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3.8 Ecotec Problems

Started by _Ben_ , Apr 08 2011 10:54 AM

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#26 _Chriso_

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 12:44 AM

I dont think i can check for codes without some diagnostic machine. I dont have anything to display the codes in the car


Hey Ben

Correct me if im wrong ???

The symptoms are: Intermittant Crank no start ? , when it does start there is a noise?

You have not provided much description of the noise but is sounds like from replys it is from the front of the engine ?

When diagnosing engine noise - i would recomend trying all things possible to isolate the noise - Any thing you can do to change the noise you will learn from. ( Use a steathascope 'Screw driver to the ear or hose to ear' , remove the drive belt , isolate cylinders ECT)

Regards Checking for Codes: If you do not have a engine check light - wire one up ASAP - Any good conversion should have one. Attached are so diagrams to assist you to do it your self.

76LXhatch - suggested shorting the diagnostic plug 5-6 & how light will flash - this is how the system works. One of these wires is just a wire to earth (Black wire), the other is diagnostic request input (White/Black wire). So just short the Wh/Bk wore to groung at pin A9 of the PCM.

Then stick a test light into terminal A5 of PCM and the other end to Bat + = no you have a tempory check eng light
.
The PCM will flash the Codes if any are set. Note - Code 12 meens no DTCs set. You will easily find a list of Codes on line , but if you have any trouble let me know whats set and i will let you know the code description.

Attached a few pics of service info for your reverence ...

How this helps - Cheers Chriso

Attached Files


#27 _Chriso_

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 12:57 AM

Hey Ben - Which engine is in ya Torana?

I Didnt read properly - you said Ecotec.

I posted Vn-Vp stuff - proably pics useless to you.

Let me know if you want echtech one's - Whats the engine from VS , VT , VX or VY ?

The principal of what was said still referes to ecotec though.

Cheers Chriso

#28 _Ben_

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 11:00 AM

Ecotec is from a 96 ecotec. Diagrams would be awesome! :)

I honestly dont know where the noise is coming from, and havent had time to check. Im a typical uni student, which means im apparently always busy :P A mate of mine told me the noise was my alternator and he was pretty sure about it, hes usally on the ball about these things. Since talking to him and suggesting its not my alternator he has sinced denied ever saying it was.

Had a really quick look at the harmonic balancer, couldnt see a crack on the inside, but could be on the inside.

God bless this forum. I havent looked at my car yet, but im about to do it now. The help, tips and information you guys have given me is appreciated. The only thing i am complaining about is that someone has come over and fixed it for me already!

#29 _bunkerjest_

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 11:15 AM

quick check to do is to pull both the plug leads off one of the coils. if it doesnt spark across the two then check with an LED test light or a noid if you have one for injector pulse. no spark and pulse is crank angle sensor

#30 _Ben_

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 12:01 PM

Just tried to start the car without the belt on. Car wouldnt turn on, no cranking, no radio...nothing. So i adjusted the battery terminals. Car fired straight away then died 1 second later. Car then went back to turning over but not firing.

Im starting to think its the wiring. The wiring is so messy in the engine bay, I have no idea what is what. Still dont know what that noise is from.

#31 _Ben_

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 01:07 PM

Took leads of coil pack and found the ends were rusty. Probably good idea to replace them me thinks.

I think i might book the car in for a full service once its running. Looks like it might have a few issues that need sorting.

#32 _Woodsy_

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 01:35 PM

There is a lead on the back of the alternator that has a mushroom rubber over it, they crack and can give the same symptoms. Dunno where i read about it but its a common fault apparently.

#33 _Chriso_

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 08:47 PM

[quote name='Ben' timestamp='1302397220' post='583915']
Ecotec is from a 96 ecotec. Diagrams would be awesome! :)



Hey Ben

See attached wiring diagram - It lists the DTCs (Data Trouble codes) & PCM schematic.

For your reference - to suit 96 (VS)

Cheers Chriso

Attached Files


#34 _Gunmetal LH_

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 09:19 PM

My VN would die randomly. Thought it was a dodgy fuel pump- but no. Figured out it was the red/power wire in the wide plug that goes to the module under the coil pack that had corroded a bit.

Cleaned, bent it just a touch for a firmer contact, WD40'd and screwed it back in- sweet ever since.


Maybe because you were playing with the alternator it had flexed the loom just enough to get contact again before engine vibrations moved it back again?

#35 S pack

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 11:06 PM

Just tried to start the car without the belt on. Car wouldnt turn on, no cranking, no radio...nothing. So i adjusted the battery terminals. Car fired straight away then died 1 second later. Car then went back to turning over but not firing.

Im starting to think its the wiring. The wiring is so messy in the engine bay, I have no idea what is what. Still dont know what that noise is from.


