422 replies to this topic

[Balfizar]

Have you joined the bertiestreet.com forum & had a look at the investigation for yourself Balfizar?

I have read the investigation - and have found it to be shallow and misleading.

 

Just a few examples of the NMRM 05

rear quarter "HDT" logos:- have been re -painter/signwritten ( unrepaired, unpainted original condition as raced - BS)

Paint has multiple inconsistencies across multiple panels (LOL, stand in front of the car - steve Wonder would pick it)

( Marlboro logo change highlighted with "their" photos that highlight the errors -that they could not find by eye or paint gauge)

 

Its very simple:- if the doors have not been re-sprayed/re-signwitten then thay are not the original 05 doors.

 

Harveys Headlights and Grill

Not the build article roll cage

Not Brocks Instrument panel (as per Sandown)

It has a VK Calais drivers side door (on an SL)

It has had a "VH" rear vision fitted to the door.

 

And all of the above and a lot more, overlooked, dismissed or ignored.

 

"THE" paint chips some would say insufficent resolution and detail to be conclusive, others would say close enough.

A pretty big call on smudges in similar locations.

The rear quarter damage:- given the credability issue exposed with the above items, I would have to see it for myself to make that evaluation.

 

One thing is for sure, once an idea gets in some peoples head right or wrong, with or without logic they are incapable of change.  And the zealots defend their position without a cognitive process anywhere in sight.

 

I cannot draw a conclusion based on the investigation it lacks creditibility would be a reasonable outcome given the information at hand presently.

 

Cheers

Balfizar

[Mort]

Seriously dude……..The horse has been flogged to death, let it die in peace.

 

You say your right and they are wrong…….They say they are right and you are wrong.

 

Can you see the dilemma, it's a continuous f u c k i n g circle with no f u c k i n g end, get over it.

 

Maybe it's about time this was locked and ended.

 

Sick of this shit.

[Rockoz]

Calais door hey? Would that be the door trim with the compartment at the bottom?

Same type of door trim he had in 1980.

Used it to hold the Marlboros and a lighter and relevant sponsor cap.

[Balfizar]

Calais door hey? Would that be the door trim with the compartment at the bottom?

Same type of door trim he had in 1980.

Used it to hold the Marlboros and a lighter and relevant sponsor cap.

 

NO, no map pocket on the door trim which is standard SL.

Its a Calais door with the mounting holes for the Calais door moulds punched in to the door mould channel.

And wouldn't you know it, it has had a VH rear vision mirror fitted!

 

You maybe thinking of the VC race cars that were based on an SL/E homologation.

 

Cheers

Balfizar

[Balfizar]

Seriously dude……..The horse has been flogged to death, let it die in peace.

 

You say your right and they are wrong…….They say they are right and you are wrong.

 

Can you see the dilemma, it's a continuous f u c k i n g circle with no f u c k i n g end, get over it.

 

Maybe it's about time this was locked and ended.

 

Sick of this shit.

 You are entitled to your opinion and if it would seem  you are not receptive to new information so be it.

There are some however that given the new information may well call into question the common beliefs now held.

It would also seem that there is sufficient information for this questioning to be well founded.

I think the alternative information has the potential if not the reality of shifting the common beliefs back to an "unproven" verdict

by those with the cognitive power to logically evaluate the new information.

Perhaps it is only those who will make their own decision based on all the information supplied and not be dictated to that will arrive at an informed position on this delimma.

 

Cheers

Balfizar

[Rockoz]

Gotta be Richo or his cousin

[Balfizar]

Borrowed photos

 

 

 

 

 

 

VK mirror screws are in but VH screw holes have had screws in them (on a VK door???)

Edited by Balfizar, 03 March 2014 - 07:20 PM.

[REDA9X]

Shutting down a discusion just because you don't agree with what someone says doesn't cut it with me, it's a forum everyone has an opinion, keep it civil and it's fine. The extra screw holes in the door for the mirror can have a very sinple easy explanation and that is the door had the aftermarket areodynamic mirror fitted when it was raced. A door can easily be replaced too. To say it's the 25 car with the 05 doors is just the same as saying it's the 05 car with a replacement door. That cars been in the museum a long time, and it was returned to HDT, the caretaker said to me the car seemed like a different car when it returned, parts had been changed, that wasn't long after it had finished racing and HDT chucked an engine in. Anyway I know what I've seen and I know the evidence thats out there besides what the guys at the Bertie Street forum found out. It's certianly more 05 than another Commodore mentioned

[REDA9X]

It is going in circles, but I'm not closing it , then I'll just be accussed of closing it because I don't agree with him, and I would not do that.

