a 15 year old guy in a stock LJ on a dirt road pulling 160km/h definitely sparked it.
and i agree about the ego and bravado. one of my mates (a few years older) wrote off a 253, M20 LH a while ago, put it head on into a ~1000 kg lump of jade. he was in the car with a heap of mates, doin donuts around and around the roundabout. then the wheels gripped and he shot off into the aforementioned rock.
RIM
and i agree about the ego and bravado. one of my mates (a few years older) wrote off a 253, M20 LH a while ago, put it head on into a ~1000 kg lump of jade. he was in the car with a heap of mates, doin donuts around and around the roundabout. then the wheels gripped and he shot off into the aforementioned rock.
RIM
#217
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Posted 22 June 2006 - 11:57 PM
82911 has said it all...........its more about how your brain works(recognising dangerous situations and adjusting your speed/driving accordingly) that makes a good driver, rather than your ultimate skill in being able to do power slides etc, which are important if you want to be world rally champion.
Re use of stats, well thats to give our young bloods here something more concrete to go on rather than just the lecturing from as old guys. Yes its interesting to try and second guess the stats with "but the young guys drive more", but Im not sure that's true, the highest road users are in the 30-45 bracket(not sure). Interestingly now, they are getting more specific with stats and basing them on per km driven, which puts the 70+ group right up there as the most dangerous, whereas per population they were once considered the safest. If someone has the time to get all the exact figures that would be appreciated.........even if they prove me wrong.
Re use of stats, well thats to give our young bloods here something more concrete to go on rather than just the lecturing from as old guys. Yes its interesting to try and second guess the stats with "but the young guys drive more", but Im not sure that's true, the highest road users are in the 30-45 bracket(not sure). Interestingly now, they are getting more specific with stats and basing them on per km driven, which puts the 70+ group right up there as the most dangerous, whereas per population they were once considered the safest. If someone has the time to get all the exact figures that would be appreciated.........even if they prove me wrong.
#218
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Posted 23 June 2006 - 12:14 AM
You also get better..........and more experienced with different road conditionsYounger drivers are over represented in serious crashes because they take more risks. The older you get the more you realise how easy it is to get hurt/hurt someone else.
Not just risk factor..... its experience
Dirt road grip and tarmac grip are very different
I learnt to drive on Perths gravel tracks
Driving on the road when I got my licence was very different
Dirt roads will actually give you more correction time than a tarmac road due to grip levels (as long as your not totally out of control)
So be aware of overcorrecting on tarmac if your a gravel trainee
As always 82911 is on the money
Read and learn people........ young and old alike
And just for the record I have owned over 80 cars of varying performance specs
My highest road speed illegally was 215km clocked by the cops in my supercharged LC
My current racecar can run 7000 rpm in overdrive 5th (has no speedo so no idea how fast)
And I've had many cars that would struggle to 70km/h and probably get passed by a pushbike
Its fun to drive fast and on the limit
But for the safety of yourself and innocnet road users please do it on the track
#219
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Posted 23 June 2006 - 12:38 AM
Dattoman on the dirt road and tarmac subject, yes your right about tarmac is a different feeling to the dirt, but the experianced gained by over or under correcting a car is all the same..I dont drive and use statistics to decide how im gona correct my car, i go by the FEEL..
Another problem with todays statistics is the quality of cars, they are too fukn good.. A newbie driver gets his Ps and jumps in a car with power steer and ABS and the car stops and handles for him, the first time they get in trouble(lose controll) they dont know what to do and BAMM.. I lernt in shitboxs with stuff all brakes and heavy steering, now when i get in a nice new car with ABS and power steering its SO damm easy to drive it anyway i want to..
On the top speed subject, we were all young once and iv done crazy shit.. RIM what you did was just silly, nuthin else but just a silly action witch at the time you thought was harmless and just abit of fun, dont worry about it dude but just lerne fron your mistakes.
On the experiance side, even the best of us can get unstuck sometimes.. I class myself a decent driver, im not BROCKY but i can handle a car quite decently, but i can tell you now that circumstance is the biggest evil.
