435 replies to this topic

[derrin71]

It is worth putting the body deadener on a bit thicker at the top of the guards to prevent damage if a stone is flicked up off the tyre.

I have seen the paintwork damaged on both steel and fibreglass guards.

Especially when you have to drive on the goat tracks around here that our state government and councils call roads.

[Tyre biter]

Maybe coat the stone guard/deadener stuff with GMH gloss black.
I did...rather Dave did after suggesting to me the gloss coats over make the stone guard'more durable.
I'm not knowledgable enough to advise on the need to do as Dave wanted, but thought that nevertheles it is something to consider.
It looks great Derrin - please keep the updates coming.
Cheers, TB

[derrin71]

Looks good Derrin! I'm also putting KBS on both inside and outside of the floor. How did the body deadener stick to the KBS?
Did you need to rub it back at all or just wipe over and spray?

Cheers John.

Just give the KBS a quick rub with some sandpaper, i used 180, to take the shine off it and help the deadener stick.

[derrin71]

Here's what i've been up to the last couple of days.
Took the car out of the rotisserie.
Prepped the door jambs, inside of the doors, engine bay, hatch jamb, underside of hatch, and inside of the guards and sprayed them in 2K high build primer.









I also stripped down the engine and took the bare block and heads to the machine shop.
The motor was in excellent condition really, i would have no hassles simply painting it and putting it in the car. It would have lasted me for years.
Although where's the fun in that Hey??

[Tyre biter]

Took the car out of the rotisserie.

You beauty!
Bloody well done - another milestone.
And hey, I must be blind because I only just realised that you have filled in the chassis rail holes in which the K-Frame bolts are inserted - very tidy.
Genuine question Derrin - how will you now affix the K-Frame - must be some groovy way you have in mind?
Cheers, TB

[derrin71]

Thanks TB,
The K-frame bolts are put in through holed drilled through the chasis rails in the wheel arch, I drilled them 50mm diameter.I will fit 50mm grommets to them when it is attached.
Finished wet rubbing all of the engine bay, under bonnet and hatch and door jambs etc yesterday.
My fingers were literally bleeding from the sandpaper.
Dad is comming around today to help me bolt the panels on ready to 2 pack prime the outside of the car when he gets back from holidays.
Unfortunately he is going away for 3-4 weeks so body work will be suspended until then. I don't want to do any more without him here.
I will still have plenty to keep me busy until he gets back.

Edited by derrin71, 22 January 2012 - 12:18 PM.

[ls2lxhatch]

I think that will have severely compromised the strength of the chassis rail. I would not let an engineer or inspector see it.

[Toranamat69]

I agree as well, that would have a significant impact on frontal impact capabilities and this is at a high load stess point due to subframe mounting points. It would be difficult to tell how without crash testing though. Bad time to find out that something has been compromised though.

When I hear of engineers passing this, yet pulling up other completely insignificant things, it make me reallise how weak the system is.

Certainly not something I would do to my car irrespective how good it looks.

[ls2lxhatch]

Maybe something like this would still give access without such an impact on the strength. The rear hole could be even smaller as the bush can be passed through the front hole. You could weld up the holes and try again.

This is a photoshop example of how I would do it. It would be interesting to see what dirtbag did.

Edited by ls2lxhatch, 22 January 2012 - 03:59 PM.

[Toranamat69]

He did the same as the pics in this thread - he posted a few pics of it in the epic thread.

[ls2lxhatch]

The front hole could be moved further forward to increase the amount of metal near the actual bush mount. The strength of the chassis rail forward of the bush mount is less important. The back edge of the hole could line up roughtly with the front bush bolt.

[derrin71]

The fact that i filled in the top holes with 18" plate and fully welded the pieces in means that i have only moved the access holes from one side of the chasis rail to another.
My car doesn't need to be engineered due to the modifications i am doing so i have no issues there.
The guy who is doing my modification plate is happy with what i have done.
All of the LH/LX toranas i have looked at that have smoothed and filled in chasis rails have been done like this.

