Well my monaro is going alot slower than id have hoped. The whole car has been bare metaled after 60+++ hours of sanding and wire brushing, and im worried about the area's that have had surface rust growing on them which has caused light pitting from years of sitting in a paddoc. I've wire brushed these area's then hit it with the DA sander but im still left with a dark stain left in the metal. Will these area's start to rust again once there sealed with 2k primer/paint, is there anything i should do to the area's before the primer goes on? Atm i've just given the car a light coat of 2k primer to keep the moisture out while i stuff around with a couple of repairs that need doing.
Painting over wire brushed/sanded surface rust.
Started by
_jabba_
, May 21 2006 10:42 PM
24 replies to this topic
#2
_CHOPPER_
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Posted 21 May 2006 - 10:51 PM
As you would know, if left the primer will start to absorb moisture. If it's going to be sitting for a while before it gets paint, I'd be looking at throwing on some rust converter rather than primer.
#3
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Posted 21 May 2006 - 11:07 PM
So just brush the whole car in rust converter? That will keep future surface rust at bay for a month or two? Sounds good to me.
#4
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Posted 21 May 2006 - 11:23 PM
Assuming it's in an enclosed garage rather than under a carport, yes. The brand I'm using seems to be working OK. If I can find the bottle, I'll post the brand. However, I spoke to a paint supply place a few weeks ago and his response was there isn't much difference between brands if it's only used as a temporary measure against rust.
#5
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Posted 22 May 2006 - 12:04 AM
I personally would have used the rust converter prior to painting on the primer, but i'm guessing you were concerned about preserving the good steel that was left and painted the primer on etc.
I'd use a rust converter on the pitted area's like the directions on the bottle say, then reprime the areas or...if you want to leave it all in bare metal...
Most rust converters can also be used as metal conditioners, usually they have the directions on the bottle on how to do it, i think a couple of other guys mentioned this process in another thread but you dilute the rust converter with water, apply it with a rag, wipe it off with a clean rag damped (not soaked) in water, then follow that with a rag soaked in methylated spirits then dry with a clean rag.
I used this process on a Hilux tray that I'm working on for my brother and even with a humid climate we normally enjoy here in QLD, NO surface rust has formed in months and even the part where i've welded a rust repair patch into is yet to surface rust. This is being stored in an enclosed steel shed.
I'd use a rust converter on the pitted area's like the directions on the bottle say, then reprime the areas or...if you want to leave it all in bare metal...
Most rust converters can also be used as metal conditioners, usually they have the directions on the bottle on how to do it, i think a couple of other guys mentioned this process in another thread but you dilute the rust converter with water, apply it with a rag, wipe it off with a clean rag damped (not soaked) in water, then follow that with a rag soaked in methylated spirits then dry with a clean rag.
I used this process on a Hilux tray that I'm working on for my brother and even with a humid climate we normally enjoy here in QLD, NO surface rust has formed in months and even the part where i've welded a rust repair patch into is yet to surface rust. This is being stored in an enclosed steel shed.
#6
rodomo
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Posted 22 May 2006 - 12:11 AM
I have a bottle and the brand is cabot's, chopper won't find his, he probably drank it. 
#7
_jabba_
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Posted 22 May 2006 - 12:18 AM
The car is under a carport so its in no way ideal conditions, *lucky* we dont see much rain and im inland so moisture isnt to much of a problem. I have a bottle of rust converter here, it says i can water it down and to dampen the surface before brushing/wiping/spraying it on. When the rust repairs are done it sounds like the best thing to do is sand off the thin coat of primer i put down and wipe it over with rust converter 
.
The last thing i want is for rust to bubble up all over the roof where there was surface rust, easyer to fix now rather than later!
.The last thing i want is for rust to bubble up all over the roof where there was surface rust, easyer to fix now rather than later!
Edited by jabba, 22 May 2006 - 12:18 AM.
#8
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Posted 22 May 2006 - 01:06 AM
I used Fertan rust converter and it works well, got it from auto traders about $40 for 1/2 litre, checkout there website there's plenty of info about it on there.
