1672 replies to this topic

[Bigfella237]

Oil filter has anti drain back valve in built.

 

The "Anti Drain-Back Valve" (aka non-return valve) in that filter pictured above is nothing more than that orange rubber flap you can see covering the inside of the outer ring of holes (the inlet side of the filter).

 

It's designed to stop the oil in the filter draining back into the sump when the motor isn't running, but it doesn't really apply to you since your filter is mounted upwards, gravity is your drain-back valve.

 

A bypass valve is a totally different thing, it's designed to allow the oil to continue flowing even if the filter gets completely blocked, normally it's just a little spring-loaded reed valve and I'd be very surprised if there isn't one built-in to most oil filters these days...

 

 FilterFlowDiagram2.jpg   81.24K   1 downloads

Edited by Bigfella237, 26 July 2016 - 02:48 PM.

[ls2lxhatch]

Thanks for the info Andy. Daz mentioned a drain back valve which would be a non return valve and you mention a bypass valve. Which is better or are they the same thing? Bypass and drain back mean different things so I would think they are not the same.
What is the main disadvantage to not have either feature?

 

The stock LS oil pan like most factory oil pans have a bypass valve built into the filter mount. In the picture below it is the small circle below the filter spigot.

 

If the filter is restricting oil flow then the valve is pushed open and the oil can bypass the filter. The only advantage of a non-bypass filter system is that all the oil is filtered.

 

Some remote filter setups have a bypass valve built in, some remote filter setups rely on the bypass valve in the factory pan. Some remote filter setups rely on a bypass built into the filter. Some race engines are built without any bypass.

 

There are several conditions that can cause oil to bypass the filter in a system where the filter is between the oil pump and the oil galleries.

 

1. Cold oil is too thick

2. High RPM

3. Oil filter is clogged

4. Oil filter is too small

 

If you have a filter system without a bypass valve that is between the oil pump and the oil galleries then you need as big a filter as possible. You will need to keep the rpm low when the oil is cold. You also need to use a filter that can handle the higher pressures the filter will experience without a bypass. It is not uncommon for a filter to burst.

 

The majority of filters do not have a bypass valve as they rely on the factory bypass.

For example the K&N HP-1007 to suit the LS1 (Ryco Z160) does not have a bypass. The filter specifications are above half way down the page.

Edited by ls2lxhatch, 26 July 2016 - 05:14 PM.

[ozyozyozy]

I like to block the factory bypass valves, i want my oil to be filtered 100% of the time.
Warming the oil is not a big problem.

[ls2lxhatch]

I like to block the factory bypass valves, i want my oil to be filtered 100% of the time.
Warming the oil is not a big problem.

 

I doubt the Z160 is suitable for a LS engine with a full filtration system. The Z160 is tiny (86 mm high, 77 mm diameter).

 

What filter would you recommend for Craig's application? 

[eyepeeler]

I doubt the Z160 is suitable for a LS engine with a full filtration system. The Z160 is tiny (86 mm high, 77 mm diameter).

What filter would you recommend for Craig's application?

I think I will go for a bigger filter without the bypass. I am cutting it fine by running -12 hose to the rear tank. Which could be more of an issue??

More bits and shits done, gear leaver boot and extinguisher.

[Bigfella237]

I am cutting it fine by running -12 hose to the rear tank.

 

I was reading about an LS7 crate motor (which comes with the dry sump setup including the internal two-stage oil pump) and they recommend -12AN (3/4" tube) from pump back to the oil tank, and -16AN (1" tube) on suction side from the tank back to the engine. Also to ensure any hoses used are suitable for suction so they don't collapse?

[eyepeeler]

I was reading about an LS7 crate motor (which comes with the dry sump setup including the internal two-stage oil pump) and they recommend -12AN (3/4" tube) from pump back to the oil tank, and -16AN (1" tube) on suction side from the tank back to the engine. Also to ensure any hoses used are suitable for suction so they don't collapse?

That's what concerns me. But as I had originally planned a tank up front I had all the fittings to do that, and they're not on the cheap side, so I used what I had.
Going to spin the oil pump manually to see what pressure I get and see what flows I get before I fire it up.

Edited by eyepeeler, 27 July 2016 - 07:28 PM.

[ozyozyozy]

I use a K&N, if you can use the biggest you can find, largest thread dia aswell.
It comes down to what you can fit and whats readily available tho which usually is what defines the end result.

