Hi all
Noticed that there was cracks in my HQ rotors which radiate outwards from the studs. I assume previous owner had commo rims bolted to HQ pattern or was running some pretty fat wheel spacers as long wheel studs were fitted.
Anyway now that i have to replace those bits, i might as well upgrade. first thing i looked at was some vy brakes that i had lying around (free), obviously not a direct fitment and thus required a conversion hub to use newer style discs. These callipers are far from compact and I also read that they flex a fair bit also.
I then looked at the hoppers kit which uses AU3 2 pot cllipers. These seem like an easy fitment but why bother doing half an upgrade at that price?
I then started looking at 4pot options. I had a pretty good read through alot of the brake forum and the general trend that i got was that:
- Don't even bother with cheap chinese callipers, must meet ADR
- Cheap wilwoods are useless
- Volvo 4 pot callipers are for nanna's not for modified street cars
- Those who brought Harrop brakes were not happy with them and had trouble with components not fitting together.
This basically left two options:
1) Nissan 4 pot = cheap
2) AP racing callipers = ultimate setup? could not find a bad word said about them. I also spoke to the guy who races the black tori coupe in the historic touring cars and he had nothing but praise for them, I think his name was Tallbot from memory.
I trial fitted a set of 235/50/17 on the fron of my LC coupe and the rims only slightly rubbed on full lock on the upper control arm at the front. I measured the angle on full lock but can't remember it off the top of my head. I had planned to check this against the standard setup on my LJ, however if anyone knows this then post away. If my turning circle wasn't affected too much, then i will run 17" rims, if not then i will have to drop back to 15". Therefore 90% sure i will be going 330mm rotors to match.
Car is a LC coupe, 350 chev, T400, 9in, mini tubbed to the rails. main use is a street car, with some track and strip work thrown in for fun. I obviously want to sort out the brakes before i buy new rims.
I don't mind spending a couple of grand on the brakes because i will never sell the car.
Feel free to chuck your 2 cents in about any of the above, but my main question is are the AP racing callipers that much better for the price and will i even notice the difference for my application?
AP Racing Vs Nissan 4pot callipers
Started by
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, Jul 25 2010 03:10 AM
93 replies to this topic
#2
antelopeslr5000
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Posted 25 July 2010 - 10:46 AM
What brakes do you plan to run on the rear?
#3
_coupe202_
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Posted 25 July 2010 - 01:09 PM
I've done a brake upgrade on on Nissan gtr from the factory 4 spots on the front and 2 spots on the rear, I've changed they fronts 4 spot and rears 2 spot brembos, and there's a huge difference in the way pulls up, I found that the standard brakes after 4 hard braking the peddle would be soft.
I would rate the AP racing and Brembos brakes the same.
I would rate the AP racing and Brembos brakes the same.
#4
_doucmyuc_
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Posted 25 July 2010 - 04:36 PM
Stick with the nissan 4 pots.
There are a few different versions
GTR 32
GTR V Spec R32
Z32 Cast Iron
Z32 Alloy.
R33/R34 GTR.
Get the R32 GTR or Z32 Alloy ones. They will be more than enough to put you through the window!
There are a few different versions
GTR 32
GTR V Spec R32
Z32 Cast Iron
Z32 Alloy.
R33/R34 GTR.
Get the R32 GTR or Z32 Alloy ones. They will be more than enough to put you through the window!