Cheers Chris
Fertan rust convertrr
Cheers Chris
Fertan rust convertrr
#9
makka
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Posted 22 May 2006 - 03:28 PM
I have used the Rainex rust converter and it has worked well for me
#10
_Yella SLuR_
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Posted 22 May 2006 - 04:11 PM
I just keep WD40 up to it till I'm ready to paint, then wax & grease remover it all off before painting.
#11
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Posted 22 May 2006 - 04:58 PM
I didnt like the idea of spraying oil type products onto the metal, i thought it may still give headaches even after wax and greese remover?
#12
makka
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Posted 22 May 2006 - 05:00 PM
wd isnt really a oil product in the grand scheme of things, wax and grease remover is good stuff
#13
_big chris_
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Posted 22 May 2006 - 05:17 PM
Hey,
there are other useful products to remove the rust "shadow"
one I have used at work is called "deoxidine"
is some kind of acid based product,
cleans the metal up like new,
prepsol,
then use EP over that,
In areas of bad rust may have to apply several times to get the blue colour of new steel.
there are other useful products to remove the rust "shadow"
one I have used at work is called "deoxidine"
is some kind of acid based product,
cleans the metal up like new,
prepsol,
then use EP over that,
In areas of bad rust may have to apply several times to get the blue colour of new steel.
#14
_Oldn64_
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Posted 22 May 2006 - 11:02 PM
I too have used rainex and is teh prefered one too use. Just remember to wear gloves. what you are actually doing is giving teh car a checmical reaction on its surface etc. Basically if you can keep the air and moistor out of teh metal then it will sit there all of its life without rusting. this is what the convertors can do, seal the panel off from air and moisture.
Cheers
Cheers
#15
_Yella SLuR_
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Posted 22 May 2006 - 11:17 PM
^ I think that is only in the text books Oldn. My poor ole sheet metal wheel chock I polished up all nice and shiny. Wasn't supposed to rust, but has.
Yeah, WD40 is not oil based. Dunno what it is, and only 4 people in the world know what's really in it. Prolly cat piss. Think it was developed by the US Army to stop rifle bores from rusting or something like that. Some of our defence dudes might know more. Was an interesting email going round about all the things you can use WD40 for.
Hubcap I made at tech 3-4 years ago is sprayed with it, and rust is still minimal.
Yeah, WD40 is not oil based. Dunno what it is, and only 4 people in the world know what's really in it. Prolly cat piss. Think it was developed by the US Army to stop rifle bores from rusting or something like that. Some of our defence dudes might know more. Was an interesting email going round about all the things you can use WD40 for.
Hubcap I made at tech 3-4 years ago is sprayed with it, and rust is still minimal.
#16
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Posted 22 May 2006 - 11:17 PM
Great info thanks guys, the rust converter i have is called 'rustcheater'. I gave it ago in a small area and the rust converter had a reaction with the dark patches of metal and went a blueie green colour so far, i havent checked it again but it should go black eventually. The bottle says it seals the panel and can be painted over so ill see how that goes at keeping the rust at bay, otherwise wd40 sounds like another good temp option!
<edit> gloves would have been very smart, my fingers went green and now black and its extreemly hard to get off... opps haha.
<edit> gloves would have been very smart, my fingers went green and now black and its extreemly hard to get off... opps haha.
Edited by jabba, 22 May 2006 - 11:20 PM.
#18
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Posted 22 May 2006 - 11:28 PM
ROFL, well I guess you learnt the hard way. Never mind, someone else will benefit from your new found knowledge.<edit> gloves would have been very smart, my fingers went green and now black and its extreemly hard to get off... opps haha.
Yella, yes it is a little more scientific than that. I could actually tell you why it rusted but I think I would place everyone here to sleep not to mention the fact that the post would end up about 50 pages long.
Cheers
#19
makka
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Posted 23 May 2006 - 12:42 PM
hey Jabba, I like the one
"Spray on Twister game for more fun"
haha that would be a laugh!
"Spray on Twister game for more fun"
haha that would be a laugh!