Packaging dry sump in a torana is not straight forward.

Just an FYI i use -16 from tank to pump on both scavenge and pump side.
-12 from pump to filter, cooler then engine.
-12 from sump to pump

Understand the cost craig those fittings add up, costs more than doing the dry sump.

[Racehatch]

I think I will go for a bigger filter without the bypass. I am cutting it fine by running -12 hose to the rear tank. Which could be more of an issue??
 

 

Like the others have said I reckon the best way to go is a full flow filter, I run a Wix Filter (51061R) - As mentioned earlier, re the oil hoses, lots of people run -12 from the tank in the boot to the pump with no problems, last time I ran one that way I ran -16 from the tank to the front firewall, then -12 from there to the pump, that way you get a bit more volume in the line just to make sure. Use good quality earls or speedflow braided hose and a support spring if you really want to be sure it wont collapse.

 

The window net looks okay, just remember you need to add a tag that is attached to the release mechanism so the track marshals can release the net in an emergency 

[eyepeeler]

Ok, that settles it, 3 racers can't be wrong. -16 on the supply it is. If I kept -12 from the tank to bulk head fitting in the boot floor which is about 300mm long that would be OK do you think? I could run -16 from that bulkhead to the pump. I am planning to fill it with oil tomorrow night and run the pump off a drill, will see what pressure I get. I want to try the starter motor out.
Cheers Paul, Sam and Daz.

Have to agree with OzyOzyOzy on this one. You need to run -16 from the tank in the boot to the pump due to the long distance.
This is how I've done mine and its been reliable for years. I've heard many stories of guys who've tried -12 from a boot mounted tank and had low oil pressure problems till they changed to -16. There's even a story about it in the Jim Richards biography.
My 2c worth anyway.

Like the others have said I reckon the best way to go is a full flow filter, I run a Wix Filter (51061R) - As mentioned earlier, re the oil hoses, lots of people run -12 from the tank in the boot to the pump with no problems, last time I ran one that way I ran -16 from the tank to the front firewall, then -12 from there to the pump, that way you get a bit more volume in the line just to make sure. Use good quality earls or speedflow braided hose and a support spring if you really want to be sure it wont collapse.

The window net looks okay, just remember you need to add a tag that is attached to the release mechanism so the track marshals can release the net in an emergency

I use a K&N, if you can use the biggest you can find, largest thread dia aswell.
It comes down to what you can fit and whats readily available tho which usually is what defines the end result.
Packaging dry sump in a torana is not straight forward.
Just an FYI i use -16 from tank to pump on both scavenge and pump side.
-12 from pump to filter, cooler then engine.
-12 from sump to pump
Understand the cost craig those fittings add up, costs more than doing the dry sump.

Edited by eyepeeler, 03 August 2016 - 10:29 PM.

[eyepeeler]

I have also found out that Jerico now insist on an oil cooler for their 5 speed gearboxes. That wasn't mentioned when I bought it some time ago.

[Bigfella237]

Just as a matter of interest, I worked out the volume of oil each line would hold (guessing 4 metres total length) and the difference between -12AN and -16AN is almost double!

 

-12AN x 4m = 1.140 litres
-16AN x 4m = 2.028 litres
 

That's roughly 1.8 kgs of oil sitting in that line alone.

[eyepeeler]

Just as a matter of interest, I worked out the volume of oil each line would hold (guessing 4 metres total length) and the difference between -12AN and -16AN is almost double!
 
-12AN x 4m = 1.140 litres
-16AN x 4m = 2.028 litres
 
That's roughly 1.8 kgs of oil sitting in that line alone.

Hell, that's quite a bit!!
Shame the price of the hose follows the same result, almost double.

[Racehatch]

Ok, that settles it, 3 racers can't be wrong. -16 on the supply it is. If I kept -12 from the tank to bulk head fitting in the boot floor which is about 300mm long that would be OK do you think? I could run -16 from that bulkhead to the pump. I am planning to fill it with oil tomorrow night and run the pump off a drill, will see what pressure I get. I want to try the starter motor out.
Cheers Paul, Sam and Daz.

 

If you are going to do it, you might as well do it properly and run it -16 the whole way, restricting it to -12 at the tank end kind of defeats the purpose (to an extent) - Take the money pain now (don't worry i know by this time in the build the bills are piling up..) , but its much cheaper than a knackered engine later

Edited by Racehatch, 03 August 2016 - 11:18 PM.

