I know 2pac is an allround better paint but its only really safe to be done in a booth and that goes the same for the 2pac undercoat, so to take my car to a panel shop to only spray you literally get skinned alive!
Can anyone tell me if they know of a 2pac type clear used over acylic paints, from what little ive heard it gives more protection against chips etc compared to the older acrylic type clear coats.
painting 2pac or acrylic
Started by
_gtr161s_
, Apr 11 2006 05:27 PM
41 replies to this topic
#2
_dave720gtr_
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Posted 11 April 2006 - 05:56 PM
yer but it dosnt bond to the acrylic ie... it sheets off in time
cheers...
cheers...
#3
_Pete_
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Posted 11 April 2006 - 06:27 PM
As Dave has explained 2 pack clear over acrylic base will eventually de-laminate (the clear will peel off in big sheets) and the finish will always not look quite right. Acrylic paint will last if cared for properly there's no reason to not use it if you dont have the means to do/have a complete 2pack job.
And anyway if you want to put on 2pack clear anyway, you may as well use 2pack basecoat as well.
The nasty part of 2 pack paint (isocyanates) is mainly in the Hardener, you don't use any hardener in metallic/pearl basecoats, only Clears,Primers and Solid colours(white,red etc)
If you do have to go a 2pack Clear over acrylic there's a product made by HiChem paints called 2Pack ISO-FREE CLEAR, which doesnt contain any isocyanates. It says its can be used over acrylic lacquer. I haven't tried this product nor have seen a job painted in it. I don't imagine the longevity of this product would be great as i'm guessing it was designed with the industrial/backyard/car yard style painter in mind who doesnt have to guarantee their work in a years time.
If you can't afford/have the access to a full 2 pack job i'd highly recommend putting in the extra effort like so many guys here have and go an Acrylic job. Done right and cared for correctly the finish will be very nice.
And anyway if you want to put on 2pack clear anyway, you may as well use 2pack basecoat as well.
The nasty part of 2 pack paint (isocyanates) is mainly in the Hardener, you don't use any hardener in metallic/pearl basecoats, only Clears,Primers and Solid colours(white,red etc)
If you do have to go a 2pack Clear over acrylic there's a product made by HiChem paints called 2Pack ISO-FREE CLEAR, which doesnt contain any isocyanates. It says its can be used over acrylic lacquer. I haven't tried this product nor have seen a job painted in it. I don't imagine the longevity of this product would be great as i'm guessing it was designed with the industrial/backyard/car yard style painter in mind who doesnt have to guarantee their work in a years time.
If you can't afford/have the access to a full 2 pack job i'd highly recommend putting in the extra effort like so many guys here have and go an Acrylic job. Done right and cared for correctly the finish will be very nice.
#4
_gtr161s_
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Posted 12 April 2006 - 09:57 PM
Thanks for the advice Pete. The panel shop basically told me the bad points on acrylic ie UV protection hardness etc, so considering this car wont see the road or sun like a daily driver the paint should last longer than me!!
I painted my last XU-1 back in 1989 with acrylic and it looked perfect so i was hoping that technology has atleast improved with acrylic's.
Thanks again mate.
I painted my last XU-1 back in 1989 with acrylic and it looked perfect so i was hoping that technology has atleast improved with acrylic's.
Thanks again mate.
#5
_1QUICK LJ_
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Posted 12 April 2006 - 10:22 PM
the reason most panel shops dont like acrylic is because its very labour intensive its much easier for them if they can get it straight off the gun and out the door,acrylic will last 20-30 years no probs if looked after.
#6
MRLXSS
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Posted 13 April 2006 - 01:47 AM
Yeah acrylic will come up extremely well if done right, i am in the process in rubbing back my hq which i painted in Acrylic.. I used Protec Super Clear, it costs a little bit more but if cut back right will come up with a better shine than 2pac! So hopefully i get good results and can show u guys when its all ready!
#7
_jabba_
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Posted 13 April 2006 - 09:51 PM
have you updated the thread with some new pics of your HQ ??
#8
_MRNOS_
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Posted 14 April 2006 - 08:17 AM
If you use go quality acrylic itll last for a long time my mates monaro a few years back was in acrylic sprayed for 8years and it looked great for all those 8years, and that iso-free 2pak is CRAP
#9
_gtr161s_
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Posted 14 April 2006 - 02:38 PM
Gread advice from everyone.
Another question, is it possible to cut back acrylic (after it is painted) buff it to a gloss appearance then still spray clear over that?
