As many of you know, the 308 Holden engine is not a real survivor of circuit racing on slicks with a wet sump,they are fine with a blast here and there, but 20-30 minutes of hard revving and a few corners thrown in,(totally different to drags or a thrash around the block), doesnt do them any good although group c did it for years, with many blow ups & bearing problems, the engine needs lots of attention in the preparation area to get it to stay together, but is still at bit fragile.Ive had 3 goes at wet sump, and they have failed with bearing issues, so this is my last attempt, so the dry sump (constant oil pressure) seems like the way to go.Its not a cheap exercise, but should do the trick.(HOPEFULLY )
So I have started with a standard bore VK Commodore 308 Black block, which I bought of a friend years ago as a spare. the block was bored 20 thou, decked, tunnel bored, standard caps, ARP main stud kit, I had a set of 4 bolt caps for the centre 3, but was advised not to use, no need for a 400 odd HP engine. I have used a Scat 355 cast steel crank, Scat H beams 5.7 chev journal , SRP Forged flat tops, my original L34 style heads, that needed guides and a set of Stainless steel valves, but all the port work done before by John White race engines was perfect.Block preparation was tank the block ,die grind the valley nice and smooth for the oil flow return, paint with glyptol, which is apparently an armature paint for electric motors, but anyway, it seals the porous cast iron for better oil return to the sump.Remove all the plugs that block the oil galleys, remove the oil pump drive shaft, clean all galleys, and fit new machined plugs, not missing the one behind the oil pump shaft at the front.
Dry sump 308 Holden exercise !
Started by
_rocket_
, May 08 2011 07:18 PM
86 replies to this topic
#2
_rocket_
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Posted 08 May 2011 - 07:24 PM
This is going to take me a while to write the whole story, and post the pics, but I will list the costs of each item, with part numbers and the labour for the entire process, so you will get an idea. All the engine build work has been done by Ian Woodward in Brisbane, a well known engine builder and Camaro circuit racer at very reasonable cost.
#3
_Ozzie Picker_
_Ozzie Picker_
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Posted 08 May 2011 - 07:26 PM
hope it works for you this time,
what have you done for the dry sump this time, that you are hoping will work?or did i miss something.
why do you think they have failed before?
what have you done for the dry sump this time, that you are hoping will work?or did i miss something.
why do you think they have failed before?
#4
_rocket_
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Posted 08 May 2011 - 07:32 PM
The 308 black engine short cost $500, new Scat holden 355 chev journal crank $ 400, Scat 5.7 H beam chev journal rods $390 + post, SRP forged Flat tops Holden piston $900, crane solid roller $ 800, Crane premium roller lifters $ 880 , ASR 4 stage dry sump $820, SCP 4 stage dry sump pump $390 off ebay usa + post and the list goes on
#5
_nzstato_
_nzstato_
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Posted 08 May 2011 - 07:37 PM
Interesting to see how this pans out, I've seen another block painted with that stuff, appears to work incredibly well.
Read this?
Priority mains oiling
Read this?
Priority mains oiling
#6
_rocket_
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Posted 08 May 2011 - 07:38 PM
Thanks mate, me too, other wise Im up for another 10,000 in hand bags & shoes !!!hope it works for you this time,
what have you done for the dry sump this time, that you are hoping will work?or did i miss something.
why do you think they have failed before?
I think the main reason was over revving, a not so good sump, and trying to cut corners to save money on builds, doesnt work, best to just spend the money once, buy good parts, and find someone that knows 308s, from group a & c days , that has learned the secrets & tricks from experience.
#7
_rocket_
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Posted 08 May 2011 - 07:42 PM
That is a brilliant thread, Tony has done some awesome work on Jasons hatch, makes heaps of power, and seems to be reliable, look out for the new hatch, he has pretty much done a total rebuild on the brakes etc, will be very quick and well sorted.Interesting to see how this pans out, I've seen another block painted with that stuff, appears to work incredibly well.
Read this?
Priority mains oiling
#8
_nzstato_
_nzstato_
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Posted 08 May 2011 - 07:44 PM
That is a brilliant thread, Tony has done some awesome work on Jasons hatch, makes heaps of power, and seems to be reliable, look out for the new hatch, he has pretty much done a total rebuild on the brakes etc, will be very quick and well sorted.
Interesting to see how this pans out, I've seen another block painted with that stuff, appears to work incredibly well.
Read this?
Priority mains oiling
I thought it was pretty cool too, definately keen to see your approach
#9
_rocket_
_rocket_
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Posted 08 May 2011 - 07:47 PM
These are the SRP 20 thou over Holden pistons, nice bit of gear, and made by SRP to suit a 5.7 rod in a 308 block, with about 10:5:1 comp.
#10
_Ozzie Picker_
_Ozzie Picker_
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Posted 08 May 2011 - 07:52 PM
Thanks mate, me too, other wise Im up for another 10,000 in hand bags & shoes !!!
hope it works for you this time,
what have you done for the dry sump this time, that you are hoping will work?or did i miss something.
why do you think they have failed before?
I think the main reason was over revving, a not so good sump, and trying to cut corners to save money on builds, doesnt work, best to just spend the money once, buy good parts, and find someone that knows 308s, from group a & c days , that has learned the secrets & tricks from experience.
that is definatly the way to go,
sounds like you have found the right guy,
i,ve learnt to spend once with a pro aswell,they just keep on going ,when done right.
i,ll be keen to see your results.