John
Another problem with todays statistics is the quality of cars, they are too fukn good.. A newbie driver gets his Ps and jumps in a car with power steer and ABS and the car stops and handles for him, the first time they get in trouble(lose controll) they dont know what to do and BAMM.. I lernt in shitboxs with stuff all brakes and heavy steering, now when i get in a nice new car with ABS and power steering its SO damm easy to drive it anyway i want to..
On the top speed subject, we were all young once and iv done crazy shit.. RIM what you did was just silly, nuthin else but just a silly action witch at the time you thought was harmless and just abit of fun, dont worry about it dude but just lerne fron your mistakes.
On the experiance side, even the best of us can get unstuck sometimes.. I class myself a decent driver, im not BROCKY but i can handle a car quite decently, but i can tell you now that circumstance is the biggest evil.
John
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Posted 23 June 2006 - 12:46 AM
i do security patrols most nights and i get to see alot of idiotic drivers, and i can tell you that although the younger drivers might be a lot more reckless in their driving, its the drivers in the 45+ bracket who are the ones that dont indicate or give way or are just plain arrogant/ apothetic but are clearly old enough and most likely experienced enough to know better. a relative of mine (who is 54) is a classic example, he requirely gets clocked doing speeds that the legal system would throw the book at a younger driver for doing, its got me buggered how he still has a licence, for example the last time he was done it was for doing and this is by his own admission 224kmh in a 100 zone but for some reason he was only done for 124kmh. so its not just the younger drivers who are living dangerously
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Posted 23 June 2006 - 06:54 AM
Devils......
Those are the most up to date statistics avaliable.. As compiled by F.O.R.S. (federal office of road safety).
You are spot-on about the 70+ age group....be carefull people!
Torana SS you raised a very good point, regarding the high standard of todays cars vs the older cars, particularly in the primary safety feature areas (tyres/brakes/suspension).
I would like to say something on that subject... But it will have to wait until tonight!
Gotta couple of jobs to do first.
LX8VD69....You are right about the 45+ bracket our laziest drivers. But most do come good again, usually once they drive past the scene of a fatality. Find it shocks them into thinking about there own actions. Whilst their actions aren't very courteous and inturn could cause an accident, this does not seem to be reflected within the current stats that are avaliable so I can't comment further.
DATTO... I like your style.
Re: NO speedo in the race car!...My wife came to the track with me for the first time in a long time, about 3 weeks ago, it was Eastern Creek raceway. I used the same answer when she said to me "how fast are you going through that big long turn at the end of the straight" (turn 1). I just said 4200 rpm in top (5th) I don't have a speedo 
What she didn't know is that it is actally close to 190kph!
Cheers Greg..
Those are the most up to date statistics avaliable.. As compiled by F.O.R.S. (federal office of road safety).
You are spot-on about the 70+ age group....be carefull people!
Torana SS you raised a very good point, regarding the high standard of todays cars vs the older cars, particularly in the primary safety feature areas (tyres/brakes/suspension).
I would like to say something on that subject... But it will have to wait until tonight!
Gotta couple of jobs to do first.
LX8VD69....You are right about the 45+ bracket our laziest drivers. But most do come good again, usually once they drive past the scene of a fatality. Find it shocks them into thinking about there own actions. Whilst their actions aren't very courteous and inturn could cause an accident, this does not seem to be reflected within the current stats that are avaliable so I can't comment further.
DATTO... I like your style.
Re: NO speedo in the race car!...My wife came to the track with me for the first time in a long time, about 3 weeks ago, it was Eastern Creek raceway. I used the same answer when she said to me "how fast are you going through that big long turn at the end of the straight" (turn 1). I just said 4200 rpm in top (5th) I don't have a speedo What she didn't know is that it is actally close to 190kph!
Cheers Greg..
#222
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Posted 23 June 2006 - 07:44 AM
John, are you suggesting also that safer cars elevate the road toll? There is of course the phenomenon that people will drive faster/riskier in a newer car to make the perceived risk level the same as it in an older car, but that�s why we have speed limits/road rules etc. B4 the wide use of speed cameras and radar in vic, it was quite common for a high % of drivers to travel at 70-75kmh in suburban 60kmh speed zones, because they perceived it to be safe�..now that has been brought down to ~60-65 and the suburban roads are statistically a lot safer.Another problem with todays statistics is the quality of cars, they are too fukn good.. A newbie driver gets his Ps and jumps in a car with power steer and ABS and the car stops and handles for him, the first time they get in trouble(lose controll) they dont know what to do and BAMM.. I lernt in shitboxs with stuff all brakes and heavy steering, now when i get in a nice new car with ABS and power steering its SO damm easy to drive it anyway i want to..