[ls2lxhatch]

The holes filled in at the top of the chassis rail would increase the strength of the rail where horizontal forces are applied. Filling in the top holes result in a minimal increase in strength to vertical forces.

The main force applied to the chassis rail is vertical. The new holes in the side of the chassis rail severely reduce the vertical strength. The size of the holes that have been cut have effectively halved the strength of the chassis rail to vertical forces.

If you want to check this for yourself then buy a length of 1 - 2 mm 50 x 50 x 50 C channel. Apply weighs to a length of channel and see how much it can hold before it fails. Then cut one 50 mm hole in the side channel and repeat the test.

Edited by ls2lxhatch, 22 January 2012 - 06:00 PM.

[Toranamat69]

You don't have to convince us, you have to convince whom ever is signing off your car for rego and the forces of nature should anything untoward happen.

I do note however:

1. Any change that effects chassis strength or frontal impact does require engineering - if your engineer is happy to sign off, he takes liability for that - all well and good.
2. If your car doesn't need engineering, why do you need a mod plate?
3. Refer my initial comment about the approval system.
4. Just because others do something doesn't mean it is safe and/or correct.

It may be fine, I am just saying until someone verifies it is just heresay, I still don't like it though.

Matt

[benno81]

The whole point of the lip on the chassis rails is for strength like every car that has no chassis (mono something they r called)but they are designed to give strength while still being able to flex.
The whole thing with welding up these and other lips is taking away this strength and flex.
Everybody says the same thing but I put some really good welds down but how do you know?have you had your welds tested xrayed etc if you didnt get 100% peno your welds especially if ground will be use less not a good place to have a weld crack.
Then there is the stress when its welded everything when welded has been stressed the only way to fix this is to nomarlise with heat.Unless certain welding methods are done to normalise when welding.

Any way sorry to take over your thread I have seen this done alot and dont think its a great idea folds etc werent just done because holden thought it would look ugly but for reasons.

If I were you I would at least put say 3 mm plate over the holes and make them bolt on so you can take them on and off.And take a close look at your welds have a look in your holes in chassis if you can see what looks like another weld on the other side then you should have plenty of peno.

[Tyre biter]

Sorry Derrin,

I didn't mean to open a can of worms with all these unsolicited comments arising from your response to my question.
I haven't a clue as to strength being less or more with your mod - I could guestimate (like the rest) but that would be nothing more than an 'I reckon' (like the rest).

Those calling for engineering/structual checks to be made need to recognise the flip side to this stance - you no less know with certainty what the strength of the mods are either. Having said that, whilst these subsequent posts have been unsoliticited, they seem to be in good faith, seem to be an educated guess, and unfortunately whilst some have sniped/looked down their nose, others have gone so far as to suggest a remedy to issues they perceive to be in play - one can only welcome that sort of interest and input.

It's your car, your business, your degree of satisfaction and I'll leave it at that because I don't know for sure what is in play or not.

Again sorry, I never foresaw such dialouge being opened by what was a genuine question. Oh, and by the way - regardless of the engineering merits or not, it looks very clever and neat. That sort of thinking I am sure is right through your build will bring about a pretty special car for sure.

Cheers, TB

[Toranamat69]

Unsolicited comments in a public forum on the interweb thinggy - who wouldda thunk it??

I would say by virtue of the fact it is posted online, comments have been solicited.

At the risk of continuing a thread steel:

Unfortunately for us (or not maybe), the onus of proof is on the modifier to prove the mods are okay, not for the certifier to prove they are not.

Benno,
I agree with your comments on cutting the lip and seam welding the chassis rails in that it also changes the strength and frontal impact qualities of the front rails. If I was a certification engineer, I would not be concerned that people are chopping the lip off, I would be concerned the welding was done right, as my engineer was at the time.

From my view point, it is a lot easier to consider the effect of doing that as opposed to creating a stress point very close to a major load bearing point. My concern in not necessarily the outright strength to engine torque,but more the fatigue cracks that may result over time and the case of a big hit in front. It has been proven on others cars that the front end doesn't drop out the first run at the drags doing the side of chassis rail holes mod.