If so im guessing the clear wont take to the surface after buffing so is there a product which removes the buffing compound to be able to spray clear.
Another question, is it possible to cut back acrylic (after it is painted) buff it to a gloss appearance then still spray clear over that?
If so im guessing the clear wont take to the surface after buffing so is there a product which removes the buffing compound to be able to spray clear.
#10
_Pete_
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Posted 14 April 2006 - 03:12 PM
Another question, is it possible to cut back acrylic (after it is painted) buff it to a gloss appearance then still spray clear over that?
If so im guessing the clear wont take to the surface after buffing so is there a product which removes the buffing compound to be able to spray clear.
Mate i think you might need to give us a definate idea on what your trying to acheive here, as it doesnt make much sense but i'll try and give an opinion anyway.
If you mean can you spray clear directly over a painted and finished (cut & polished) surface then No....you'll need to prepare the surface by sanding with the appropriate grit sandpaper and use the necessary cleaning products (prepsol etc) and then paint it like you would anything else.
Buffing compound is merely an abrasive paste which allows the machine polisher/hand with a foam pad or lambswool bonnet to polish the surface. Buffing compound isnt a gloss or a paint that is put over paint, if you have cut & polished something in the past you'll remember seeing the foam pad or lambswool mop having the colour of the car on it. This is because the cutting compound is actually removing the top layer very finely so it is uniform and shiny thus bringing out the gloss.
I'm not sure if I've actually answered you query, perhaps if you tell us about your painting project and then we can throw some more opinions/advice your way
#11
_gtr161s_
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Posted 14 April 2006 - 06:07 PM
To answer your question Pete, im doing a full bare metal respray on an lc gtr.
2pac is definitely not an option to do at home so im after tips on the best way to acheive a faultless paint job in acrylic.
Ive done 3 torana acrylic resprays going back 15yrs ago so i was hoping that there have been improvements with that paint.
The question about cutting back the paint just after it has cured came about from removing any traces of orange-peal but as you know when you cut back the surface it looses any of the shine off the gun, so if its possible to buff a shine back to it then seal it off with a clear in theory the light reflecting through the clear onto the colour surface would be brighter? Does that make any more sense.
Maybe my idea isnt possible because you wouldnt be able to fully remove the buff compound out of the pores to enable the clear to adhere.
2pac is definitely not an option to do at home so im after tips on the best way to acheive a faultless paint job in acrylic.
Ive done 3 torana acrylic resprays going back 15yrs ago so i was hoping that there have been improvements with that paint.
The question about cutting back the paint just after it has cured came about from removing any traces of orange-peal but as you know when you cut back the surface it looses any of the shine off the gun, so if its possible to buff a shine back to it then seal it off with a clear in theory the light reflecting through the clear onto the colour surface would be brighter? Does that make any more sense.
Maybe my idea isnt possible because you wouldnt be able to fully remove the buff compound out of the pores to enable the clear to adhere.
#12
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Posted 14 April 2006 - 06:28 PM
ok kool gtr161s now im up to speed,
I'm guessing your chasing a faultless clean flat smooth glossy finish for your GTR, to do it in acrylic means lots of sore arms.....you've got two so your right.
You idea of re-clearing the paint job is correct in obtaining no orange peel. There isnt any need to buff the finish between coats (this will only cause problems as you suspect) all you'll need to do is flatten the paint out with 1500grit between your clear coats.
I'm guessing your doing a metallic colour so here's the procedure i'd do it if it was me.
1. Paint the entire car BLACK
2. Rub the car down again with 1200-1500grit wet
3. Mask off the areas you want to keep black (sills,stripes etc)
4. Shoot your colour coats
5. Remove the masking and clean down with a tack rag and Clear the entire car with 4-5 or more nice wet coats
6. Rub down the Clear so its flat with 1500 grit wet
7. Re-clear the whole car again with 2-3 nice wet coats with 10% retarder thinners in the mix
8. You could repeat step 6 & 7 if you feel like it, wouldnt hurt
9. rub down entire car with 2000 or 2500 grit wet with some car wash in your water to flatten out any peel (this is called colour-sanding)
10. Buff the entire car with a good range of compounds from a quality product (meguires, farecla etc)
Acrylic lacquer requires a lot of effort to acheive a really nice finish but if your prepared to get stuck into it the end result can be a lovely thing to see.
There's something a little romantic about the beautiful lustre of a well prepared and finished Acrylic Lacquer job
I'm guessing your chasing a faultless clean flat smooth glossy finish for your GTR, to do it in acrylic means lots of sore arms.....you've got two so your right.
