72 replies to this topic

[76lxhatch]

OK I've run all combinations of fine/coarse and open/LSD centres and I don't quite follow what you are saying about LSD vs open centres? In my experience the LSD centre is definitely no better than an open centre (which is actually more forgiving at any one point in time because it will drop all that damaging torque out through one tyre quicker). The LSD centre is not really prone to breaking any more than any other part of the assembly, but the cones and internal surfaces do wear out very quickly.

Fine or coarse spline is neither here nor there with regard to the centres which are absolutely identical other than the spline. Fine spline axles are definitely a big improvement in general though and a must-do improvement for anyone giving a Banjo a hard time.

[Heath]

It seems that most failures that don't have shock loading (which is to do with driving style not diff design obviously) have to do with singling out and exercising the planetary/spider/pinion gears in the carrier, and their pin which really doesn't fit tightly enough. So I think the LSD might seem stronger in that it doesn't use the gearset in the centre as much and avoids that area

Anyway, this thread has gone from shit to good. Some interesting things mentioned

And Brett, Peter told me about that a while ago, I think he said some of the race teams did it? I don't mind the idea of it, I'm just not sure the material a Banjo axle is made out of really wants to bend a lot? lol

[Heath]

Just stumbled across this old thread. Has some interesting things that Greg mentions etc
http://www.gmh-toran...topic=4520&st=0

Why are people suggesting the Gemini axles? What is the advantage of those? If they are the same spline count and need to have the stud pattern changed...

Cheers

[76lxhatch]

I think they mean the Gems are a good source for fine spline axles of suitable length to fit an LC/LJ (fine spline not so common as LH/LX/UC)

[Heath]

Thanks, didn't even think of that.

[rodomo]

Next time you're bored, ponder these?

Mid 70's, locally built, Toyota Crowns ran Holden Banjo diff centres.
Which spline axle? How long? Who made them? Better material?
But Ford stud pattern.

Volvo axles? How long? Which spline? Better material? Torana pattern.

[greens nice]

Next time you're bored, ponder these?

Mid 70's, locally built, Toyota Crowns ran Holden Banjo diff centres.
Which spline axle? How long? Who made them? Better material?
But Ford stud pattern.

Volvo axles? How long? Which spline? Better material? Torana pattern.

volvo is 27 spline, yes better material probably but there is no way you will get them in. they are the size of a 35 spline 9 in axle but taper down at the end.

[rodomo]

volvo is 27 spline, yes better material probably but there is no way you will get them in. they are the size of a 35 spline 9 in axle but taper down at the end.

Yes but could they be cut down and re-splined?

[TerrA LX]

30yr ago the XU-1 and L34 guys would have had the same problems, besides the locker and fine splines I doubt there was much improvements from there as they would have been selling like hot cakes 20yr ago.
Anyway good luck with it and if you succeed in keeping a hemisphere in one piece in place I will be very interested.

[wot179]

I have a Volvo diff here if some one wants to try something clever.

1400 long,bottom trailing arm brackets are in the same place at the same centers ,disc brakes and Torana stud pattern.

Strong as buggery.

Can anyone join the dots?

[MRLXSS]

I remember speaking to one of the L34 racers a while back, and apparently they would polish parts of the diff and remove the casting marks etc (As these are the weakest points in the diff)

So by smoothing it all it helped with surface tension or something... It made sense when he explained it too me, but sounds like a Shite-load of work!

[greens nice]

I have a Volvo diff here if some one wants to try something clever.

1400 long,bottom trailing arm brackets are in the same place at the same centers ,disc brakes and Torana stud pattern.

Strong as buggery.

Can anyone join the dots?

they are a very good thing yes, which one have you got, has it got fins undearneath or no fins? the one with no fins is the stronger of the two with a crownwheel near the same size as a borgwarner. the one with fins has a crown wheel slightly bigger than a banjo, but nonetheless alot stronger ! i couldnt even kill my volvo diff doing 3rd gear single legger burnouts.

[Heath]

No diff is designed to do single wheel burnouts. That is not their purpose, whether it is LSD, fully open, viscous or whatever, it is not designed to sit there and do a single wheel burnout, the fact that it breaks when it is doing that means very little. If you break it when you're power-shifting it and shit, then that is a proper failure, because it should be able to handle that!