Holden used spot weld seams for manufacturing reasons, not because it is the best/strongest way to join 2 bits of metal together.

I merely stated an opinion, as always you can do what you wish with the advice. We all have opinions and 'reckon' we know what's best and safest. Lots of us are also drawing on a pretty solid experience and education base when we make comments like that and don't want to see bad stuff happen if it can be avoided.

What I do is listen to people, take note of what they have done/are doing and how that went for them and make my own call from there. I go against the grain plenty of times and get to say "told you so" to the naysayers when my stuff works. I also have had my share of failures over the years.

Since Derrins compliance guy is happy - no problem, my only further advice is for him to keep an eye on it, if it is going to be getting a flogging, fitting a monster engine or spending it's days travelling down rough dirt roads (doubtful).

Matt

[derrin71]

Bolted the panels on this morning. No more work on the body for a few weeks. Still have heaps to do. Main job is to rebuild the front end and the engine when it gets back from the machine shop.

[benno81]

that is one straight hatch back there mate I sometimes wish I had of kept the flares off my 4 door
as to my previous reply its your car you can do what you want with it
what wheels are you planning ?

[Tyre biter]

Sorry Toranamat69; comments like: "Certainly not something I would do to my car irrespective how good it looks" is a seemingly pious opinion regardless of the sentiment behind it will only be seen as the same when couched in such terms. Further, the initial question was posed by me - the response was made to me by the thread starter, and contrary to your opinion that because the question and response was posted on line it invited every man and his dog to respond - the question was not posted by the thread owner, not directed to anyone other than the thread starter and the response by the thread started was not made directly, by implication or otherwise to anyone other than the person who asked the darned question - no where is there an invitation from all and sundry to offer up their opinions and criticisms. Bit like folks turning up at birthday bashes because the event is mentioned on Facetube really.

Having said thtis, I do 'get' that forums of this ilk provide a tacit degree 'buy in' from the community into which it is posted - absolutely no issues there, but let's look to posts by ls2lxhatch, benno81 and more recently GunmetalLH as examples of folks having concerns but posting suggestions/remedies. It's easy to snipe - jeepers I am also guilty of it, possibly including this missive - but how about some 'buy in' rom yourself, ie; 'this is what I reckon an this is how you could overcome it or not' and opposed to out-and-out TJF? This is a great thread and lets both cease this my dog is blacker than your's bravado hey

Derrin, It looks good...make that great.
Another milestone getting the panels on it.
Keep us posted on what next - very interested in how you tackle the front end - for sure I will have a few 'doh' moments when I see how you did things. I wish I was a tad behind your build as opposed to in front all this time as your efforts would be a very good example. Having said that, I am sure I will indeed fall behind in the near future and so can thereby watch and learn.

Sorry to highjack your thread - I had a genuine question - you gave an honest response and in the fall-out we got a degree of elitism (I know better than you and enjoy telling you the same sentiment). Whilst I think all of those opinions were given with the very best of intentions, nevertheless it was naive of me not to have expected some of what followed - my bad and sorry. Again, whilst I haven't a clue let alone an educated opinion as to the engineering pro's or con's of your chassis rail mod - I reckon it looks great and is very clever.

Cheers, TB

[Toranamat69]

What are you sorry to me for? I state my options both negative and positive - people are free to ignore - infact there is a button for it. If I get too out of control, the mods can ban me. I use the ignore button now I know it is there and the forum is a much nicer place. There are plenty of things people have told me they don't like about my car - I am big enough and ugly enough to take it, I don't go running out and changing things. It's not like I lay claim to being some sort of Torana god, infact I see myself as a regular Torana enthusiast.

Derrin,

The hatch is looking sweet and that engine bay is looking great - I wish I had half the time to do stuff on my Torana - work just seems to get busier and busier these days.

You have fixed some tricky rust spots there - I keep a keen eye on this and a few of the other hatchback threads. Keep up the good work.

Matt