#5
dattoman
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Posted 25 July 2010 - 09:20 PM
Depends what your using it for
I'll be using AP's when the time comes
There are of course many varied versions of them too
I use CP5200 ... good all purpose street and light comp calipers
As for Nissan calipers... theres a few
R32 Skyline alloy sumitomo (280mm disc)
Z32 exactly same as above
Z32 skinny alloy ... suits 26mm thick 280mm diam disc
Z14/15 Cast iron simitomo (280mm disc)
R32 GTR sumitomo alloy (296mm disc)
R33 Skyline sumitomo (296mm disc... but different disc and caliper to R32 GTR)
R34 skyline sumitomo (310mm disc)
R32 Brembo suits 324mm disc
R33 Brembo same as above
R34/35 GTR Brembo... cheap mas produced version not as good as earlier one
I'll be using AP's when the time comes
There are of course many varied versions of them too
I use CP5200 ... good all purpose street and light comp calipers
As for Nissan calipers... theres a few
R32 Skyline alloy sumitomo (280mm disc)
Z32 exactly same as above
Z32 skinny alloy ... suits 26mm thick 280mm diam disc
Z14/15 Cast iron simitomo (280mm disc)
R32 GTR sumitomo alloy (296mm disc)
R33 Skyline sumitomo (296mm disc... but different disc and caliper to R32 GTR)
R34 skyline sumitomo (310mm disc)
R32 Brembo suits 324mm disc
R33 Brembo same as above
R34/35 GTR Brembo... cheap mas produced version not as good as earlier one
#7
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Posted 26 July 2010 - 03:46 AM
What brakes do you plan to run on the rear?
Antelope, I had planned to replace the rears to match the new fronts so that the hydraulic piston area ratio was kept, so the back anchors did't lock first ie. a matched pair if that makes sence
The rear discs came with the diff, I took the number stamped on the side into repco and independant but they couldn't tell me what they were off. I suspect they are bombodore ones, can anyone confirm? Callipers are marked as PBR with K241-06SC1 and K332-091C1 cast into the body.
While we are on part numbers i have a couple of brake boosters that I want to run remotely Marked PBR 260550. Can anyone tell me what they were originally installed in and what size they are?
I've done a brake upgrade on on Nissan gtr from the factory 4 spots on the front and 2 spots on the rear, I've changed they fronts 4 spot and rears 2 spot brembos, and there's a huge difference in the way pulls up, I found that the standard brakes after 4 hard braking the peddle would be soft.
I would rate the AP racing and Brembos brakes the same.
Hi Coupe202 just to clarify, you tested the standard Nissan GTR brakes still installed on a nissan gtr, then upgraded to Brembos???? Were the original rotors slotted and did you upgrade to bigger rotors also? If so what would you rate both setups out of 10 and did you have any clearance issues? If you have some part numbers or pics can you please post them up?
Dattoman is there a bombodore pbr vented/ slotted rotor that would bolt straight onto the standard torana stubs that would match the CP5200 callipers and what would the rotor thickness be? Also what p/n would you recomend for the back callipers and also rotor to match.
#8
LJ RB30
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Posted 26 July 2010 - 11:50 AM
Hi LS1 LJ
I currently have VL calipers front & rear on my LJ, VN V6 slotted/ cross drilled disc's on the front , stock commo on rear, stock LJ master/booster. This worked really good on the road/strip with EBC greenstuff pads on the front & unknown on the rear (too long ago!!) It was only when i went to a tuning day at Wanneroo that i realised the brake bias wasn't good under circuit conditions. I have 296mm VT front brakes & hub adaptors to fit but as you said i too have read that the VT calipers can flex so i'm now fitting R33 4 spots. I adapted the VT master cylinder to the LJ booster as fitting the VT booster requires it to be offset to clear my intake, don't know how well it will work as the VT booster has a higher ratio but will try it before i fit the VT booster. Pads will be QFM A1RM all round. Can't wait to see how it goes or should that be STOPS!!!
Your rears look like commo but not 100%. I am leaving the VL rear calipers (38mm) on with the 4 spots, VT's are 40.5mm.
What handbrake set up are you using? Can't see it in the pic's
I currently have VL calipers front & rear on my LJ, VN V6 slotted/ cross drilled disc's on the front , stock commo on rear, stock LJ master/booster. This worked really good on the road/strip with EBC greenstuff pads on the front & unknown on the rear (too long ago!!) It was only when i went to a tuning day at Wanneroo that i realised the brake bias wasn't good under circuit conditions. I have 296mm VT front brakes & hub adaptors to fit but as you said i too have read that the VT calipers can flex so i'm now fitting R33 4 spots. I adapted the VT master cylinder to the LJ booster as fitting the VT booster requires it to be offset to clear my intake, don't know how well it will work as the VT booster has a higher ratio but will try it before i fit the VT booster. Pads will be QFM A1RM all round. Can't wait to see how it goes or should that be STOPS!!!
