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More Triple SU dramas


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#26 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 11:56 AM

Its not pouring through, but you can see it running through the hose very clearly.




Also, I couldnt see any chamfer, all the throttle plates are facing the same way.



new filter didnt fix, but a new rotor did - the old one had partly cracked the plastic lug which positions the thing on the distibutor shaft, therfore allowing ~5deg of movement. Any ideas as to how this happens?



But lo and behold, we have more dramas. Since putting the new rotor in, I took it for a 2 min drive, then parked it. Work took over and I didnt get a chance to check the mixtures, until yesterday. Oldjohnno's tuning method (from brendan_h's thread) and the tuning method in my SU book, tell me its running lean (engine stumbles when the piston it lifted 1.5-2mm). The black smoke from the exhaust, and the smell of the exhuast tell me its running rich. And it backfires through the exhaust (followed by large puffs of black smoke) on overrun (in gear), or when you floor it then take your foot off (in neutral, when parked).


Do you have an aftermarket rocker cover? If so I'd try a stocker to see if it helps to stop so much oil getting to the pcv. If you already have a stocker you might have to get creative and see if you can improve the baffling. A rough but effective design is a small upturned canister attached to the top of the rocker cover (imagine something the size of half a soup tin with the closed end on top) the floor of the canister (top of the rocker box) should have 20 or so 4mm or 5mm holes drilled in it like a salt shaker. Pack the canister with stainless scouring pads and stick the pcv in the top.

Plastic bits like rotors and caps crack eventually through sheer old age. Make sure the ignition (leads, plugs etc) is 100% - it's pointless trying to tune it if there is any dodginess in the spark department. A bit extra static advance will probably help response, especially if the engines a bit tired. Try 12 - 14 static and 30 odd total.

Be careful not to lift the slide too far - if you do it will always give the indication of being lean. Try it again lifting the slide no more than 1mm. If it's blowing black smoke it's seriously rich. If it turns out that the mixture is fine at certain speeds but not at others you may need different needles, though I'd expect the supplier would have given you something pretty close. At any rate if it's smoking and popping it's grossly out of tune and will go much better once it's adjusted.

Is the butterfly sticky with the carb off? If so you'll just have find out whats bent or misaligned and fix it. If it's free when it's off the car but binds when you bolt it up check that the flanges are flat and not causing the throttle housing to distort when you bolt it up.

#27 _mello92_

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 06:46 PM

Yeah mate, its aftermarket, just look at the pic I posted on the last page. Is there any chance a new PCV would somehow fix the problem?

What should be the resistance of a good lead?

I retuned it, and its as good as I think I can get it. Carbs 1 and 3 are slightly lean, but lifting the piston in carb 2 doesnt have any affect on engine revs. Under full throttle (only in 1st, 2nd and 3rd) it blows a visible amount fo black smoke. It doesnt backfire any more on overrun. Im convinced I need different needles, what do you think? Ive got OA6's in there at the moment.

Taking number 3 carb off is a serious pain, but yes, I'll take it off sometime. The flanges better be flat, I paid $150 for them to be flycut at JB Auto.

#28 greens nice

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 08:40 PM

Yeah mate, its aftermarket, just look at the pic I posted on the last page. Is there any chance a new PCV would somehow fix the problem?

What should be the resistance of a good lead?

I retuned it, and its as good as I think I can get it. Carbs 1 and 3 are slightly lean, but lifting the piston in carb 2 doesnt have any affect on engine revs. Under full throttle (only in 1st, 2nd and 3rd) it blows a visible amount fo black smoke. It doesnt backfire any more on overrun. Im convinced I need different needles, what do you think? Ive got OA6's in there at the moment.

Taking number 3 carb off is a serious pain, but yes, I'll take it off sometime. The flanges better be flat, I paid $150 for them to be flycut at JB Auto.



