Given that it would be a mechanical linkage, why can't you set it up the way you want. It would only be a matter of hooking linkages up and sometimes the simple way is often the best.
cheers
Glenn
My newer Monaro
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, Apr 09 2006 11:22 PM
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#401
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Posted 01 September 2011 - 03:01 PM
#402
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Posted 01 September 2011 - 03:17 PM
sweet, thats exactly what i need too! keep them coming haha 
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#403
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Posted 01 September 2011 - 03:23 PM
Yep, unless i can find some awesome pwm motor the solinoid that opens or closes the valve would be the simplest way. If i could afford heaps of dyno time im guessing i could figure out what length runners/rpm made the best power. If i was going to keep it simple i would probably just dyno with long trumpets, dyno with short and workout where to make the switch that way .
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#404
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Posted 01 September 2011 - 03:32 PM
All that aside (and apart from the fact you just want to :-) ), I was reading that a cold air box produces more power than velocity tubes (Not an expert here).
Just what I read. It said that you make more horsepower from colder air than the stacks will provide.
cheers
Glenn
PS do you have any specs on the stepper motor you would like? I have a friend that knows a bit about these.
Just what I read. It said that you make more horsepower from colder air than the stacks will provide.
cheers
Glenn
PS do you have any specs on the stepper motor you would like? I have a friend that knows a bit about these.
Edited by r2160, 01 September 2011 - 03:33 PM.
#405
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Posted 01 September 2011 - 04:01 PM
Pord Palcon use vacuum to operate their variable runner manifold. I dunno if it's an "on/off" thing but it wouldn't take much googling to find out?
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#406
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Posted 01 September 2011 - 04:36 PM
^ Toyota also had their TVIS system on the blue top 4age motor, they had quite a big intake port and the variable runners where needed to keep a bit more torque down low Iit was an on/off thing and i imagine the falcon is the same). I imagine the variable runners would be best in a similar situation where your head/cam is matched for high revs and you want to keep a flatter torque curve. With the cross ram manifold you have it might be overkill (you are right, alot of dyno time would be needed to dial it in). You have the opportunity to space out the butterflies out if need be and I bet some gains could be made playing around with them.
But sometimes its cool to build it coz ya can..
I think holley sold a 4bbl injection system which had stack injection, not sure if they ever took off.
Real keen to see what you make of this after the smart work with the celica
But sometimes its cool to build it coz ya can..
I think holley sold a 4bbl injection system which had stack injection, not sure if they ever took off.
Real keen to see what you make of this after the smart work with the celica
Edited by nzstato, 01 September 2011 - 04:48 PM.
#407
View GaragePosted 01 September 2011 - 05:18 PM
A standard GM IAC runs off a stepper motor doesn't it? Should be a piece of cake to program a standard output, building the physical mechanism is the hard part
#408
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Posted 01 September 2011 - 06:07 PM
All that aside (and apart from the fact you just want to :-) ), I was reading that a cold air box produces more power than velocity tubes (Not an expert here).
Just what I read. It said that you make more horsepower from colder air than the stacks will provide.
cheers
Glenn
PS do you have any specs on the stepper motor you would like? I have a friend that knows a bit about these.
I'm thinking i will make an aluminium box that goes around the trumpets so i can use a single panel filter rather than individual socks. Then i was thinking that box could seal agents the bonnet and have some little desecrate hk/t/g gts style scoops, one on each side. I know it won't be quite as fancy looking with a box around them, but all that could be removed if i was to take it to shows or something
. So hopefully i can have adjustable runners and cold air. No point sucking the air from right above the extractors...As for the stepper motor, i don't know what id be after really. Here is a little info on the pwm outputs... I guess i would need some kind of controller that would accept pwm and output something to the stepper motor, otherwise the motor would just oscillate at whatever frequency i specify (unless thats how they work, i dont know... need to do more research on that one). My boost controller in the celica is a basic pwm output and a oscillating valve...
Pord Palcon use vacuum to operate their variable runner manifold. I dunno if it's an "on/off" thing but it wouldn't take much googling to find out?
Looks like it could possibly run anywhere in-between since its just using a vacuum diaphragm. Bit primitive tho
...^ Toyota also had their TVIS system on the blue top 4age motor, they had quite a big intake port and the variable runners where needed to keep a bit more torque down low Iit was an on/off thing and i imagine the falcon is the same). I imagine the variable runners would be best in a similar situation where your head/cam is matched for high revs and you want to keep a flatter torque curve. With the cross ram manifold you have it might be overkill (you are right, alot of dyno time would be needed to dial it in). You have the opportunity to space out the butterflies out if need be and I bet some gains could be made playing around with them.
