91 replies to this topic

[S pack]

None of the parts books I have have a sump included in a short motor replacement, so which spare parts list are you quoting from?
And I do know there are about three types of rear mains but these don't seem to have started as rope til 1974.
Late 186 replacements were part machined on the 173 line and remaining machining on the 202 machine line, this is why they have 202 main bearing caps machined out to early 173 and 186 journal size.

Mike

I don't recall an oil pick up or sump being included with a short motor.

Edited by S pack, 04 December 2012 - 04:03 PM.

[yel327]

None of the parts books I have have a sump included in a short motor replacement, so which spare parts list are you quoting from?
And I do know there are about three types of rear mains but these don't seem to have started as rope til 1974.
Late 186 replacements were part machined on the 173 line and remaining machining on the 202 machine line, this is why they have 202 main bearing caps machined out to early 173 and 186 journal size.

Mike

Correct, I was referring to original fitment engines having different sumps hence the reason for the different prefixes ie 186A to 186P. I did stuff up though as I did say "Nasco short motor" but I meant "Nasco service engine", ie a HK Nasco service engine won't fit a HR.
Rear main seals do change when I stated. If I can find the exact details i'll post it up.

[yel327]

And I do know there are about three types of rear mains but these don't seem to have started as rope til 1974.
Late 186 replacements were part machined on the 173 line and remaining machining on the 202 machine line, this is why they have 202 main bearing caps machined out to early 173 and 186 journal size.

I purposely did not quote low compression engines as these have low compression pistons, so that we are comparing aples with aples.
As you have raised the subject of different camshafts, again I clarified my statement that this did not include 186S & X2 etc.

The 7420034 camshaft was fitted to EH, HD, HR, HK 161 and 186 Trimatic, HJ 173, LC/LJ 2250, 2600 and 2850.

X2 was 7428331, 186S was 7428531, HT 186 powerglide 7428531, HJ 202 was 2818929 ( can be used 173 etc )

2600S 7428531, 186X 2815739, optional XH cam 2823364

There will ba a couple of others too, like the 2850S and the CK camshaft, but can see that there many models that share the same standard camshaft which could have shared the same short motor, please note a short motor for these common standard engines did not include a sump.
It was most likely the period where the engine machine shop was reconfigured to 202 that 186 engines were difficult to obtain ( until they set up for it later ) and it would likely be this transition time that complete 202 engines were used for waranty replacements, certainally the low engine numbers point to this.
Of course when the reconfiguration on the engine line was complete they once again were able to continue production of the 186 replacement short motors and block and piston sets.

Mike

I don't have evidence to the contrary (yet) but apart from the limited run of CK engines and the NK replacements I do not believe GMH made any more 161 or 186 engines post HQ engine release. The fact that both HG and LC changed to HQ engines post HQ engine release once each assembly plant's stocks of 161 and 186 ran out sort of shows you that 161 and 186 had ceased production. This was not a rushed-in change either, there was some not insignificant Engineering done to make the 173 and 202 fit - stuff like heater hoses etc. Anything sold after this was probably either very limited run or done using stockpiled gear (happy to be proven wrong!).

There was no 186 trimatic in HK. HT 186 used the HK 186S cam up until trimatic was introduced, and then the auto 186 and 186S went back to the HK cam. There no single camshaft used all through the HK,T and G series for any 186 with the exception of manual 186S. However you are correct many engines did share the same camshaft at variuos stages.

Not all HJ 202 use the same camshaft either. On those with ADR27A compliant engines, the manual and auto 202 used a different camshaft, auto was more powerful at 118hp gross, manual was 109hp. The manual used the same cam as the pre ADR27A 202 but the auto's cam was much bigger. ADR27A LX/UC 202 engines were similar and the auto even used a different engine number prefix to the manual engine.

Note, not all low comp engines used different pistons.

[S pack]

2600S 7428531, 186X 2815739, optional XH cam 2823364

Mike

optional XH cam 2823364. In an LC XU1? Really? I thought that was the part number for the LJ XU1 XH camshaft.
The LC XU1 XH camshaft was part number 2822075, it first became available as a dealer fitted performance upgrade for LC XU1 in March 1971, it was subsequently called up in production as the Std factory fitted LC XU1 camshaft in July 1971.

[S pack]

I don't have evidence to the contrary (yet) but apart from the limited run of CK engines and the NK replacements I do not believe GMH made any more 161 or 186 engines post HQ engine release. The fact that both HG and LC changed to HQ engines post HQ engine release once each assembly plant's stocks of 161 and 186 ran out sort of shows you that 161 and 186 had ceased

I beg to differ. The GMH July 1971 engine usage chart states and I quote: " With introduction of HQ displacements, provision will be made to continue supply of 186 and 186S service engines. Therefore 202 engines may not be used for service of models prior to HQ".

Remember also that all LC XU1 built after HQ release still had 186ci displacement engines.