RH needles are a rich needle, OA6 needles are a fairly rich needle, used for drag racing etc. OA7 are leaner and being better for a stocker and mild mill. i would have thought that OA6's would have been too rich for your application, are you sure its running lean.

What needle and seat are you using? standard, drilled out seat and standard needle or the Gross alcohol needle and seat with the ball on the end?

You will usually have problems with them leaking if you have drilled out the seat.

cheers kevin

#29 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 09:19 PM

Yeah mate, its aftermarket, just look at the pic I posted on the last page. Is there any chance a new PCV would somehow fix the problem?

What should be the resistance of a good lead?

I retuned it, and its as good as I think I can get it. Carbs 1 and 3 are slightly lean, but lifting the piston in carb 2 doesnt have any affect on engine revs. Under full throttle (only in 1st, 2nd and 3rd) it blows a visible amount fo black smoke. It doesnt backfire any more on overrun. Im convinced I need different needles, what do you think? Ive got OA6's in there at the moment.

Taking number 3 carb off is a serious pain, but yes, I'll take it off sometime. The flanges better be flat, I paid $150 for them to be flycut at JB Auto.


I doubt a new PCV would do much, though it wouldn't hurt to check that the little poppet in the valve isn't stuck wide open. What you need to do is stop the oil from getting into the PCV..

Not sure about the leads, I haven't checked any for years but I think it's something like 10 or 15k per foot. I just replace them every few years.

Something doesn't quite add up with the richness of the carbs - RHs are a very common needle with red sixes, and the OA6 is a bit leaner than them and yet it's still rich enough to smoke... what springs are you using? Did you replace the jets? The HIFs needles are lightly spring loaded and the needle rubs on one side of the jet. Over time the jet and needle wear and the engine runs progressively richer. It doesn't take much wear to have an effect; a thou or two is enough and you generally can't spot it by eye until it's grossly worn.
Anyhow I wouldn't rush out and buy more needles yet, I'd get the dodgy throttle plate and the oil pullover fixed first and maybe replace the jets if they are of unknown age. It just seems odd that it's so rich that it smokes with OA6s..
Take it out and flog it and do a plug chop just to double check the mixture and distribution - it's possible that the excess fuel and smoke is coming from one carb.

#30 rodomo

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 09:27 PM

Not sure about the leads, I haven't checked any for years but I think it's something like 10 or 15k per foot. I just replace them every few years.


4K per foot.

#31 wingnut

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 10:30 PM


Yeah mate, its aftermarket, just look at the pic I posted on the last page. Is there any chance a new PCV would somehow fix the problem?

What should be the resistance of a good lead?

I retuned it, and its as good as I think I can get it. Carbs 1 and 3 are slightly lean, but lifting the piston in carb 2 doesnt have any affect on engine revs. Under full throttle (only in 1st, 2nd and 3rd) it blows a visible amount fo black smoke. It doesnt backfire any more on overrun. Im convinced I need different needles, what do you think? Ive got OA6's in there at the moment.

Taking number 3 carb off is a serious pain, but yes, I'll take it off sometime. The flanges better be flat, I paid $150 for them to be flycut at JB Auto.


I doubt a new PCV would do much, though it wouldn't hurt to check that the little poppet in the valve isn't stuck wide open. What you need to do is stop the oil from getting into the PCV..

Not sure about the leads, I haven't checked any for years but I think it's something like 10 or 15k per foot. I just replace them every few years.

Something doesn't quite add up with the richness of the carbs - RHs are a very common needle with red sixes, and the OA6 is a bit leaner than them and yet it's still rich enough to smoke... what springs are you using? Did you replace the jets? The HIFs needles are lightly spring loaded and the needle rubs on one side of the jet. Over time the jet and needle wear and the engine runs progressively richer. It doesn't take much wear to have an effect; a thou or two is enough and you generally can't spot it by eye until it's grossly worn.
Anyhow I wouldn't rush out and buy more needles yet, I'd get the dodgy throttle plate and the oil pullover fixed first and maybe replace the jets if they are of unknown age. It just seems odd that it's so rich that it smokes with OA6s..
Take it out and flog it and do a plug chop just to double check the mixture and distribution - it's possible that the excess fuel and smoke is coming from one carb.