Matt, stress concentrates occur in surface imperfections. That's why conrods get shot-peened.

The biggest part of an axle should be its spline - no point in having part of the shaft bigger in diameter than the spline, because that's not the weakest link. Are you saying the Volvo axles are bigger in section in the shaft part than they are in the spline part?

[greens nice]

No diff is designed to do single wheel burnouts. That is not their purpose, whether it is LSD, fully open, viscous or whatever, it is not designed to sit there and do a single wheel burnout, the fact that it breaks when it is doing that means very little. If you break it when you're power-shifting it and shit, then that is a proper failure, because it should be able to handle that!

Matt, stress concentrates occur in surface imperfections. That's why conrods get shot-peened.

The biggest part of an axle should be its spline - no point in having part of the shaft bigger in diameter than the spline, because that's not the weakest link. Are you saying the Volvo axles are bigger in section in the shaft part than they are in the spline part?

yes exactly that.

and i know they arent designed to that, im just saying that i tried to break it before i put the 9 inch in and i couldnt.

[wot179]

As an example of a Volvo diffs strength.I knew of one in a full street trim volvo about 1600kgs from memory, with a sbc,turbo 400 and a 4500 convertor running 11.50s on slicks.

A ballpark 500hp.

It did eventually break,but it had copped a merciless thrashing and was abused no end.

Cost a hundred bucks to replace.




HQSS It still has the volvo discs.I will try a rim and see.

Green,what do you mean by fins?It came out of an 84 4 cyl station wagon.

And to clarify an earlier statement,the lower control arms appear to be the same as LH as I had them both sitting

side by side and pointed a tape measure at them.

The Volvo was about 20mm narrower each side overall.

This would mean only top mounts would have to be added to make it fit,plus handbrake cable and tailshaft.

I find it difficult to believe nobody has attempted this conversion.


It would be way more cost effective than all this cutting and shutting of Borgwarners that seems to be the latest

obsession(I have nothing against borgys by the way) which is still the same expense as a similar 9 inch

conversion.(most of you know my feelings on these....)


As a simple and cheap budget conversion with bulk strength and disc brakes they would be hard to

beat,especially with the pissweak horsepower many on here use as an excuse for a diff conversion.



Heath,stick with your banjos.You will never have a problem as I doubt any will ever see better than 120hp.











Here endeth the rant.

[TerrA LX]

It would be way more cost effective than all this cutting and shutting of Borgwarners that seems to be the latest obsession...

Firstly, there is no need to cut and shut if you use the correct B/W housing.
Also I can see a problem with shock mounts and rim selection being 20mm narrower but if you are that convinced I will come have a look.

[greens nice]

the fins are just like you would see on an old school red motor or grey motor tappet cover, they are where the drain bung is on the Smaller volvo diff.
the 144 volvos have the stronger diffs, but these diffs came out in heaps of cars even ambulances and theres ratios up to 5.1 but no shorter than 3.36.
just be careful though as the discs are near same diametre of a standard torana front, brake bias is all out of wack.

[Heath]

^ *no taller than 3.36, but that's not a problem for a performance car.

But I do think a different thread should be started about Volvo diffs, can we keep this on topic?

[TerrA LX]

So the Volvo axles are no good?
Wonder if anything else off the Volvo diff will fit the bango?
If a Volvo diff turns out to be a direct replacement would you replace your third member with a Volvo?
3.36 would probably be the max I would go in a performance car, race car would be another story.

Another problem with the bango design would be gaskets, wouldn't gasket thickness play a big part in axle alignment, putting stress on the sun gears and pinion pin?

[76lxhatch]

I wouldn't think minor variations in gasket thickness would be overly important over the length of an axle, but you wouldn't want to use thick cork or anything silly. I can imagine that almost any housing is going to need straightening before use as they are so flimsy, this is probably a very important step in building a Banjo to take some abuse. Assuming you made or bought a better centre and bigger/better axles, then the housing would have to be seriously reinforced somehow to reduce flex, also I wonder if it would be possible to use slightly bigger studs? The bearing caps would be next on the list, although its possible that they would live a bit longer with a more rigid housing...?

[TerrA LX]

If you kept power down to about 100hp then that would not be a problem.