Hey Ben

Sounds like you might be on the right track about the wiring being at least one of the problems.
The idler pulley bearings on those engines are a common source of noise that could easily be mistaken as a faulty alternator.
I've replaced all the idler pulleys twice in 190,000 km on our VS ecotec.
Water pump is another possibility if the noise is of a squeaky nature.

Cheers
Dave

#36 _Ben_

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 02:46 PM

The wiring is disgusting. Im almost 100% sure its a wiring problem. Its so messy in the engine bay i dont know what is what, and the wires are looking a little old and frayed.

Im going to have a play around now. I bought a new battery as the old one was getting, well old and slowly dying. The car cranks over but wont fire. I got someone to check the leads for spark as i cranked it. They said they couldnt see anything, but they could be lying.

I dont know if i already mentioned this but it occasionally starts for a second, then dies. Both times this happened the belt was off the car.

#37 _Ben_

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 02:03 PM

Disconnected the battery and changed the old relays for some new ones i just bought, and some new fuses. As soon as i connected the battery back up the thermo fan came on and continues running. Car still wouldnt start, however as i turned the key it shuddered.

I got new leads so its not them. I didnt have enough cash on me to get new plugs yesterday. Might pull them off and see how they look.

#38 _Quagmire_

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 02:34 PM

try replacing the comptur or borrowing a coil/coil pack off a known good car
it was running before with the same plugs so i doubt it will be that

#39 _Ben_

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 03:02 PM

Im starting to suspect the coils. Might go to the wreckers and try and get some cheapies. Im looking at getting some MSD's soon, however i need to drive the car asap to get to work and uni.

Now that you mention it the computer is stored in the glove box. I have noticed that i have a water leak coming from somehwere on the passengers side firewall (passengers floor gets wet). Might be damaged from that leak.

Any suggestions on a "performance" or upgraded computer?

#40 _Ben_

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 03:57 PM

Replaced new relay with an old one. Fan now doesnt come on when battery is connected. Not sure if this is a good or bad thing....possibly the old relay is farked.

#41 _Quagmire_

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 04:11 PM

Im starting to suspect the coils. Might go to the wreckers and try and get some cheapies. Im looking at getting some MSD's soon, however i need to drive the car asap to get to work and uni.

Now that you mention it the computer is stored in the glove box. I have noticed that i have a water leak coming from somehwere on the passengers side firewall (passengers floor gets wet). Might be damaged from that leak.

Any suggestions on a "performance" or upgraded computer?


ha ha good chance it is then
get a "new" one from the wreckers and wrap it in glad wrap to protect it til you fix the leak(vl's are notorious for this)
you only need either a memcal or kalmaster tune

Replaced new relay with an old one. Fan now doesnt come on when battery is connected. Not sure if this is a good or bad thing....possibly the old relay is farked.


"bridge" the reay hole with a paper clip or wire
this will confirm if it's the relay
or just replace it
simple :)

#42 rodomo

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 08:57 PM

As soon as i connected the battery back up the thermo fan came on and continues running. Car still wouldnt start, however as i turned the key it shuddered.


I'm tipping an earth problem here.
Make sure ALL of your relays and puter are properly earthed and also the the earth lead from the battery to the motor AND the body have good tight connections.

Edited by rodomo, 18 April 2011 - 08:58 PM.

#43 _Chriso_

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 09:47 PM

Replaced new relay with an old one. Fan now doesnt come on when battery is connected. Not sure if this is a good or bad thing....possibly the old relay is farked.



Hey Ben

Sounds to me like you put the wrong relay in to cause the fans to run all the time Proably an 87a poll relay.

All this talk of try an ECU or coil pack, replacing leads ect - thats just guessing randomally.

Perfomance ECUs are a fair way off if this is your daily drive and you could not afford sparkplugs.

Can i suggest diagnosing the problem.

You need a Stratergy

1. First and formost - Do you have spark - Not just one isolated spark. You need good spark. Get your mate to crank the engine and you check (then there is no question if he is lying) . Remove the plug leads at the coil pack (all of them) crank the engine. There shouldbe a light show (obvious spark) from the coil pack
2. Is there any Trouble codes - Wire up that engine light and bridge the diagnostic enable circuit Pins 6 & 5. Read the Codes - Do you have any ?
3. If there is no spark check for power at Pin P of the coil pack (Pink wire) Wriggle that coil pack (DFI - Direct fie ignition module) connector while cranking. Bad connections here are common. The terminals lossen over time from current running through them. The female terminals should be 0.95mm.

I believe the DFI can produce a spark even with out the ECU connected

If there is no spark the X18 crank signal needs to be checked - ref diagram. This is one of the outputs from the crank angle sensor. To check this use a multimeter on this wire (Blue/yellow) with red probe & neg battery with Black multimeter lead. The X18 signal is a frequency. Frequency means number of pulces in a second. With the multimeter on HZ (Herts) crank the engine . there should be about 60hz. This confirms this signal is good or Not.