Your rears look like commo but not 100%. I am leaving the VL rear calipers (38mm) on with the 4 spots, VT's are 40.5mm.
What handbrake set up are you using? Can't see it in the pic's
#9
antelopeslr5000
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Posted 26 July 2010 - 07:42 PM
This is my setup which I will be fitting in the near future.
Not a cheap upgrade but have a look at the thousands of dollars people will spend on engine mods without thought... but yet when it comes to the braking performance brakes are one of the most overlooked items fitted to street modified cars (in my opinion anyway!)
Not a cheap upgrade but have a look at the thousands of dollars people will spend on engine mods without thought... but yet when it comes to the braking performance brakes are one of the most overlooked items fitted to street modified cars (in my opinion anyway!)
#10
dattoman
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Posted 26 July 2010 - 10:11 PM
The rear discs came with the diff, I took the number stamped on the side into repco and independant but they couldn't tell me what they were off. I suspect they are bombodore ones, can anyone confirm? Callipers are marked as PBR with K241-06SC1 and K332-091C1 cast into the body.
Commodore rear
While we are on part numbers i have a couple of brake boosters that I want to run remotely Marked PBR 260550. Can anyone tell me what they were originally installed in and what size they are?
They are PBR Hydropwers... that number is a casting number only and they could be anything depending on their internal bore size and the size of the diaphragm
Refer this chart
Dattoman is there a bombodore pbr vented/ slotted rotor that would bolt straight onto the standard torana stubs that would match the CP5200 callipers and what would the rotor thickness be? Also what p/n would you recomend for the back callipers and also rotor to match.
If it was that easy... everyone would do it
However you can use various Commodore rotors depending on what size disc you want... 300 or 330mm are the most common... 28mm thick
As for rears... take a look at antelopes pics... they are almost identical to what would use
What he's got there appear to be DBA5046 (28mm) or maybe 5048 (32mm) rotors for front and CP5700 style 6 piston calipers calipers with a fabricated hub to mount the disc to the stub
The rears are VT HSV 315mm vented rears with a custom backing plate for handbrake
Looks like it might be a CP5147 series caliper
I'm guessing numbers here but I'm sure antelope will correct me
#11
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Posted 27 July 2010 - 07:25 PM
i dont think there really is much of a comparison, if you want stopping power AP`s are the way to go.
if your only using the car for street driving and the drag strip, the twin piston setup would be more than capable.
a problem that can also occur is, your brakes are only as good as the tyres you use. less grip less braking power.
if your only using the car for street driving and the drag strip, the twin piston setup would be more than capable.
a problem that can also occur is, your brakes are only as good as the tyres you use. less grip less braking power.
#12
antelopeslr5000
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Posted 29 July 2010 - 06:17 AM
If it was that easy... everyone would do it
However you can use various Commodore rotors depending on what size disc you want... 300 or 330mm are the most common... 28mm thick
As for rears... take a look at antelopes pics... they are almost identical to what would use
What he's got there appear to be DBA5046 (28mm) or maybe 5048 (32mm) rotors for front and CP5700 style 6 piston calipers calipers with a fabricated hub to mount the disc to the stub
The rears are VT HSV 315mm vented rears with a custom backing plate for handbrake
Looks like it might be a CP5147 series caliper
I'm guessing numbers here but I'm sure antelope will correct me
Pretty close Datto!
Front discs are DBA5046B, 330mm x 28mm. (I purchased the discs from you Neil!)
Front calipers are CP5570.
Rear discs are HSV DBA4049, 315mm x 18mm.