The GMH June 1973 engine usage chart re-affirms the continuance of 186 service engines.
Although no mention is specifically made about 161 service engines being continued, the 1973 chart lists 2600 or 2850 and 2600S or 2850S service engines as suitable replacements for LC 2600 & 2600S engines.

It is also interesting to note the 1973 chart states that with the discontinuance of 132 - 138 (grey) engines from Nasco, reconditioned engines and short engines should be used to service pre EH vehicles.
However the 1971 engine chart makes no reference to discontinuance of 132 - 138 (grey) engines which leads me to believe that these service engines were still available from Nasco in 1971 but were discontinued before June 1973.


Which then leads me to believe that as there is no reference to discontinuance of 161 (2600cc) service engines in the 1973 engine chart then references to the use of 161 service engines for HR, HK, HT, HG and LC Torana could mean 161 service engines were still available at the time of printing of the 1973 chart.

The situation is different for EH & HD models.The 1971 engine chart recommends the use of either 161, 186 or 173 service engines to replace 149, 179 and 179 X2 engines. So it seems that 149 and 179 service engines were not available anymore from Nasco by July 1971. This information is reiterated in the 1973 engine chart.

[yel327]

I still reckon most of those may be stockpiled service engines, but as I said happy to be proven wrong. Some anectodal evidence - I remember seeing old stock red motor short engines in the mid 80's for sale as a discount at Young and Green. These were clearance of warranty stock. They were old red engines, not blue engines built to suit red motor powered cars.

[yel327]

Please note with the introduction of the HQ for the first time complete engines were listed as being available "on a firm order basis" apart from 149 Holden did not list other size replacement engines before mid 1971.

Holden Service letter dated 22nd July 1971 states:

"With the introduction of the HQ displacements provisions will be made to continue to suply of 186 and 186S service engines. Therefore 202 engines may not be used for service engines. Therefore 202 engines may not be used for service of models prior to HQ."

This was however known to be varied in the instance of late LC XU-1 where complete 202 engines were being used in the late 1971 warrany replacement engines. Those had a five digit JP 202 engine with mid 1971 dates.

186 engines past the introduction of the HQ were definately made as indicated above and were not old stock blocks, and were machined during the HQ period therefore things like main bearing caps were different to previous 186 engines, the 138 & 173 of this period also had this unusual main bearing set up in which they were marked with an S to distinguish them from 202 caps.
I own one of these late production 186 engines and it carries the four digit Nasco number ( as acording to the service document it was a service engine ) not a block and piston set and not a short motor.
this 186 engine is dated July 1972.

Mike

Rubbish. Complete service engines of every size and shape were available in HK. Group 0.000.

I still reckon most 186 warranty stuff was old stock, if you have one done later I still believe it will be the exception rather than the rule. This is how most other stuff was done. It still happens when you see old stock service/warranty stock hit Ebay. Lots of VSIII roller cam 5.0L engines hit the market around 4-5 years after the last 5.0L VSIII's were sold in 2000. Same happened recently with 5.7L engines. As per post above there were still red short motors around as old warranty stock in the mid 80's.

Nasco numbers went on short motors too as they are different for different applications, and different for manual and auto. I've already told you this in previous posts. Nasco numbers existed for service and warranty engines from the start of HK. They appear to a different Nasco sequence to the HQ engines as the sequence had reached over 3000 by the time HQ engine numbers started.

[S pack]

I still reckon most of those may be stockpiled service engines, but as I said happy to be proven wrong. Some anectodal evidence - I remember seeing old stock red motor short engines in the mid 80's for sale as a discount at Young and Green. These were clearance of warranty stock. They were old red engines, not blue engines built to suit red motor powered cars.

You may well be correct, Nasco more than likely stockpiled enough service engines of various displacements to cater for warranty replacements over at least the following 12 months after the last vehicle was sold with a particular discontinued capacity release engine, as well as for a minority of owners of older models who would prefer to replace their engine with a brand new one rather than getting their engine reconditioned.

The inference in the wording of the engine usage charts is that 'Service Engines' are long motors not shorts.
I can easily imagine some dealers may have still been holding stock of new red shorts motors or even long motors in the mid eighties, by this time the usual practice was just to get a reco'd engine.

[yel327]

It is also possible that they did make some more 186's for service engines (or even as shorts) at the time the CK prefixed XU1's engines were made. I guess by that time they'd have had an idea of how many they were likely to need. It doesn't answer the existance of Mike's 1972 cast 186 though, and I guess if they could make some for the LC then they could make the odd one if they needed it once stockpiled stuff ran out.

Edited by yel327, 05 December 2012 - 11:13 AM.

[S pack]

It is also possible that they did make some more 186's for service engines (or even as shorts) at the time the CK prefixed XU1's engines were made. I guess by that time they'd have had an idea of how many they were likely to need. It doesn't answer the existance of Mike's 1972 cast 186 though, and I guess if they could make some for the LC then they could make the odd one if they needed it once stockpiled stuff ran out.