But sometimes its cool to build it coz ya can..
I would really love to know how the F1 cars do this, or even motorbikes that run variable length runners. I imagine that they are keeping it simple and its just an on/off situation as-well. I think the F1 cars might just lengthen and shorten multiple times throughout the rev range not just at 10,000rpm switch to short but I'm not 100% sure on that.
This whole exercise is just coz ya can, its different and fun. Why not put the spare MS outputs to good use
.A standard GM IAC runs off a stepper motor doesn't it? Should be a piece of cake to program a standard output, building the physical mechanism is the hard part
Do you know if you apply PWM signal straight to the stepper motor, i have nfi how that works... lots more reading to do tonight
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#409
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Posted 01 September 2011 - 06:28 PM
It looks like stepper motors can be directly connected to a pwm controller. from a wiki... "PWM controls use pulse width modulation to regulate the current sent to the motor. Unlike SCR controls which switch at line frequency, PWM controls produce smoother current at higher switching frequencies, typically between 1 and 20 kHz." I will have to find out how much current the circuit can handle tho.
<edit> meh, having an variable system adds way to much complication to the project. KISS i think
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<edit> meh, having an variable system adds way to much complication to the project. KISS i think
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Edited by jabba, 01 September 2011 - 06:38 PM.
#410
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Posted 01 September 2011 - 07:27 PM
This video is a good demonstration of a constantly variable setup. Id imagine it would be a lot more important on a high revving engine than a engine only designed to rev to 5,000rpm ...
#411
Posted 01 September 2011 - 08:45 PM
Seems kind of pointless having a variable intake if you only use max and min lengths, if you're not keen on going the whole hog shelve the idea for later resurrection... :-)
#412
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Posted 01 September 2011 - 08:51 PM
Min/max length would still have benefits over a static length tho, as shorter would give better top end, long = better low down torque... But yeah I'm still trying to find an linear actuator that can do what i want. I've found one for $150 that can move 9" per second with 4" extension, problem is its like 13.5" long overall. and quite thick.
There is no need to be so negative about it tho, I'm doing this all for a bit of fun. Variable length runners arnt a new idea, i'm just trying to do something different. I've seen dyne graphs where people have tested long and short stacks and it does move the power around, they have even used a combination of short and long stacks on one engine to broaden the torque so its not that far fetched to think it will work for me...
There is no need to be so negative about it tho, I'm doing this all for a bit of fun. Variable length runners arnt a new idea, i'm just trying to do something different. I've seen dyne graphs where people have tested long and short stacks and it does move the power around, they have even used a combination of short and long stacks on one engine to broaden the torque so its not that far fetched to think it will work for me...
Edited by jabba, 01 September 2011 - 08:59 PM.
#413
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Posted 01 September 2011 - 09:05 PM
all i know is that sounds erotic 
[quote name='jabba' timestamp='1314874282' post='617552']
Min/max length would still have benefits over a static length tho, as shorter would give better top end, long = better low down torque... But yeah I'm still trying to find an linear actuator that can do what i want. I've found one for $150 that can move 9" per second with 4" extension, problem is its like 13.5" long overall. and quite thick.
[quote name='jabba' timestamp='1314874282' post='617552']
Min/max length would still have benefits over a static length tho, as shorter would give better top end, long = better low down torque... But yeah I'm still trying to find an linear actuator that can do what i want. I've found one for $150 that can move 9" per second with 4" extension, problem is its like 13.5" long overall. and quite thick.
#415
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Posted 01 September 2011 - 09:26 PM
could you use a stepper motor with a crank/connecting rod setup which pushes a small master ctlinder (think motor bike) which pushes a slave to push the stacks up and down?
This way you can mount the stepper and master anywhere, hide under gaurd etc, and only have a compact slave mounted next to the stacks
shouldnt be hard to make a custom slave at whatever length needed
This way you can mount the stepper and master anywhere, hide under gaurd etc, and only have a compact slave mounted next to the stacks
shouldnt be hard to make a custom slave at whatever length needed
Edited by Bart, 01 September 2011 - 09:27 PM.
#416
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Posted 01 September 2011 - 09:33 PM
What about a stepper motor mounted in the middle of the manifold with a large wheel, the stepper motor spins the wheel which could have a rod attached to it that then pushes/pulls the stacks. Just have one rod for each side... (think video below)
Going the hydraulic way, you could have a solenoid push a master cylinder (i do have a spare bike one) that could act on some slaves... But i guess you may as well just hook the solenoid straight up to some mechanical linkages...
For a really simple method what about a solenoid hooked up like the youtube video below... Solenoid pulls on that wheel, that pulls the stacks closer then just use a spring to return...