Rear calipers are CP7607
Backing plate is a custom Banksia park brake setup (as used in VT Commodore). It accepts the Torana park brake cable with no mods, direct fitment.
Stub axles are 2" drop stub with VT hub adaptors to accept the front discs. Stub axles also have been drilled to accept Commodore caliper mounting.
#13
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Posted 29 October 2010 - 04:50 AM
Ok been missing in action due to working away from home, so reviving an ancient thread. I have decided to go for 300mm brakes instead of 330's. Reason for this is that I want to run 15" welds for the strip and will purchase a set of 17's later for street duties.
Originally when I was going 330 dia I was going to go with AP racing 5200- 808 and 809 callipers for the front with the DBA 019 (327mm disc 28mm thick) or the DBA 4019SL, same spec as previous but in the 4000 series slotted
So now I’m thinking of using DBA5040BLKSL (296mm dia. 28mm thick) 5000 series with the aluminium hat, slotted. However I want to be able to run chev (HQ) or commodore stud pattern and I don’t think it would be safe to redrill the alloy hat with a second lot of stud holes. Do you guys also think this is a bad idea? If so, then I willl go with the DBA4040BSL with the steel hat.
I still want to use AP 4 spots and fit 15in rims, but reading the specs for the 5200 series callipers for the front it states they are for Suits Ø330 max / Ø304 min x 28 or 32mm thick discs. But on the technical drawing it states that for all 28mm thick discs require a 330mm disc. ????
Or would I have to get 300 x28 Honda or BMW ones with custom brackets, would I still fit a 15” rim and what series of callipers should I look at????? Had a look on the website but there seems to be endless possibilities.
Any help is appreciated.
Originally when I was going 330 dia I was going to go with AP racing 5200- 808 and 809 callipers for the front with the DBA 019 (327mm disc 28mm thick) or the DBA 4019SL, same spec as previous but in the 4000 series slotted
So now I’m thinking of using DBA5040BLKSL (296mm dia. 28mm thick) 5000 series with the aluminium hat, slotted. However I want to be able to run chev (HQ) or commodore stud pattern and I don’t think it would be safe to redrill the alloy hat with a second lot of stud holes. Do you guys also think this is a bad idea? If so, then I willl go with the DBA4040BSL with the steel hat.
I still want to use AP 4 spots and fit 15in rims, but reading the specs for the 5200 series callipers for the front it states they are for Suits Ø330 max / Ø304 min x 28 or 32mm thick discs. But on the technical drawing it states that for all 28mm thick discs require a 330mm disc. ????
Or would I have to get 300 x28 Honda or BMW ones with custom brackets, would I still fit a 15” rim and what series of callipers should I look at????? Had a look on the website but there seems to be endless possibilities.
Any help is appreciated.
#14
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Posted 29 October 2010 - 06:48 AM
heres my 2 bob worth and no offence intended at all just from my experiences over the last few years racing my monaro and my 2 toranas.at oran park,the creek wakefield and bathurst.why spend all that money. as soon as someone can show me what real benefit there is to be gained from moving away from the holden stuff and using this newer stuff (which im in no way saying is not superior in performance) is warranted for the application.you say mainly a tough street car with some fun thrown in but seriously the hq stuff for what you want to do works fine.the fact they are still there after 30 odd years says enough.the speeds you will be doing, the amount of times you will be doing it,you wont be constantly braking from 300k i just cant see the need for the expense, a properly setup holden system with those hq callipers will work just fine for nearly all cars the people on these forums run and the events that they will be entered in.and i have seen brand new rotors crack.i just recently went to go down this road with my marlboro replica but after weighing it all up.costing it, looking at the intended use and it will get a workout i am going fronts-commodore stud hq slotted only not crossdrilled hq callipers,and rear- vn rotors and callipers .
by the way how much do you want for your front callipers ill buy them off you.
by the way how much do you want for your front callipers ill buy them off you.
Edited by rob350hatch, 29 October 2010 - 06:50 AM.