You idea of re-clearing the paint job is correct in obtaining no orange peel. There isnt any need to buff the finish between coats (this will only cause problems as you suspect) all you'll need to do is flatten the paint out with 1500grit between your clear coats.
I'm guessing your doing a metallic colour so here's the procedure i'd do it if it was me.
1. Paint the entire car BLACK
2. Rub the car down again with 1200-1500grit wet
3. Mask off the areas you want to keep black (sills,stripes etc)
4. Shoot your colour coats
5. Remove the masking and clean down with a tack rag and Clear the entire car with 4-5 or more nice wet coats
6. Rub down the Clear so its flat with 1500 grit wet
7. Re-clear the whole car again with 2-3 nice wet coats with 10% retarder thinners in the mix
8. You could repeat step 6 & 7 if you feel like it, wouldnt hurt
9. rub down entire car with 2000 or 2500 grit wet with some car wash in your water to flatten out any peel (this is called colour-sanding)
10. Buff the entire car with a good range of compounds from a quality product (meguires, farecla etc)
Acrylic lacquer requires a lot of effort to acheive a really nice finish but if your prepared to get stuck into it the end result can be a lovely thing to see.
There's something a little romantic about the beautiful lustre of a well prepared and finished Acrylic Lacquer job
#13
_gtr161s_
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Posted 14 April 2006 - 07:25 PM
Ask he shall recieve, blown away! Thats exactly the help im looking for and want to here.
No probs with elbow grease , the colour is not metallic its rally red so will that change any of the processes you set out.
No probs with elbow grease , the colour is not metallic its rally red so will that change any of the processes you set out.
#14
_Pete_
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Posted 14 April 2006 - 07:34 PM
As long as you keep a close eye on your edges between the black and the colour when your rubbing the paint down you'll be fine. I'd recommend buying a soft PVA rubbing block to do your rubbing down with near your edges, sometimes with the harder rubber blocks you can disturb your colour edge if your not careful.
The extra coats of clear will really give the red a nice deep glossy look! Good luck with it and always try and picture the end result even when your arms are burning and your fingers are bleeding!!
The extra coats of clear will really give the red a nice deep glossy look! Good luck with it and always try and picture the end result even when your arms are burning and your fingers are bleeding!!
#15
_1QUICK LJ_
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Posted 14 April 2006 - 09:56 PM
gtr161s i dont understand why you think the clear straight off the gun would be better than cutting and buffing,id say that if your acrylic is dull after cut&buffing then your doing it wrong or with the wrong products,alot of people blame the paint when most times its the user.check my mates car out here its ACRYLIC it was 2k primed blocked then 3 coats of acrylic primer blocked again then 6 coats of colour NO rubbing between coats then acrylic clear straight on then left 3 weeks this is important do not buff any earlier than 2 weeks after sprayed or it will dull.
then it was cut with 1500 wet & dry then buffed wit acrylic compound then 2k fine compound then hand polished with MEGUIRES wet look polish all done simple as that,if anyone needs to do more than that then they dont know how to paint acrylic
BY THE WAY WHEN THIS PIC WAS TAKEN A FEW MONTHS AGO THE PAINTJOB HAD JUST HIT 16 YEARS OLD ,YEP 16 YEARS OLD PAINT,and this car is raced and driven all the time.it looks as good in real life as in pic,so many people rave that acrylic is shit when they wouldnt have a clue it shits me .
then it was cut with 1500 wet & dry then buffed wit acrylic compound then 2k fine compound then hand polished with MEGUIRES wet look polish all done simple as that,if anyone needs to do more than that then they dont know how to paint acrylic
BY THE WAY WHEN THIS PIC WAS TAKEN A FEW MONTHS AGO THE PAINTJOB HAD JUST HIT 16 YEARS OLD ,YEP 16 YEARS OLD PAINT,and this car is raced and driven all the time.it looks as good in real life as in pic,so many people rave that acrylic is shit when they wouldnt have a clue it shits me .
Edited by 1QUICK LJ, 14 April 2006 - 10:03 PM.
#16
GML-31
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Posted 15 April 2006 - 05:53 AM
I have found a lot of times people blame the acrylic paint but really the problem is in the thinners they are trying to save money on... dont use cheap thinners pay an extra few bucks.
#17
_gtr161s_
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Posted 15 April 2006 - 03:28 PM
1quicklj - i guess my thought pattern is when you have finished applying all the coats of colour it will never look as glossy as when it is cut n buffed, so if you could cut n buff then lay on the clear over an already glossy surface in my mind it should be glossier.