[Balfizar]

Shutting down a discusion just because you don't agree with what someone says doesn't cut it with me, it's a forum everyone has an opinion, keep it civil and it's fine. The extra screw holes in the door for the mirror can have a very sinple easy explanation and that is the door had the aftermarket areodynamic mirror fitted when it was raced. A door can easily be replaced too. To say it's the 25 car with the 05 doors is just the same as saying it's the 05 car with a replacement door. That cars been in the museum a long time, and it was returned to HDT, the caretaker said to me the car seemed like a different car when it returned, parts had been changed, that wasn't long after it had finished racing and HDT chucked an engine in. Anyway I know what I've seen and I know the evidence thats out there besides what the guys at the Bertie Street forum found out. It's certianly more 05 than another Commodore mentioned

"The extra screw holes in the door for the mirror can have a very sinple easy explanation and that is the door had the aftermarket areodynamic mirror fitted when it was raced."

 

A possibility, but I would not count on it until after the mounting configuration of the aero mirror is known.

 

"A door can easily be replaced too."

 

That a far cry from the original and current bertie street declaration of " untouched, unrepaired, original paint, as raced" which ignores "the caretaker said to me the car seemed like a different car when it returned, parts had been changed," and a dozen or so other paint, logo, panel and equipment changes that have been noted.

 

"that wasn't long after it had finished racing and HDT chucked an engine in."

AGP 18/11/1984 (calder support race)

Donated to the NMRM - mid 1985 (stored in the duram street workshop of the Bathurst regional Council)

Returned to HDT for refitting - mid 1985

Returned to NMRM  - pre-official hand over

Official handover - bathurst weekend 1985

Returned to HDT workshop Mid 1988 ("for a tidy up -but nothing happened to the car and it was returned" ???)

 

"HDT chucked an engine in"

Engine, gearbox and fuel system. (engine not to as raced specifications)

 

Unchallenged the general public opinion was 05 at NMRM based on the bertie street info, some enthusiasts were skeptical.

The NMRM display the car as (factory original) as it passed under the chequered flag. Even to the extent of replacing the JH1000 stickers on the front doors

that were removed before surfers.  I wonder who kept them and put them back on.  Even the NS sticker was torn - last "0" missing to give it that original raced look.

 

Challenged the drift is towards "It's certianly more 05 than another Commodore mentioned"

 

Is it just the 05 shell thats at the NMRM on display?  perhaps in time we will know.

 

Cheers

Balfizar

[Balfizar]

Seriously dude……..The horse has been flogged to death, let it die in peace.

 

You say your right and they are wrong…….They say they are right and you are wrong.

 

Can you see the dilemma, it's a continuous f u c k i n g circle with no f u c k i n g end, get over it.

 

Maybe it's about time this was locked and ended.

 

Sick of this shit.

"You say your right and they are wrong…….They say they are right and you are wrong."

I say the alternate evidence calls into question their findings and conclusion.

They and others have never said the alternate evidence is wrong, "they" have ignored it because it highlights their questionable findings and conclusion.

Others keep making excuses for the obvious inadequacies exposed and fall back behind paint chips and panel damage.

 

I can see the dilemma, it is recalcitrant people suck supporting their original beliefs because it calls into question their decision to support or believe the bertie street findings.

Dont worry a lot of people have been conned by that document. 

I also see the dilemma as too many members being afraid to wade into the debate for fear of verbal retribution (look at what I have copped so far).

It just take one member who will not be dictated to or intimidated to ask (e.g. - WTF is a Calais door doing on the NMRM 05?)  - how does that fit in the bertie street findings? etc. etc.

You see they don't want debate, they can't control it and where it might lead.

 

"it's a continuous f u c k i n g circle with no f u c k i n g end, get over it."

It will end when the philistines guarding the gates to the bertie street conclusion step aside and let democratic debate take its course.

 

"Sick of this shit."

Me too, sick of being the lone voice crying "Hang on a minute, thats not right"

 

my motivation is the truth and the truth is its own reward,

 

Cheers

Balfizar

[Neils LX]

Theres more 05 in Bathurst than 25/52/05 that went overseas. How much of the original 25/52/05 came back stuff all. Cages gone, Door Glass is gone, All panels gone, Front rails gone. Firewall does not match other HDT 05 car even thou built together. Wheres the rebuild photos of 25/52/05 car?

[Balfizar]

Theres more 05 in Bathurst than 25/52/05 that went overseas. How much of the original 25/52/05 came back stuff all. Cages gone, Door Glass is gone, All panels gone, Front rails gone. Firewall does not match other HDT 05 car even thou built together. Wheres the rebuild photos of 25/52/05 car?

Thats a rather large swing in concept form the all original declaration for the bathurst car. They did say the Bathurst car drivetrain was replaced and from other sources I believe a description of the engine was a real clunker! and If you want a real race engine it will cost you $15K????