Diagnosis takes off from here. You will either have a Code to follow on from, No spark & injector pulce to diagnosis, a fuel pressure issue or a mechanical condition such as cam timing, compression ect.

If you want i can post the Holden chart for symptom of - engine cranks but does not fire...

Regards Chriso

Happy to help if you have questions.

#44 _wombat_

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 11:43 AM

had same with sons vr last week,crank no fire,no spark,change crank angle sensor and away it goes.
very common problem.

#45 _Ben_

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 05:48 PM

I can afford spark plugs just had no cash or card on me.

I am randomly guessing to be quite honest, but these random guesses are at things that look like they should be replaced. I got a new coil pack from the wreckers, fitted it and still not starting. Ill check for the light show now. Next thing to replace will be the CAS.

I think i fixed the relay problem. Looks like i put one of them in backwards. I was quite careful but still managed to do it.

#46 _Ben_

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 06:15 PM

Car seems to be going further backwards. When i turn the key i now get absoloutely nothing, no sound at all. Reds come on, my handsfree and stereo work. At one stage i had a dim interior light on, so i tried the headlights....nothing. When i took 2 steps toward the engine bay to check for a loose battery terminal, the interior light and headlights came on.

I think i have a date with a multimeter and a shitload of wire over easter. Maybe ill just get it towed to an auto electrician.

#47 _Gunmetal LH_

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 04:59 PM

Have a look at your build thread- http://www.gmh-toran...729-bens-lh-v6/

I put up some pics I found as I thought I recognised your car from somewhere!

Maybe contact the dude "Holden202" and see if he can shed some light on things? http://delcohacking.....php?f=16&t=144

He would know if there's a diagnostic plug and where it might be, also what other fuses etc. and how he supplied power to things...

#48 _Ben_

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 05:57 PM

yeah i might give him a ring after this weekend if i havent fixed it. Just have to find his number now.

I have a wiring diagram for a VS commodore and im ready to tackle the wiring. From the looks of the engine bay the car only has 3 relays, 2 for the fan and one for the ignition i think. I hope that this is where the problem is.

#49 _Quagmire_

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 06:50 PM

we can only guess it's the internet and we can only dianose from afar
puters hate water get a secondhandy wrap it in plastic
with a leak i'm guessing some water got in there and caused havoc
check your earths.....i'm sure some mensioned that way before in this thread
my suggestion is to charge the battery,check all the earthshit it in the guts if still no luck then
try to borrow a comp out of a friends car if you can or buy a second handy
hit it in the guts
if it's not the comp then it must be the cas
order one off evil buy for $50 odd

#50 _Ben_

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 01:12 PM

Well i havent looked at the car or done much about it, been really bisy with uni. SO now is the time to get backinto this.

I did have the wrong relays, but i have now got the right ones. I was really careful to put everything in the same spot as what i took out, but i some how messed it up. Have been playing around with them but im not getting anywhere fast. I have tried looking at a wiring diagram, however im getting stuck as im pretty sure the wiring does not follow the diagram. At the moment i have the reds on constantly and when you turn the key they go off (easy fix just swap them around).

I bought a new battery as my old one was, well old and on its way out. The new battery is now dead, and the old one which i charged up again is also dead. So im guessing something is on and running it dead. Car has nothing when i try and start it, no cranking or anything.I have a new cas but i dont now how to remove the harmonic blancer to change it. However i have notice i can hear something from the engine when i turn the reds on. There is the rattling of something for a few seconds, then when i put my ear close up to the engine i can hear something faint.

I was going to play with the realys now, but cant because i have a dead battery. Its under warranty so ill take it back. I tried charging it but it wouldnt charge. I have worked out what most of the wires are connecting to the relays, although its hard cause the previous owner has changed some of the colours. Anyway i have 3 relays and this is what i think is on each one.

Relay 1
White with black stripe - Ignition
Pink with Blue stripe - Splits and runs to relay 3 and to the connector
Orange with Red stripe - runs to connector
Red wire - Connects to earth point on engine bay and to relay 2

Relay 2
Red Wire - Fuel Pump (coming from fuel pump)
Violet - Fuel Pump (running into connector)
Black wire - is split - connects to a fuse and to red with black stripe runs.
Red and black wire - from relay 1

Relay 3
Red wire - Thermo
Red wire - Thermo
Blck wire - connected to a fuse
Black wire - connected with the pink and blue wire from relay 1

I also have a blue with red stripe comming from the connector and a blue wire, which arent connected to anything. Perhaps they are supposed to connect to each other?

Can someone tell me where these should plug into? I would prefer not to get an auto electrican out.
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