This is where im probably wrong so by asking the q's someone can give me the right advice im missing.
I love nothing more than spraying my own cars but to get the knowledge of someone in that field is even better.
This is where im probably wrong so by asking the q's someone can give me the right advice im missing.
I love nothing more than spraying my own cars but to get the knowledge of someone in that field is even better.
#18
_jabba_
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Posted 15 April 2006 - 10:36 PM
I think you will find if you buff the paint then try and apply the clear it wont have anything to bite into and will peal off.
#19
_1QUICK LJ_
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Posted 16 April 2006 - 03:00 AM
if acrylic is buffed and polished properly it will look like glass no swirls or hazyness it should look crystal clear as good as any 2k finish if not better.acrylic is all about cutting and buffing properly it doesnt matter how wet you put the clear on it will always need to be cut & buffed to get its proper finish, the better you do it the brighter and cleaner and deeper the colour will be,
#20
_jabba_
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Posted 16 April 2006 - 06:19 AM
The reason im using 2pack insted of acrylic is the fact that its a low maintenance finish, no buffing or polishing to get a desent result. Also my car wont be parked in a garage so 2pack will last longer.
#21
_1QUICK LJ_
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Posted 17 April 2006 - 03:30 PM
ok fair enough 2k is a better choice for cars not under shelter i suggest you just use 2k products from start to finish.do not use single pack primers under 2k or it will suck a certain amount of shine out of a 2k finish no matter how long you let the primer cure.2k all the way and USE A BOOTH. if you have accsess to a spray booth then do your 2k base coats then then allow 30 mins then do a dust coat of clear wait 10 min then spray wet finish coats.then bake or let cure overnight then rub clear coat flat with 800 then flow coat with clear again mixed with 40%reducer and it will come out like glass if you are good at painting and know how to set the gun properly.this must be done in a booth or your waisting your time flow coating it. if not spraying in booth then exclude flow coating and cut with 1500 then buff with 2k fine compound but this must be done while the paints still soft no longer than 3 days after spraying.
#22
_NRV051_
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Posted 26 April 2006 - 07:06 AM
Man that was an interesting read. I am glad it was posted as I will be painting My EH wagon in acrylic and you guys just hammered home some important points for this style of painting. I have painted with acrylic before, but our LJ is 2k so I was unseure of going back to acrylic, but not anymore. Acrylic will be fine for me as the car will always be garaged and most likely it will be a limited use vehicle (club rego etc).
thanks
Gav
thanks
Gav
#23
_LoneOranger_
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Posted 30 April 2006 - 12:10 AM
Hi Guys,
I'm glad I've read this thread.
My son has just applied 5 coats of PPG deep black acrylic to a Mini he is doing up.
He is going to leave it now for about 8 weeks before cutting it with 1500 and buffing it.
Would he be better off applying a clear coat next weekend. Will this give him a better finish or more lustre once buffed?
He says even with clear coat he would still leave it for 8 weeks before cutting and buffing. To Harden?
Thanks for any input.
John.
I'm glad I've read this thread.
My son has just applied 5 coats of PPG deep black acrylic to a Mini he is doing up.
He is going to leave it now for about 8 weeks before cutting it with 1500 and buffing it.
Would he be better off applying a clear coat next weekend. Will this give him a better finish or more lustre once buffed?
He says even with clear coat he would still leave it for 8 weeks before cutting and buffing. To Harden?
Thanks for any input.
John.
#24
_1QUICK LJ_
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Posted 30 April 2006 - 02:13 AM
i like to use clear on all colours as its cheaper than colour so when you cut it back you dont loose any coats of colour,also it always seems deeper and clearer, if hes puts clear on put at least 4 coats on. rub the black with 600-800 lightly then apply the clear.
#25
_LoneOranger_
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Posted 30 April 2006 - 10:19 AM
Thanks 1QUICK LJ ,
That's good advice.
Is it OK to rub and apply the clear a week after painting the black?
And what should the clear/thinners ratio be?
I love this site.
I'm getting advice from Perth and I live in Sydney.
So many helpful people.
John.
That's good advice.
Is it OK to rub and apply the clear a week after painting the black?
And what should the clear/thinners ratio be?
I love this site.
I'm getting advice from Perth and I live in Sydney.
So many helpful people.
John.
Edited by LoneOranger, 30 April 2006 - 10:28 AM.
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