What they failed to pointout as different, not belonging to the real 05:- (non VK group C originals)
engine (non-race spec but at least HDT sourced) - at least Burns said Champions car had one of his engines in it,
Ignition system (not period correct)
gearbox
roll cage
instrument panel
complete fuel system
Harveys headlights and grill ( they should count they are VK group C if not original on the real 05 VK)
Oh and at least 1 VK Calais door
Has anyone checked the very expensive Harrop braking system is still on the Bathurst car - I'd be suprised if it was.

Yep, there could be a shell and most panels of a big banger at Bathurst. It might still be able to get s COD from CAMS.
But then again so could the champion car, all modifications during a known racing history could be acceptable to CAMS and the vehicle restored to Group C spec.
But Rowan would tidy that concept up a tad.

By the way, as it was published in a national magazine no restoration items were hidden and it was very open as to what was restored.
Could you say the same thing about the Bathurst car.

Awesome progress to get to what bits are left that were real 05 items,

How does a shell and diff compare to a partial shell and drivetrain and brakes and fuel system??

At least we have moved on from all original, to that shell at bathurst could be the real 05.

Got to love that!

Cheers
Balfizar

Edited by Balfizar, 09 March 2014 - 07:32 PM.

[Redzone]

Even IF the nmrm car is only the real 05 shell, with cooking spec parts bolted to it, it's a car that still would get a cams c of d. Champion's car wouldn't I'd say, definitely not as 05. If he does sell that car as being 05 he's leaving himself very open to legal action.

[Balfizar]

Even IF the nmrm car is only the real 05 shell, with cooking spec parts bolted to it, it's a car that still would get a cams c of d. Champion's car wouldn't I'd say, definitely not as 05. If he does sell that car as being 05 he's leaving himself very open to legal action.

Champion already has a continuation logbook "with 05 photo in it" issued by CAMS, that is not a COD but I am guessing they CAMS would have to backpedal out of that one if Champion would ever seek a COD.

 

Cheers

Balfizar

[Balfizar]

I always thought going from every other discussion that a cars identity was the shell, an original XU-1 with a re-shell is no longer a XU-1 and so on and so forth, the cars identity is based on body shell number not engine or drive train or brakes or fuel system or mirror but the body shell

If you are talking road cars matching numbers is the ultimate and chassis number the base and I believe the common approach to road cars.

 

"therefore regardless of what motor drive train brakes etc is on the car the car identity is what it is, in this case the Bathurst museum car is the original 05 that won Bathurst in 1984, "

 

Its a different story with race cars according to CAMS

Its a pity CAMS cannot identify the NMRM car by logbook or database, i don't think an undamaged rear quarter is in their criteria for assigning a Bathurst win.

 

that it is not in original condition is neither here nor there.

 Not unless you count by deception or incompetence you were lead to believe (unpainted, undamaged, no panels swapped, as raced)

 

For me there is one proof that the Bathurst car is 05, Harvey was punted off at turn one by George Fury mid race, the passenger side rear quarter was damaged,

Yes seen the video and photos

 

 

The car at Bathurst museum shows no sign of any damage in the rear quarter or any signs of repair.

Given that they so badly missed so many neither here nor there items(especially paint) I think for credibility sake I'd like to hear from a real expert on that one.

 

Therefore it is not the Harvey car, ergo it must be 05,

There are somewhere between 20 and 30 items that define a HDT race shell of this era  and more by the way they are done that what was done. (The Perkins touch)

I think you would have to identify and check off the list to say a HDT race shell and very hard to differentiate between Harveys car and any other VK group C HDTproduced race shell.

Its far to hard to go through a lengthy and difficult process of verification just take it for granted that its one of two and leave it at that.

Then you can comfortably jump to " Therefore it is not the Harvey car, ergo it must be 05,"

Given the volume of changes to the NMRM car its going to take more than day-glo, 05 and a number stamp to be thorough.

 

stickers doors mirrors and running gear can and may have been changed

No according to the investigation or is it now selective criteria which is irrefutable and credibility is only attached to the items which have not been proved to be wrong!

but the shell is the shell is the shell

Sure is and until I hear from from an expert with some credibility I will remain undecided.

 

Cheers

Balfizar

Edited by Balfizar, 10 March 2014 - 09:10 PM.

[REDA9X]

Whether you agree with the investigation on the bertie street forum or not, and clearly you don't from what you wrote there and continue to to here, there is other evidence that will only come to light if the QLD car is sold as 05.

I've seen some of it, I am not willing to say who has it or what it is for good reason, but it's there.

Just remember, only one person ever said the Champion car was 05, and that bloke couldn't even remember what diff ratio they used at Bathurst....