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Different banjo carriers for different ratios?

Started by Heath , Jul 18 2010 01:40 PM

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53 replies to this topic

#26 Heath

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 10:42 AM

There are still two disagreeing statements. I've gotta admit I'm fairly convinced that limo and gearex are correct as they have explained what they've found pretty clearly.

And incase anyone is unsure, this is a carrier, period. That isn't just a name I made up. It carries the planetary gearset around with its pin.
Posted Image

But .060" = ~1.5mm, couldn't you just adjust that out with the screw adjusters? They seem to have a fairly decent travel?

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#27 _gearex_

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 11:31 AM

- the centre or hemisphere (bit that the crownwheel is bolted to) is not different (Salisbury diffs they are)
[/quote]

There are #'s on the hemisphere, Part # 7421667 & #'s 7438144 suit 3.36,3.55 & 3.90 ratios. Part # 7435546 suit 2.78 & 3.08 ratios in banjo diffs. The limited slips have a ID ring moulded into the case on the crown-wheel side near the 6 x 13mm bolts on the 3.36, 3.55 3.90 hemispheres & are plain on the 2.78 ,3.08 type.

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#28 76lxhatch

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 03:05 PM

OK well I must admit I know nothing about part numbers. However, I am 100% certain that the same centre (carrier is the bit that the centre goes into :tease:

) will fit any gear ratio. I've done this many times, and I haven't noticed any difference in offset - if there is any, its minor and can easily be adjusted to suit.

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#29 _AD_75_

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 04:49 PM

OK well I must admit I know nothing about part numbers. However, I am 100% certain that the same centre (carrier is the bit that the centre goes into ) will fit any gear ratio. I've done this many times, and I haven't noticed any difference in offset - if there is any, its minor and can easily be adjusted to suit.

I agree, ive done the same without problems i never even bothered to adjust mine i just whacked em as is and removed em once blown up..my open wheelers always used to shear the pin and LSD's would usually snap the axles..we soon discovered replacing open wheelers was cheaper then axles..thank god for 9" diffs is all i can say

p.s there is too much fondling of the 3rd member in this thread. :tease:

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#30 S pack

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 08:14 PM

[quote name='Heath' date='22 July 2010 - 10:42 AM' timestamp='1279759333' post='525045']
There are still two disagreeing statements. I've gotta admit I'm fairly convinced that limo and gearex are correct as they have explained what they've found pretty clearly.

And incase anyone is unsure, this is a carrier, period. That isn't just a name I made up. It carries the planetary gearset around with its pin.
Posted Image

That is not the carrier. It is the CASE.

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#31 Heath

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 01:30 PM

Well after pulling some shit apart, here we are:
Posted Image

Limo and Gearex were spot on. Looks like about .060"-.070" difference

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#32 limo

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 12:08 AM

hey Heath you haven't got a 3.08 carrier to sell? I don't need the bits inside so no matter if they are damaged or gone

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#33 _gearex_

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 08:36 AM

Thanks heath for that. I'm glad that doing Diffs for 25 yrs i've learn't a thing or 2!! Also the way to pick the 2 limited slips apart (if you cant measure them) is the 3.36 type will have a ID ring moulded into the top of the carrier near the 6 bolts are & the 2.78 type is plain. Jay Posted Image

Edited by gearex, 24 July 2010 - 08:37 AM.

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#34 _HQ SS_

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 10:09 AM

I can see why this can get so confusing on the carrier/case side of things.
For years I have called the bit with the spider gears in it a carrier or hemisphere but as posted before, in all the Holden books I have it is called a case.
So the correct Holden name for it is a case.
So from here on in I will call it a case.
This is a problem I come across on a lot of parts because different manufactures have different names for the same item.
Now as already stated on the cases there is different banjo case for 2.78 and 3.08 compared to the case for the 3.36 3.55 qnd 3.90 ratios.
Just to confuse the issue a little bit the Salisbury cases are 2.60 and 2.78 run the same one and 3.08 3.36 3.55 and 4.44 use the same case.

The reason for the different cases can be seen here

Posted Image

The sheer size of the 2.78 and 3.08 pinions necessitates the different cases but as stated above this can be overcome by spacing the 3.36 etc crown wheel over on the case.
Now from memory the carriers are also different as well.
Apart from the 2.78 and 3.08 carriers having the long two bottom bolts they are also different to allow for the sheer size of the 2.78/3.08 pinions.
Also from memory a 2.78/3.08 pinion will not fit in to a 3.36 etc carrier.
But a 3.36 etc pinion will fit in to a 2.78/3.08 carrier.
I will think on this all as I keep getting a flash of memory that makes me think that some of these things can be miss matched and it will all work one way but not the other way if that makes sense.
Cheers Paul.

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#35 Heath

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 11:05 AM

I will think on this all as I keep getting a flash of memory that makes me think that some of these things can be miss matched and it will all work one way but not the other way if that makes sense.

Absolutely

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#36 76lxhatch

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 11:35 AM

Ah well there's no arguing with that is there. Perhaps the different offset was necessary for the small Salisbury housing where the carrier bearings were shimmed.

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#37 Heath

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 02:43 PM

That is one of the things that went through my mind.

limo, PM sent.

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#38 _HQ SS_

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 07:25 PM

Now I look at it I think the picture I posted above is of large salisbury gears not banjo.
To correct the image above here are 4 of the banjo pinions as a comparison to each other.

