1672 replies to this topic

[Bigfella237]

Ah yeah, I forgot the Vortech motors had Variable Valve Timing, that explains why the belt drives are spaced out so far...

 

With VVT:

 

 LS Engine VVT Timing Cover with front Cam Sensor.jpg   37.33K   5 downloads

 

Without:

 

 LS Engine Non-VVT Timing Cover with front Cam Sensor.jpg   95.33K   5 downloads

 

[eyepeeler]

With out going into the harmonic balancer position and which engine has what, of which I still don't know, I did look into water pumps.
So far I have spotted 3 different types that fit an LS2.






They are the same mounting points and inlet/outlet point but the castings are different.

The mounts for the alternator etc will differ depending on which one you have.
As you can see, the tensioner pulley offset is different.


In the end I can use the pump I have with offset of all bolt on parts like the alternator etc to suit the belt position that is closer to the block.

[eyepeeler]

With all electrical parts now on the car, I am having to wait for the sparks to do his bit and finish wiring it up.
Got the Holley throttle body on, will look at accelerator cable next.

[ls2lxhatch]

Sounds like you have the corvette harmonic balancer and alternator with a Camaro water pump.

[eyepeeler]

Sounds like you have the corvette harmonic balancer and alternator with a Camaro water pump.

Any reason there are many different casting designs for the water pump?

[Bigfella237]

The Corvette engine bay is very tight on space...

 

 

...with the sloping bonnet (sorry Jeff, hood) and OTR CAI, the radiator leans back on an angle so they pushed all the accessory drive system backward as well, which is why the Corvette balancer is so short.

 

And as I mentioned above, the Vortech truck motors have Variable Valve Timing meaning the water pump had to move forward to clear the actuator in the timing case, therefore the whole accessory drive system moved forward as well, hence the long balancer on the truck motors.

 

Everything else just got the middle-of-the-road balancer and accessory mountings.

 

To add to what Jeff said, there's obviously different radiator configurations to suit different cars too, but the fundamental idea behind the LS motor design is for all the bolt-ons to be interchangeable, which is a big part of why they're such a versatile and popular conversion.

 

P.S. Hey Craig, you sure your clutch line is gonna be long enough?

Edited by Bigfella237, 05 December 2015 - 05:24 AM.

[Bigfella237]

No it's nothing to do with Displacement on Demand (or Active Fuel Management as Holden calls it).

 

VVT has been around long before the Gen 5 LT motors, your two previous trucks would've been too old but are you sure your current truck doesn't have it...

 

(See quoted text here: http://gmauthority.c...mall-block-v-8/)

 

 

GM has announced that all V-8 powered Chevrolet and GMC trucks now feature variable valve timing (VVT) for the 2010 model year.

 

 

VVT has already been available on GM’s small-block 6.0L and 6.2L V-8s. The widely-anticipated addition of VVT to the 4.8L and 5.3L V-8s completes its rollout in the truck small block V-8 engine line.

 

So the Gen IV L92, L96 & L99 (cast iron) truck motors have had VVT since before 2010 (I don't know when but I'm guessing since the release of Gen IV motors in 2005) and I assumed from that time on that all truck engine's harmonic balancers were the longer ones since they wouldn't want to make two different sets of accessory mounts.

 

Or am I missing something?

 

P.S. Apologies to Craig, we've derailed your build thread yet again.

Edited by Bigfella237, 05 December 2015 - 08:55 AM.

[eyepeeler]

No it's nothing to do with Displacement on Demand (or Active Fuel Management as Holden calls it).

VVT has been around long before the Gen 5 LT motors, your two previous trucks would've been too old but are you sure your current truck doesn't have it...

(See quoted text here: http://gmauthority.c...mall-block-v-8/)





So the Gen IV L92, L96 & L99 (cast iron) truck motors have had VVT since before 2010 (I don't know when but I'm guessing since the release of Gen IV motors in 2005) and I assumed from that time on that all truck engine's harmonic balancers were the longer ones since they wouldn't want to make two different sets of accessory mounts.

Or am I missing something?

P.S. Apologies to Craig, we've derailed your build thread yet again.

That's ok, derail it. That diverts the conversation away from the long clutch line, lol.
It is a bit longer than needed but I wanted a bit of extra length to make it easier to join when getting the engine back in.

I bought the engine I have with the understanding that it is an L98, with the engine number you saw can you tell?