#15
dattoman
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Posted 29 October 2010 - 09:50 AM
5200-808/9 are to suit 28mm discs
I have used them on 4040's before
Not 5040 but they should work the same... theres no mount bolts for the bell in the way anyway
The disc could be used as is without having to add a pattern... HQ and Comm are so close that it will not matter in this application
The stud pattern on the hub is the important part here... the disc won't move once wheel bolted on
I have used them on 4040's before
Not 5040 but they should work the same... theres no mount bolts for the bell in the way anyway
The disc could be used as is without having to add a pattern... HQ and Comm are so close that it will not matter in this application
The stud pattern on the hub is the important part here... the disc won't move once wheel bolted on
#16
FastEHHolden
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Posted 29 October 2010 - 02:07 PM
I know its not quite in the league of performance of the cars you guys drive....but I'm investigating using Landrover 110 front calipers (AP 4 spots) on stock LX discs. Advantages are same hydraulic pipe thread, and they are designed for a solid disc. They do an average job on stopping a 2.5 tonne landy...but might work nicely on 1300 kg Torry.
Also looking at their brake booster....uses same body of the master cylinder as a9x and XE-XF falcons
Also looking at their brake booster....uses same body of the master cylinder as a9x and XE-XF falcons
#17
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Posted 30 October 2010 - 02:27 AM
heres my 2 bob worth and no offence intended at all just from my experiences over the last few years racing my monaro and my 2 toranas.at oran park,the creek wakefield and bathurst.why spend all that money. as soon as someone can show me what real benefit there is to be gained from moving away from the holden stuff and using this newer stuff (which im in no way saying is not superior in performance) is warranted for the application.you say mainly a tough street car with some fun thrown in but seriously the hq stuff for what you want to do works fine.the fact they are still there after 30 odd years says enough.the speeds you will be doing, the amount of times you will be doing it,you wont be constantly braking from 300k i just cant see the need for the expense, a properly setup holden system with those hq callipers will work just fine for nearly all cars the people on these forums run and the events that they will be entered in.and i have seen brand new rotors crack.i just recently went to go down this road with my marlboro replica but after weighing it all up.costing it, looking at the intended use and it will get a workout i am going fronts-commodore stud hq slotted only not crossdrilled hq callipers,and rear- vn rotors and callipers .
by the way how much do you want for your front callipers ill buy them off you.
Hi Rob
Sorry mate, would have to disagree with just about everything you said so I�m going to have a massive dummy spit here.
Sure HQ brakes are better than standard LC ones hands down and are a reasonable upgrade to do on the cheap. For that reason the HQ brakes will be going on the EH ute or the 4 door Tory as a safety upgrade. My 4 door LJ brakes are still there after 30 years, but that doesn�t mean they are good.<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">
3 or 4 hard stops on standard VR commodore ute brakes and they are cooked. Add slotted rotors and braking performance increases by a third and it is more difficult to get brake fade unless you are really giving it a kick in the guts on the street. Trying to do the same thing in the Tory I can keep the same pace, but that is only because it is a lighter more manoeuvrable car. However there is a noticeable difference in the braking potential which says alot considering old commo brakes are also pretty crap.
If you can honestly say that dinosaur HQ brakes are comparable to even late model commodore brakes, let alone race brakes, then in my own opinion I don't think your using them to anywhere near their full potential.
To quote �im in no way saying is not superior in performance�
� isn�t that the whole point especially if you own racecars????
If you manage to overcome tight-ass-itis and buy some you will probably crack a fat the first time you use them!!!
It is just simple mechanics:
� 1 piston vs 4 piston = a much more evenly distributed braking pressure applied
� Different leading and trailing piston sizes also help pressure distribution and promote more even pad wear.
� The contact pad area is more evenly distributed on either side of the disc reducing the risk of heat induced stress
� The brake pad thickness is much thicker
� The engineering of how the brakes are applied in relation to mechanics of the moving parts are worlds apart.
� Alloy body reduces unladen weight and improves handling
� And the most important scientific fact is that: you can�t polish a terd no matter how hard you try.