#32 wingnut

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 11:27 PM

Mello

Sorry for my last botched post attempt.

I agree with OJ - one carby is probably running too rich - No. 3.
Suggest you check the choke mechanism on that carb to ensure the jet is returning to its
normal running position after using the choke on initial start up.
After road testing the car pull the suction chambers and pistons off
all 3 carbs and check that the jets are sitting the same distance below the bridges. You will possibly
find that No 3 jet is sitting lower than 1 & 2 giving too rich a mixture on cylinders 5 & 6.
I had similar hassles with twin SUs recently and found the choke malfunction on one carby and worn jets
were the culprits - car runs well now.

Cheers JR

#33 _mello92_

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 10:25 PM

I doubt a new PCV would do much, though it wouldn't hurt to check that the little poppet in the valve isn't stuck wide open. What you need to do is stop the oil from getting into the PCV..

Not sure about the leads, I haven't checked any for years but I think it's something like 10 or 15k per foot. I just replace them every few years.

Something doesn't quite add up with the richness of the carbs - RHs are a very common needle with red sixes, and the OA6 is a bit leaner than them and yet it's still rich enough to smoke... what springs are you using? Did you replace the jets? The HIFs needles are lightly spring loaded and the needle rubs on one side of the jet. Over time the jet and needle wear and the engine runs progressively richer. It doesn't take much wear to have an effect; a thou or two is enough and you generally can't spot it by eye until it's grossly worn.
Anyhow I wouldn't rush out and buy more needles yet, I'd get the dodgy throttle plate and the oil pullover fixed first and maybe replace the jets if they are of unknown age. It just seems odd that it's so rich that it smokes with OA6s..
Take it out and flog it and do a plug chop just to double check the mixture and distribution - it's possible that the excess fuel and smoke is coming from one carb.


The little poppet in the valve isnt stuck open, it moves freely. Red springs in the suction chamber, the jets are new, and the needles are not spring loaded as far as I know. I looked for them when I put the OA6'S in, but didnt see any. As for the throttle plate on that carb, it has approx 2-3thou side-side movement. The other two carbs have absolutely no movement at all. To check this I had the tops off to look at the plates.

4K per foot.


Thank you kindly.

Mello

Sorry for my last botched post attempt.

I agree with OJ - one carby is probably running too rich - No. 3.
Suggest you check the choke mechanism on that carb to ensure the jet is returning to its
normal running position after using the choke on initial start up.
After road testing the car pull the suction chambers and pistons off
all 3 carbs and check that the jets are sitting the same distance below the bridges. You will possibly
find that No 3 jet is sitting lower than 1 & 2 giving too rich a mixture on cylinders 5 & 6.
I had similar hassles with twin SUs recently and found the choke malfunction on one carby and worn jets
were the culprits - car runs well now.

Cheers JR


Good point about the choke; it was open about 2-3mm. Not sure if its enough to have an affect, but anyways, its closed now.


Had another tuning session tonight, and Im positive Ive found the problem. The piston on No. 3 carb, the one pulling more air, is being held up somehow. Its not just at idle either, I tested upto 3500rpm and it was always pulling more air than the other two. Its also doing the majority of the idle too. Blocking the intakes on 1 and 2 makes bugger all difference. Looks like that carb is going to have to come off and see what the bloody problem is. Oh, and the manifold isnt restricting/ blocking the movement of the throttle plate on any of the carbs.

Kevin, just the standard needle and seat mate.

Cheers for the help fellas.

#34 _mello92_

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 07:44 PM

What if I use 15W-40 in No.3, but ATF in the other 2?

Slightly thicker oil slows the piston rising, yeah?