[Bigfella237]

I bought the engine I have with the understanding that it is an L98, with the engine number you saw can you tell?

 

From my research into the subject so far (the accuracy of which I make no guarantees about whatsoever BTW), all Holden & HSV LS1 V8's up until the end of 2005 had a "VF" engine number prefix regardless of what they were fitted to.

 

From January 2006 they started using the RPO codes to prefix Gen IV engine numbers (from the VE factory service manual)...

 

 

The first Gen IV V8s fitted to mid-VZ Commodores onward were L76 engines, basically an LS2 bottom end, with the heads off an L92 truck engine and with the DoD/AFM hardware (except it wasn't activated in the ECU). These motors were prefixed with engine numbers "6MA" for manual trans or "6MB" for auto trans, the VZ Series II ran from January 2006 to July 2006 when the VE sedan was released.

 

From the start of VE all V8 engines were the L98 with a "7NC" prefix for manual trans or "7ND" for auto, the L98 is just an L76 with all the DoD/AFM hardware removed (being lifters, high volume oil pump and relief valve, as well as the valley cover with the solenoid assy attached (see below)).

 

Also with the delayed release of station wagons and utes, GMH continued to manufacture VZ wagons and utes but with the L98 engine same as the VE, both wagons and utes had different prefixes again but I haven't quite nailed them down yet, I know a manual L98 VZ ute is "CAK" and an auto L98 VZ wagon is "7NB" but I'm having trouble finding info. These ran until the release of their respective VE ugrades in August 2007 for utes and July 2008 for wagons.

 

From April 7th 2009 Holden started refitting the L76 engine to auto vehicles only (while manual trans vehicles still got the L98) until the release of the VE Series II in September 2010 when all V8 vehicles (auto and manual) were fitted with the new L77, all of which had different engine number prefixes again. The L77 is just an L76 with some added hardware to allow it to run on Ethanol fuels (valves and seats, injectors, extra sensors and an ECU tune) except now the DoD/AFM was actually active in auto vehicles only (manual vehicles still had the hardware, it was just switched off).

 

All HSV vehicles from the same period had different prefixes yet again, so you can see it's a very specific system, you can match the engine number exactly with the vehicle and transmission it came from (providing your list is complete and accurate of course).

 

Also (and I probably should have led with this), if you refer to the picture above, your number being 6MB05305**** means it was manufactured on the 305th day of 2005 (or November 1st 2005 if google is any good) for the upcoming VZ Series II

 

L98 motors didn't start getting produced until six or seven months after your motor in the leadup to the VE.

 

Long story short (yeah I know, too late for that), I'm 99% sure your motor is an L76, but they're more or less an L98 anyway, it's just that SRE (hopefully) removed all the DoD/AFM hardware instead of Holden.

 

DoD/AFM motors have 8 standard lifters and 8 collapsible lifters...

 

 Difference between AFM and normal LS lifters.jpg   114.25K   4 downloads

 

...on cylinders 1, 4, 6 and 7, the problem is that these collapsible lifters are barely good enough for a standard engine and crap-out under any extra valve lift, valve spring tension or extended high RPM.

 

These lifters are deactivated hydraulically using engine oil pressure by 4 electric solenoids (which BTW are renowned for developing leaks) mounted under a specific valley cover...

 

 0405phr_gmdod_05_z.jpg   57.94K   6 downloads

 

...which has a labyrinth of oil passages moulded into it...

 

 How to Identify a DOD Engine.jpg   201.92K   5 downloads

 

...whereas an LS2 / L98 valley cover has the oil passages blocked off from underneath...

 

 valleycoverunder.jpg   58.12K   5 downloads

 

...and smooth on top...

 

 LS2valleycover1.jpg   58.56K   6 downloads

 

You can tell an LS2 / L98 (smooth) cover by the PCV tube sticking out the front (which yours has). BTW, you may have noticed from the above that your engine still has the L76 rocker covers on it too, the L98 covers don't have PCV tubes at all so you will either need to block them off, which probably isn't a good idea on a race car engine, or connect them all into the PCV solenoid on the front of the RH cylinder head.

 

Anyway, I could literally sit here typing about LS engines all day but things to do and all that...

[Bigfella237]

God, all of that barely scratches the surface! That's only some of the engines used by Holden in Australia, if you start looking at all the US variations it's mind boggling.

 

I've been thinking for a while now about writing a wiki on GM engines for the forum but the trouble is it'd need an entire sub-forum, if you piled everything into a single thread nobody would ever be able to find any information!