Posted Image

I also took a couple of pictures to show the things that come in to play when changing crown wheels and pinions and cases around.
I will just post links to them so as to not load the thread up any more but if you have a look at this picture.
http://gallery.oldholden.com/HQ_SS/Tech/Diffs/Banjo+crown+wheels+0001f.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1
It shows the difference in the depth of the teeth on the crown wheels with the difference between the 2.78 and the 3.55 being the most noticeable.
This was one of the reasons I asked about crown wheel and pinion failures on the other thread.
As you can see the 3.55 crown wheel has a lot more meat on it, (Sorry for the highly technical term there.)
So because of it having more meat on it and it having less initial loads being on it compared to say a 2.78 gear set.
I would expect it to be less prone to failure.
Now on to the alignment side of things again, in this picture it will give you a real rough idea of one of the other alignment variables.
http://gallery.oldholden.com/HQ_SS/Tech/Diffs/Banjo+crown+wheels+0002f.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1
The 3.08 crown wheel is actually the physically widest of the gear sets with the 2.78 being the smallest.
Cheers Paul.

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#39 Heath

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 02:41 PM

I hear ya, but having the extra meat in that crown wheel might be completely offset by the increased mechanical advantage that the shorter (3.55:1) ratio gearset has... i.e. torque multiplication is increased so there is more stress on the crown-wheel with the same input torque on the yoke.

The other thing you've gotta ask yourself is how do they fail? If they just damage the teeth along and the teeth on the 3.55 gearset are no bigger...

Edited by Heath, 25 July 2010 - 02:42 PM.

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#40 _HQ SS_

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 12:27 AM

This is probably more related to the other post but I am not sure about the actual tooth contact areas on various ratios
but I would expect that this could come in to play as well.
But the bottom line is if you get a well forged/cast and prepared part I would expect it to out live a part with bad forging/casting and bad tolerances.
The problem is with out going in to x raying etc which one is the best part to use.
Its a luck of the draw thing and I think that is why you here such a wide account of these little diffs.
Some real good and some real bad ones. More are to the bad side of things unfortunately but are the odd good ones the real well made and assembled ones.
Are they the ones with just the right specs and tolerances.

But from the lack of heaps of reply's so far on the crown wheel and pinion failure side of things that part of them may not be all that bad.
So is there a future possible market for a billet case and internals and billet axles for a banjo.
I must now ask the question as anyone ever heard of someone getting after market axles made for the banjo's.
Cheers Paul.

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#41 TerrA LX

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 08:19 AM

OMG don't know how many time so many people have tried to tell you guys, you are not the first and will not be the last, you are wasting your time and money, they are just too small.
I myself done all the investigations 20yr ago when I was blowing them up in my hatch, even went to founder a full spool, but then the caps snap like sun dried rubber bands, again the diff is too small to get anything decent in there...
FYI tyres were 225/50 13. Box was trimatic.
20yrs before me the XU-1 and L34 guys would have had the same problems, besides the locker and fine splines I doubt there was much improvements from there as they would have been selling like hot cakes 20yr ago.
Anyway good luck with it and if you succeed in keeping a hemisphere in one piece in place I will be very interested.

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#42 Heath

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 05:15 PM

I must now ask the question as anyone ever heard of someone getting after market axles made for the banjo's.

Yes, absolutely has been done

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#43 _HQ SS_

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 08:52 PM

TerrA LX.
It was the mid eighties through to the mid ninety's that I was really deep in to cars and parts (well more so than now) and
it has been many years since I have blown up a banjo diff.
Some of my old cars and parts etc etc etc can be seen here.
http://gallery.oldholden.com/HQ_SS/
if you are interested.
So with it being so long since I was doing this sort of thing and because I also still have a HR sdn with a banjo diff in it.
For which I have looked at centura/volvo and the commodore diffs etc but I do not really want to change to another type of diff if possible.
So because of this I was interested to see if the old banjo had been given a new lease on life with new technology or not.
From your comments I gather not but by Heaths comment at least the axle problem can be solved when/if I run out of HR axles.
Cheers Paul.

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#44 Heath

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 11:10 AM

Some nice cars in those folders mate, love the HQ showcar! hahahah ohh how times have changed.

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#45 _Yella SLuR_

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 07:42 PM

I don't care. I now have a 2.78 LSD and I'm king of the castle (beer does everything for your self-esteem, if only temporarily).

^ I supplied the 2.78 ring and pinion gears.

Edited by Yella SLuR, 06 September 2010 - 07:43 PM.

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#46 N/A-PWR

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 01:43 PM

I don't care. I now have a 2.78 LSD and I'm king of the castle (beer does everything for your self-esteem, if only temporarily).

^ I supplied the 2.78 ring and pinion gears.

I too am a Fan of the 2.78 LSD with a M22 6 cylinder Aussie 4 speed. Dave I

Edited by TORYPOWER, 13 August 2013 - 01:54 PM.

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#47 _Sir LC_

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 09:45 PM

See if I've got this correct....if i want to change my final drive ratio from a 3.08 to a 3.36 I can use the same 'differential casing' (where the pinion is secured) for the 3.36 pinion gear?

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#48 N/A-PWR

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 10:08 PM

Yep Clark,

You can go down from 2.78/3.08 to the other ratios,

because the Housing has the 2 larger bolts in it to clear the larger pinions.

if i want to change my final drive ratio from a 3.08 to a 3.36 I can use the same 'differential casing' (where the pinion is secured) for the 3.36 pinion gear?