[eyepeeler]

(don't worry i know by this time in the build the bills are piling up

Ain't that the truth!

[Potta]

Starting to look like a race car now though, its awesome the amount of progress you have made.

[Bigfella237]

A little off topic here but do you remember in the movie Days of Thunder when Harry told the car he was gonna give it a fuel line to "hold an extra gallon of gas"? Well I started wondering...

 

Lets say a standard fuel line is 1/2" ID x 12 feet long, that would hold 0.980 pints or 0.122 gallons (0.4635 litres).

 

If he wants to add an extra (US) gallon (3.785 litres) of volume to that fuel line, it would need to be a 1/2" line 109.7 feet (33.441 metres) long, roughly three times around the car!

 

Or a 1" ID fuel line 27.48 feet (8.377 metres) long!

 

Or maybe he was gonna plumb it into the rollcage tubing (can't see NASCAR liking that idea too much though)?

[ozyozyozy]

Some times the reason for -16 to the pump is so the pump has a good "head" of oil its not straining as hard supply, less cavitation internally.
It can only flow as much as its smallest restriction.

Does the jerrico have an internal mechanical oil pump?
Or will you have to fit electric?

Tilton make 3 different oil pumps for coolers, only 1 is rated for extended duty, left on all the time.

[Racehatch]

A little off topic here but do you remember in the movie Days of Thunder when Harry told the car he was gonna give it a fuel line to "hold an extra gallon of gas"? Well I started wondering...

 

Lets say a standard fuel line is 1/2" ID x 12 feet long, that would hold 0.980 pints or 0.122 gallons (0.4635 litres).

 

If he wants to add an extra (US) gallon (3.785 litres) of volume to that fuel line, it would need to be a 1/2" line 109.7 feet (33.441 metres) long, roughly three times around the car!

 

Or a 1" ID fuel line 27.48 feet (8.377 metres) long!

 

Or maybe he was gonna plumb it into the rollcage tubing (can't see NASCAR liking that idea too much though)?

 

The fuel line thing was a Smokey Yunick trick from the 60's - http://www.hotrod.co...-smokey-yunick/

[355LX]

The fuel line thing was a Smokey Yunick trick from the 60's - http://www.hotrod.co...-smokey-yunick/

That link was a great read, thanks for that.

Craig you can definitely see that light at the end of the tunnel now. I found with every car I've built, the last stage to get it over the line requires hurting the wallet in a big way, haha.

[a9x868]

and no doubt about it the last great expense will be the very very pink type L34 tow strap

lol haha craig i,m still spewing

[eyepeeler]

Starting to look like a race car now though, its awesome the amount of progress you have made.

  
Cheers Craig, appreciate that.

Some times the reason for -16 to the pump is so the pump has a good "head" of oil its not straining as hard supply, less cavitation internally.
It can only flow as much as its smallest restriction.
Does the jerrico have an internal mechanical oil pump?
Or will you have to fit electric?
Tilton make 3 different oil pumps for coolers, only 1 is rated for extended duty, left on all the time.

  
Hey Daz, I have looked at a Weldon pump and 13 row cooler. I was speaking to the bloke who is going to wire it up and he mentioned that it is good practice to have it turn on when the box get to certain temp. This prevents the pump from straining with cold heavy oil.

Craig you can definitely see that light at the end of the tunnel now. I found with every car I've built, the last stage to get it over the line requires hurting the wallet in a big way, haha.

 
Hey Dave, I have booked in TuneCorp to fire it up tomorrow week. Pressure is on to make sure it all works prior to then, next Friday is D-Day.

 

and no doubt about it the last great expense will be the very very pink type L34 tow strap
lol haha craig i,m still spewing

Bahahaha Dave, pink tow strap. If you had written this earlier I may have gotten a pink one just for you, I have already fitted a couple of Red ones..

[eyepeeler]

Well out comes the -12 supply pipe and I have ordered pipe and fitting for -16.
I couldn't get a -10 to -16 port adaptor as the pump has a female -10 thread.
I am going for -10 to -12 port adaptor, -12 F & F low profile 90, -12 to -16 reducing Union to a -16 hose end and hose to the tank.
Couldn't find a -10 to -16 port adaptor in the Earls catalogue.