 

The other thing that turns me off is the inability to edit posts after the initial ten minutes (or however long it is) runs out, such a subject would need hundreds of updates as I'm still learning heaps of new info all the time (and unlearning some stuff I thought I knew)!

 

Plus I think I'd want the ability to clean the threads myself too (knowing how things tend to go sideways around here)...

 

~ I'm 99% sure your motor is an L76, but they're more or less an L98 anyway ~

 

One more tidbit of info I forgot...

 

I am 99% sure that all Holden & HSV Gen IV 6.0L (LS2 / L76 / L98 / L77) engines used the same block casting, being 12568952

That number should be cast into the rear of the block just below the back end of the left hand cylinder head, just above the bellhousing...




 

[ls2lxhatch]

Did your engine have a sticker on the back of the left head similar to this? This sticker indicates LS2.

 

This webpage shows some of the different accessory drive configurations and water pumps used on LS engines to fit different engine bay requirements.

http://ls2lxhatch.com/accessory.htm

Edited by ls2lxhatch, 05 December 2015 - 12:36 PM.

[Bigfella237]

 ~ This webpage shows some of the different accessory drive configurations ~

 

Good to see, thanks!

 

BTW, I hope you don't mind me being petty but that webpage's title says "interior" for some reason?

 

That "6MC" prefix is a new one to me, do you happen to know what it came out of? I assume a late VZ HSV as it's a November 24th 2005 date code but do you know if it was a manual or auto (looks like an auto flex plate)?

[ls2lxhatch]

The 6MC was the used in 2005 Corvette, 2005-2006 GTO and 2006 SSR.

 

I bought it as a crate motor from a Holden Dealer, it was a surplus engine that was originally intended for VZ HSV. It came with a flex plate.

 

I have fixed the webpage title.

[eyepeeler]

Hey Andrew,
Valley cover is smooth on top.
Is that L98 like you mentioned??

[Bigfella237]

Correct Craig, that's the LS2 / L98 (non-DoD) valley cover, I hope you didn't pull the whole manifold off just to check?

 

You can see too that you have the better design L92 rectangular port heads as well (looks like they've had a tickle with a die grinder too).

 

BTW, you see those steam ports in the front of each head, they are also in the back of each head but most likely blocked off, I've read a lot of engine builders say you should also plumb the rear steam ports into the radiator / header tank as well, for very little work it's good insurance that you won't get an air pocket trapped back there.

Edited by Bigfella237, 07 December 2015 - 06:54 PM.

[ls2lxhatch]

The rear steam ports were connected on the LS1 car engines but apparently not on the truck engines. They cause clearance issues with some manifolds.

 

Edited by ls2lxhatch, 08 December 2015 - 01:49 AM.

[Bigfella237]

Did your engine have a sticker on the back of the left head similar to this? This sticker indicates LS2.

 

After some more research I've found that "6MC" LS2 should be one of those very early "Franken-engines" that, while technically a Gen IV motor, still had the 24x Crank Reluctor and 1x Cam Trigger etc. from the Gen III?

 

If anyone's interested, I've started a list of Gen IV engine number prefixes (as fitted to Aussie cars) over on the Just Commodores forum here:

 

http://forums.justco...r-prefixes.html

 

It seems to be a lot more complex than I first thought, with a different prefix issued for not just every model but every "model year" (as in MY09, MY09.5, MY10 etc.), so far I've found 8 of these changes in VE Commodores alone! Although they appear to have gotten their act together for VF?

[eyepeeler]

After some more research I've found that "6MC" LS2 should be one of those very early "Franken-engines" that, while technically a Gen IV motor, still had the 24x Crank Reluctor and 1x Cam Trigger etc. from the Gen III?
 
If anyone's interested, I've started a list of Gen IV engine number prefixes (as fitted to Aussie cars) over on the Just Commodores forum here:
 
http://forums.justco...r-prefixes.html
 
It seems to be a lot more complex than I first thought, with a different prefix issued for not just every model but every "model year" (as in MY09, MY09.5, MY10 etc.), so far I've found 8 of these changes in VE Commodores alone! Although they appear to have gotten their act together for VF?

It's an absolute mine field with all the variations of the engine.
At this stage I'm not that worried about what I have, I just want the bastard going. That would be nice.

Thanks for posting up all the info though, it is quite an interesting read. Lots to know and learn.