I would guess that if Mike has a 186 with a 1972 cast date then they were still making some 186 service engines or short motors in 1972.
I disagree with his assertion though that 202 XU1 service engines were an alternative warranty replacement for LC XU1 built after HQ release.
By the info contained in the July 1971 engine chart the only service engine recommended for LC XU1 was 186 XU1.
It wasn't until the June 1973 engine chart was released that 202 XU1 service engines were mentioned as an alternative replacement for LC XU1 (ie: any LC XU1). By 1973 all LC XU1 were well and truly out of warranty.

So any Dealer could have easily thrown a 202 XU1 service engine in an LC XU1 if the warranty period was over.

Edited by S pack, 05 December 2012 - 05:14 PM.

[yel327]

The fact NK engines exist shows you beyond doubt that service or short 186 XU-1 engines were available for LC XU-1. I imagine if you had an early LC XU-1 that you'd get an NK, I doubt they'd have continued supplying 3100N shorts or service engines alongside NK examples unless there were some old stock ones about.
It is also wierd that the 7/71 letter states that 202's are not suitable for 186 powered cars, unless they are referring to HR? The fact that HG's were supplied new for a 6 month period with 202's sort of flys in the face of that. The only possibile reason I can think of is there was a few Engineered items different that were needed to fit a 202 into a HK-HG that were on the 202 powered HG commercials. That or there were no more production sumps and pickups available and all that were left were all on service 186 engines built prior to the changeover to 202 - seems pretty silly though. Only other thing I can think of is was the back of the 149/161/179/186 crank different to accept a powerglide transmission like (I have recently found out) a 308 TH350/400 crank is supposedly slightly differmet to a manual or trimatic crankshaft?

[yel327]

I think I have seen one too, it was a 186NxxxxS block. Not sure when it was cast though. I have also seen a 308NxxxxS which was defintely a 1972 cast block. I've been thinking and I reckon the 186 service engines post HQ release were probably stockpiled engines, and any with late date codes were probably Nasco short engines as stuff for service engines was to all intents and purposes obsolete by the end of 1971, so sumps, heads etc but they could build a short motor using 173 crank in a differently machined 202 style block. Any other specialty stuff for HG's built post HQ release (so local commercials and the Chev SS's built in South Africa) all appear to be stockpiled items, like HG style trimatics, 253/308 engines etc.

[S pack]

I reckon what they meant is '202 service engines are not to be used to service models made before HQ release'. As the 202 was used in HG commercial vehicles that were made after HQ release and up until the HQ commercial vehicle range came on stream, then the 186 replacement only policy for these HG's would not have applied.

The way I figure it, in a nutshell is, in 1971 they are saying if the vehicle wasn't originally fitted with a 202 engine then you can't or shouldn't fit a 202 as a service replacement. Which leads me to believe 186 service engines were readily available at that time and Nasco stocks of 186 engines were held in sufficient quantities or production of 186 engines was to continue into the future.

[S pack]

I cannot offer to show them the 202 LC warranty replacement engine as it is not mine, but otherwise how do you account for JP engines with five digit numbers lower than 101000 and dated September 1971? I know of two now.

Mike

September 1971 may be when production of the 202 XU1 engines commenced for the 1st 200 LJ XU1's.
There are a number of JP engines on the warranty service records that have a 5 digit engine number, unless of course these engine numbers were simply typo's.

I know of one JP block that was cast in December 71 and was fitted to a March 72 XU1. That's 4 months between manufacture to installation.

[yel327]

If the engines were built prior to the HQ engine sequence reaching 100000 then they'll be 5 digits. Easy!

Mike, the Nasco sequence for early engines continued until the last one was supplied. The 308N that a friend has is late 1972.

Holden parts books do list short engines and service engines prior to HQ, the 7/68 yellow HK book has both. AFAIK a service engine is a long motor.

Stockpiling engines or transmissions no longer in manufacture was the normal way GMH did it. They would have known exactly how many HG commercials they intended to build post HQ and they would have kept sufficient trimatics and 263/308 for the job. Common sense telss you that a certain stock of Nasco short engines and service engines would be required too for the warranty period of the last HG's with 186 or 161. Yes they may have built a few more to order after that, but there would be stock on hand until at least (I would guess) until 12 months afterwards (for warranty).

[S pack]

I know short engines were available prior to HK, it was mainly the listing of the service engines that I was asking about.
I don't have the earliest yellow HK parts book that is why I was unable to find the service engines, by the next print in April 72 ( blue book ) they must have already dropped the service engines.

The XU-1 seems to be another example where batches of; radiators, gearboxes, brake boosters and some other specific parts were ordered in and stored until all that batch was completed, an indication of this is the date codes on these componets.

As the Homologation was a parts Homologation, is it possible that some of the 200 early LJ engines ended up in warranty replacement LC XU-1's? this pattern seems to have been evident in the late LJ too.

Mike

Any 202 XU1 engines that were used as warranty replacements in LC XU1's (if that actually ever happened) or LJ XU1's would have to have been produced in excess of production line requirements.

[yel327]

They'd be Nasco supplied NP pefix as well.