Its not the drivers ability to regain control of a car that has got out of control which prevents most accidents, its the ability to be able to drive within their own limits and that of the car and not get out of control. New cars work on the latter, though be it when losing control of a newer car it will happen at a higher speed, so "perhaps" cars that become uncontrollable at lower speeds have some merits?
Some driver training courses teach sliding control etc in a controlled environment, but in the split second of unexpectedly losing control on a single lane road, the ability to make the RIGHT decision and have the amount of SKILL to power out of the slide, brake or opposite lock it or whatever is necessary would be seriously lacking in all of us except for the most accomplished racing/rallying drivers(perhaps even they might not do so well unless they are 100% ready for the event)
I�m often amazed when drivers claim that they were driving safely for the conditions, when they don�t even know the most fundamental basics of their own and their vehicles performance, especially after whining about getting a speeding fine.
Here�s a challenge/homework exercise for our younger guys(possibly older too):rim010+others
State a reasonable stopping dist for a drum braked LJ from 90mph on a dirt surface that could be achieved without the vehicle losing directional control, include driver reaction time for an unexpected event in your figure. I know you read the forums everyday and you�re prob on hols now, lets see what you can come up with in 24hours.
#223
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Posted 23 June 2006 - 01:06 PM
Yes, i read the forums every day and No, im not on Holidays.
I have no idea how long it would take me to stop, but i know it wouldnt be awesome. (although my brakes arent actually that bad if not used repeatedly) I took a pretty big risk when i did it, Its a risk that I'm not gunna take again, not in the LJ anyway.
RIM
I have no idea how long it would take me to stop, but i know it wouldnt be awesome. (although my brakes arent actually that bad if not used repeatedly) I took a pretty big risk when i did it, Its a risk that I'm not gunna take again, not in the LJ anyway.
RIM
#224
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Posted 23 June 2006 - 02:31 PM
Devils im not sudgesting that safer cars have increased t he road toll, what im saying is that a newbie driver in a very well handling car will gain his confidence alot earlier then he wouldhave in a lesser car, and when he gets in trouble(lose controll) wther he was being an idiot or he was plain unlucky( being wrong or right here dosnt change anything) he wont know what to do to get himself outa trouble.. Al that his current l experiance will allow him to do is rely on the cars traction and ABS, so his foot will be hard on the brakes and the car wont stop cos its sliding to a tree or under a truck...
But you did hit the nail on the head, maybe instead of giving P platers all these hard to follow rules they should make it mandatory for a new driver to do an Advance driving course, that way they have a better chance at saving there sorry ass when they fuk up wether it was their stupidity or not that got them in their sutuation..
John
But you did hit the nail on the head, maybe instead of giving P platers all these hard to follow rules they should make it mandatory for a new driver to do an Advance driving course, that way they have a better chance at saving there sorry ass when they fuk up wether it was their stupidity or not that got them in their sutuation..
John
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Posted 23 June 2006 - 03:00 PM
John: If 'he' is relying on the cars abs and traction control then his chances of sliding towards a tree would be greatly reduced? Im sure if we put you in a lesser car with cable brakes, solid tyres etc that you would probably come a cropper too, should we all learn to drive in 100 year old cars?Al that his current l experiance will allow him to do is rely on the cars traction and ABS, so his foot will be hard on the brakes and the car wont stop cos its sliding to a tree or under a truck...
Thats not what I said, one 'stat' ive heard is that advanced driving skid control, opposite lock stuff is ineffective, or actually not conducive to reducing accident rates amongst participants(as they then drive faster because they believe they have advanced skills)........whereas courses which make people realise the level of control that they actually have.....or show them their limits are far more effective. Im sure 82911 can tell us more about that.But you did hit the nail on the head, maybe instead of giving P platers all these hard to follow rules they should make it mandatory for a new driver to do an Advance driving course, that way they have a better chance at saving there sorry ass when they fuk up wether it was their stupidity or not that got them in their sutuation..
Edited by devilsadvocate, 23 June 2006 - 03:01 PM.
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