Going the hydraulic way, you could have a solenoid push a master cylinder (i do have a spare bike one) that could act on some slaves... But i guess you may as well just hook the solenoid straight up to some mechanical linkages...
For a really simple method what about a solenoid hooked up like the youtube video below... Solenoid pulls on that wheel, that pulls the stacks closer then just use a spring to return...
Edited by jabba, 01 September 2011 - 09:34 PM.
#417
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Posted 01 September 2011 - 09:53 PM
the thing with a solenoid is that they normally go out all the way and in all the way, no in between as far as i know. Stepper will do what ever you tell it, at different rates and speed. And its good practice to try and keep electrics away from the heat if possible, which is why the stepper can be placed anywhere with hydrolicsWhat about a stepper motor mounted in the middle of the manifold with a large wheel, the stepper motor spins the wheel which could have a rod attached to it that then pushes/pulls the stacks. Just have one rod for each side... (think video below)
Going the hydraulic way, you could have a solenoid push a master cylinder (i do have a spare bike one) that could act on some slaves... But i guess you may as well just hook the solenoid straight up to some mechanical linkages...
For a really simple method what about a solenoid hooked up like the youtube video below... Solenoid pulls on that wheel, that pulls the stacks closer then just use a spring to return...
Edited by Bart, 01 September 2011 - 09:55 PM.
#418
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Posted 01 September 2011 - 09:59 PM
hmmmmmm, bugger. hydraulics sound like added complications? I wonder how hot it gets in the middle of the manifold... Stepper motor does sound like the way to go, heat shield? ha .
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#419
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Posted 01 September 2011 - 10:01 PM
Im pretty sure Jaycar have a kit with a variable resistor which can attach to your throttle which will vary the inputs of the stepper driver/controller which will drive the motor.
Another version is to replace the variable resistor with a vacum/pressure sensor
Another version is to replace the variable resistor with a vacum/pressure sensor
I dont think it would be too complexhmmmmmm, bugger. hydraulics sound like added complications? I wonder how hot it gets in the middle of the manifold... Stepper motor does sound like the way to go, heat shield? ha
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Posted 01 September 2011 - 10:04 PM
So what do you think, make the setup as talked about with the stepper motor but rather than mounting the stepper motor on the manifold, connect the slave cylinder at that end and connect the stepper motor to the master cylinder at the other end?
#421
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Posted 01 September 2011 - 10:08 PM
I think so, like a hydrolic clutch setup, its basically the way it appears to be done in the you tube video. Thats what im basing it off as im sure they would have tried different ways and probably settled with hydrolic or pneumatic cylinders. The other thing is if you use a Jaycar kit or similar, (stand alone system) it may have more flexability than using one of your PWM outputs.So what do you think, make the setup as talked about with the stepper motor but rather than mounting the stepper motor on the manifold, connect the slave cylinder at that end and connect the stepper motor to the master cylinder at the other end?
Edited by Bart, 01 September 2011 - 10:11 PM.
#422
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Posted 01 September 2011 - 10:13 PM
Ahh, the actuator they use in the video is a 24v linear actuator. all electric. Fancy fancy stuff, i bet it cost a mint!
A quick google shows results for hydraulic stepper motors, could be an option. I'm thinking the vectra linkage setup for moving the stacks (with the centre connected to a hydraulic slave cylinder), since i won't be making my stacks anywhere near as long as that beast.
A quick google shows results for hydraulic stepper motors, could be an option. I'm thinking the vectra linkage setup for moving the stacks (with the centre connected to a hydraulic slave cylinder), since i won't be making my stacks anywhere near as long as that beast.
#423
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Posted 01 September 2011 - 10:18 PM
Ok
Think of price also. Price of the electric actuator the the controller to run it but then you want to use your PWM out put. You may be right
http://www.jaycar.co...or&form=KEYWORD
Think of price also. Price of the electric actuator the the controller to run it but then you want to use your PWM out put. You may be right
http://www.jaycar.co...or&form=KEYWORD
#424
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Posted 01 September 2011 - 10:23 PM
I think if the PWM output on the MS could be used that would be ideal, as you can get a 8x8 table to control the output with. The ms just grounds the device at a pre-defined frequency to control current flow... So surely you could use that to push something more or less?
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Posted 01 September 2011 - 10:24 PM
How do you vary the PWM? Im a bit rusty with electronics, havnt thought of it for a few yearsI think if the PWM output on the MS could be used that would be ideal, as you can get a 8x8 table to control the output with. The ms just grounds the device at a pre-defined frequency to control current flow... So surely you could use that to push something more or less?
Edited by Bart, 01 September 2011 - 10:25 PM.
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