Fairly harsh I admit but in my own opinion it is like comparing s^#t and chocolate, so i will definitely be spending some money on upgrading to something decent.
Hmmm don�t think the anger management classes are working yet hahahaha
But hey maybe I�m wrong and we will see Mark Webber with HQ brakes on his F1 car some time soon.
#18
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Posted 30 October 2010 - 02:34 AM
5200-808/9 are to suit 28mm discs
I have used them on 4040's before
Not 5040 but they should work the same... theres no mount bolts for the bell in the way anyway
The disc could be used as is without having to add a pattern... HQ and Comm are so close that it will not matter in this application
The stud pattern on the hub is the important part here... the disc won't move once wheel bolted on
Thanks Datto, exactly what i needed to hear. That way i can just change my discs later on to 330's with some new brackets if i want.
Only wanted to redrill as i have big fat studs for drags to suit the Welds without having the spacer nuts with the shank. Think that was as clear as mud but if you look at the pic of the back brakes above you will see what i mean.
#19
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Posted 30 October 2010 - 02:48 AM
I know its not quite in the league of performance of the cars you guys drive....but I'm investigating using Landrover 110 front calipers (AP 4 spots) on stock LX discs. Advantages are same hydraulic pipe thread, and they are designed for a solid disc. They do an average job on stopping a 2.5 tonne landy...but might work nicely on 1300 kg Torry.
Also looking at their brake booster....uses same body of the master cylinder as a9x and XE-XF falcons
Should probably have used the multi quote but ....
Had a quick search but couldn't find the right callipers you are talking about, but they may be heavy if used on a lanndy????
post up a link to the one's you are considering.
If you are going that far why not upgrade to vented discs?
#20
_rob350hatch_
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Posted 30 October 2010 - 07:14 AM
yeah agree 100% with everything you say we know all that stuff works unreal .as i said i went to do all that stuff and after many weeks of thrashing it around(thoughts not car)i couldnt warrant the expense vs benefit over existing equipment, based on my experiences with my cars its just not necessary for the application in my opinion thats all. if i had f1 performance yes but none of us do . you did ask for peoples 2 bobs worth.sorry you took it so hard.just trying to help not anger
#21
dattoman
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Posted 30 October 2010 - 02:53 PM
Landy caliper is cast iron and very heavy
#22
FastEHHolden
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Posted 30 October 2010 - 03:17 PM
I know its not quite in the league of performance of the cars you guys drive....but I'm investigating using Landrover 110 front calipers (AP 4 spots) on stock LX discs. Advantages are same hydraulic pipe thread, and they are designed for a solid disc. They do an average job on stopping a 2.5 tonne landy...but might work nicely on 1300 kg Torry.
Also looking at their brake booster....uses same body of the master cylinder as a9x and XE-XF falcons
Should probably have used the multi quote but ....
Had a quick search but couldn't find the right callipers you are talking about, but they may be heavy if used on a lanndy????
post up a link to the one's you are considering.
If you are going that far why not upgrade to vented discs?
Cos it should be an easy bolt on and you keep original KPI and stud pattern
#23
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Posted 30 October 2010 - 07:16 PM
yeah agree 100% with everything you say we know all that stuff works unreal .as i said i went to do all that stuff and after many weeks of thrashing it around(thoughts not car)i couldnt warrant the expense vs benefit over existing equipment, based on my experiences with my cars its just not necessary for the application in my opinion thats all. if i had f1 performance yes but none of us do . you did ask for peoples 2 bobs worth.sorry you took it so hard.just trying to help not anger
Sorry champ, got a bit excited there, my bad.
#24
_rob350hatch_
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Posted 30 October 2010 - 08:22 PM
no dramas all good hope you get it all sorted.
#25
rexy
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Posted 30 October 2010 - 10:55 PM
"And the most important scientific fact is that: you can�t polish a terd no matter how hard you try".
You must have missed the Mythbusters proving you can...
You must have missed the Mythbusters proving you can...
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