#35 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 07:55 PM

No.
Fix it properly and be done with it. If 3 is a pain to get off just pull the whole manifold off. It'll be much quicker and easier.
Don't put it back on until all the throttles return smoothly and consistently and all the slides fall (with a click) to the bottom under their own weight. If there is any doubt about anything fix it before putting it back on. Otherwise you'll be stuffing around with them forever.

#36 _mello92_

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 08:49 PM

Right, manifold coming off in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1....

The oil thing didnt work anyway, but I guess you knew that.

#37 _mello92_

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 09:07 AM

Hows this sound:

The port on the side of No 3 carb where I was getting vacuum from has two inlets into the throat of the carb. One goes straight into the throat (air cleaner side of the butterfly) and the other travels down the side of the carb and enters near the face which mounts to the manifold. Effectively, what Ive done is bypassed the butterfly. I think that, even though the butterfly was fully closed, the engine was drawing air (and fuel) through that port, yes?

Anyway, Ive pugged that port again, and Im going to glue a 1/8" tail into the top of the carb - so I can get vacuum from where its supposed to come from.

Thanks again.

#38 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 06:30 PM

Isn't the hole in the flange face blocked by the gasket when it's bolted to the manifold?

#39 _mello92_

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 06:57 PM

Yep, it is. But that same passage enters into the throat on the manifold side of the butterfly. See?

Anyhow, I fixed that vacuum problem, bolted them all back on, changed the oil to 15W-40 in all three carbs (I was using ATF), tuned them, got them almost spot on. It blows black smoke when I floor it but it stops once I reach the revs I want (eg. floor it till it gets to 5000RPM or whatever).

But we now have more pressing issues. Took it for a drive after tuning, and while coasting at 60k's, the thing just switched off - it was still turning over, had oil pressure, but no spark. Odd, because I changed the plugs before I started tuning it. Turns out the rotor button (the ceramic/porcelain button on the underside of the dizzy cap) had broke off. Got a new dizzy cap, go to start it...turns over, but...no fire. Check lead order, and timing...go to start it...nothing. The starter has a small tick, as if it wants to engage, but it obviously isnt. I should add that the battery is in very good condition.

Where do I start?

#40 _mello92_

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 08:42 PM

Got it - stuck starter solenoid. Tap it with the key on start and it gooooooooes!

How to fix?

#41 _threeblindmice_

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 08:54 PM

Another starter motor is easy , You are going to know every bit about your car after all this ,then it becomes fun !

#42 rodomo

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 09:22 PM

Yes. In my experiance a stuck solenoid is rare compared to worn brushes and worn solenoid contacts.
Tapping the starter usually re-establishes a bad connection within the starter rather than freeing a stuck solenoid.
Reco the whole thing, get a C/O or even new are resonably cheap.

#43 greens nice

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 09:34 PM

Yes. In my experiance a stuck solenoid is rare compared to worn brushes and worn solenoid contacts.
Tapping the starter usually re-establishes a bad connection within the starter rather than freeing a stuck solenoid.
Reco the whole thing, get a C/O or even new are resonably cheap.



i had my starter motor, the big one, bead blasted painted and a 250 falcon motor put into the body (yes i know, but, it has a higher torque rating) for $150, so theyre not that bad.
or $20 at a wreckers for an old one?

Edited by greens nice, 17 December 2009 - 09:35 PM.


#44 _mello92_

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 09:42 PM

It isnt completely stuck - sounds like its a combo of old unknown age and bad connections.

Anyway its coming off tomorrow.

Can anyone reccomend where to get a new one, and which brand/s?

Will try the Wreckers, maybe Repco if I can get there, tomorrow.


Sorry Kev - missed your post.

Edited by mello92, 17 December 2009 - 09:43 PM.


#45 rodomo

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 10:07 PM

Repco or Bursons
Part No. BXH137

#46 _mello92_

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 10:09 PM

Too deadly.

Fanks!




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