#11
_rocket_
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Posted 08 May 2011 - 07:57 PM
I didnt get a lot of pics during the assembly, only when I dropped into the workshop once a week or so, and with my phone camera, so not real clear, but in these pics, the relieving for the crank etc.The bolt that holds the cam in, is a solid unit, no centre oil hole for the timing chain, apparently not needed.
#13
_rocket_
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Posted 08 May 2011 - 08:48 PM
This is the custom cam grind that Ian came up with to suit my heads, webbers etc
http://www.cranecams.com.au/index.php/component/content/article/100
and these are the lifters.
http://www.cranecams.com.au/index.php/component/content/article/100
and these are the lifters.
#15
_rocket_
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Posted 08 May 2011 - 09:03 PM
This would have been nice on top, but its for vn heads !
#16
_rocket_
_rocket_
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Posted 08 May 2011 - 09:09 PM
This was the reed solid cam that it ran before, good power, heaps of torque, all with a standard stroke etc
#17
_rocket_
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Posted 08 May 2011 - 09:27 PM
Had issues with the sump, doesnt really fit with the L34 pipes, clashes on the driver sides, and throws the alignment of the rest if the exhaust out a fair way.
Hoping it doesnt leak, otherwise the engine has to come back out, because its impossible to get to now its in the car.
Hoping it doesnt leak, otherwise the engine has to come back out, because its impossible to get to now its in the car.
#18
_rocket_
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Posted 08 May 2011 - 09:32 PM
A 4 stage SCP pump from ebay .The adapter on the block to feed the oil system is a BDG unit from WA, about $350 with post, it was about the only place I could find that makes them.
#19
View GaragePosted 09 May 2011 - 07:16 AM
Are you still using the timing chain squirter? A good timing set doesn't really need it but I've had problems with the oil pump drive gear when they are both blocked offThe bolt that holds the cam in, is a solid unit, no centre oil hole for the timing chain, apparently not needed.
#20
ozyozyozy
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Posted 10 May 2011 - 08:45 PM
if your using a standard oil pump you can block the original cam retaining bolt hole and redrill it through the side to direct oil straight onto the oil pump and cam drive gears. dry sump means no drive gear anymore so just block it up.
VERY interested rocket to see how your engine goes, really hope it works out well for you. couple of us in W.A. are looking into it.
no 4 bolt mains? um iv had problems with a standard stroke 308 that the main caps have been moving around on, alot.
even my current motor 4 bolt mains, there has been movement on the 2 bolt frt and Rr caps.
just trying to help with info.
my car is no drag queen, targa south west it sat between 6000rpm and 7000rpm for about 2 to 3 minutes in top gear on a long stage.
VERY interested rocket to see how your engine goes, really hope it works out well for you. couple of us in W.A. are looking into it.
no 4 bolt mains? um iv had problems with a standard stroke 308 that the main caps have been moving around on, alot.
even my current motor 4 bolt mains, there has been movement on the 2 bolt frt and Rr caps.
just trying to help with info.
my car is no drag queen, targa south west it sat between 6000rpm and 7000rpm for about 2 to 3 minutes in top gear on a long stage.
#21
Struggler
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Posted 10 May 2011 - 08:56 PM
...if your using a standard oil pump you can block the original cam retaining bolt hole and redrill it through the side to direct oil straight onto the oil pump and cam drive gears...
That is the best way to get oil to the drive gears. I also remove the dripper and block that hole off.
#22
Posted 10 May 2011 - 09:53 PM
Well duh, sorry about the stupid comment...dry sump means no drive gear anymore
#23
AbsynthHatch
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Posted 11 May 2011 - 12:28 AM
Awesome info Rocket will be watching this closely, Cheers Buddy
#24
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Posted 12 May 2011 - 05:56 PM
Are you still using the timing chain squirter? A good timing set doesn't really need it but I've had problems with the oil pump drive gear when they are both blocked off
The bolt that holds the cam in, is a solid unit, no centre oil hole for the timing chain, apparently not needed.
In the pics, the squirter is still there, but not sure , didnt see them assemble the engine, but Id say it still is.
#25
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Posted 12 May 2011 - 06:04 PM
Thanks for the info Ozy, I had a set of caps to use, and he said just use a stud kit, I ll only be revving it to 6000, so hopefully no problems.He is renowned for building group a & c engines in the day,and said they were fine with 2 bolt back then, but when we look back at those days,they werent all bullet proof.if your using a standard oil pump you can block the original cam retaining bolt hole and redrill it through the side to direct oil straight onto the oil pump and cam drive gears. dry sump means no drive gear anymore so just block it up.
VERY interested rocket to see how your engine goes, really hope it works out well for you. couple of us in W.A. are looking into it.
no 4 bolt mains? um iv had problems with a standard stroke 308 that the main caps have been moving around on, alot.
even my current motor 4 bolt mains, there has been movement on the 2 bolt frt and Rr caps.
just trying to help with info.
my car is no drag queen, targa south west it sat between 6000rpm and 7000rpm for about 2 to 3 minutes in top gear on a long stage.
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