#20
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Posted 23 May 2006 - 04:34 PM
Its all a nice learning curve hahaha, i really should buy a box of disposable gloves.ROFL, well I guess you learnt the hard way. Never mind, someone else will benefit from your new found knowledge.
hey Jabba, I like the one
"Spray on Twister game for more fun"
haha that would be a laugh!
haha, only if its played by hot unclothed women
.
Edited by jabba, 23 May 2006 - 04:35 PM.
#21
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Posted 29 May 2006 - 10:55 PM
the rust converters are to be used within a couple of hours of priming, you will get rust, it may not be visible but it could cuse problems later. I am also building a car in the drivewayI was unaware when I started but if you use epoxy primer you can leave the car exposed much longer than normal primers, you can strip a panel and put the primer on, then at a later date you can apply your filler over the top of the epoxy primer. This would sure make it easier for a project being done without the luxury of a big shed were other primers would soak moisture, the advantage here with the filler being able to go over the top is that you dont have to worry about trying to get a panel perfect before the afternoon chill hits and its too late to put the primer on wich then means you have to worry about the filler absorbing moisture over night.
You can get this from better paint suppliers like ppg, they have a cheaper label that is made by ppg, cant remember the name but it is more than adequate.
If you are wondering if its good enough for your car dont worry, mercedes benz and bmw require epoxy primer to be used on all bare metal repairs to keep the warranty on the paint valid.
I dont know if this is the proper procedure but it works for me.(using normal 2k etch and hs primer)
When I use acid (rust convertor) I use it straight on any bad spots after they are sanded the best they can be, let it sit till white starts to appear then I get a wet rag and a dry rag and wipe it wet then imediately dry.
I then do the whole panel with a diluted mix (for conditioning), wipe it with a wet rag again imediately followed by a dry one, the repeat the wet and dry wipe, then wipe it with metho to remove any moisture left behind, If you rub your palm over the panel and feel sticky spots there is acid still on the panel, it needs to come of.
if there is any trace of pwdery stuff I give it a quick rub with a cheapo scourer(handy things to have around new) then wipe it with wax and grease remover followed by a dry lint free rag then if needed I apply filler but before filler you should ruogh the metal with 40 grit or a quick lite rattle with the grinder, try to be quick with the filler as the metal should be primed within 2 hours of the acid. its also a good idea to use a fibreglass filler on all welded repairs as it doesnt absorb the moisture through pinholes in the welds that could spread through your plastic filler when the car is finnished. once the filler is rubbed out wax & grease again and put a light coat of etch on the bare steel but try to dodge the bog, the etch shouldnt be on the bog, once the etch is done follow it up with your high solids primer all over the panel.
metal should have blue and yellow tinges but if its more orange you may have had it to wet with water for to long or not enough acid, you will need to repeat the acid process.
I also avoid wd 40 as I had a problem with it even after thourough wax & grease remover and ended up stripping my firewal to start again
You can get this from better paint suppliers like ppg, they have a cheaper label that is made by ppg, cant remember the name but it is more than adequate.
If you are wondering if its good enough for your car dont worry, mercedes benz and bmw require epoxy primer to be used on all bare metal repairs to keep the warranty on the paint valid.
I dont know if this is the proper procedure but it works for me.(using normal 2k etch and hs primer)
When I use acid (rust convertor) I use it straight on any bad spots after they are sanded the best they can be, let it sit till white starts to appear then I get a wet rag and a dry rag and wipe it wet then imediately dry.
I then do the whole panel with a diluted mix (for conditioning), wipe it with a wet rag again imediately followed by a dry one, the repeat the wet and dry wipe, then wipe it with metho to remove any moisture left behind, If you rub your palm over the panel and feel sticky spots there is acid still on the panel, it needs to come of.
if there is any trace of pwdery stuff I give it a quick rub with a cheapo scourer(handy things to have around new) then wipe it with wax and grease remover followed by a dry lint free rag then if needed I apply filler but before filler you should ruogh the metal with 40 grit or a quick lite rattle with the grinder, try to be quick with the filler as the metal should be primed within 2 hours of the acid. its also a good idea to use a fibreglass filler on all welded repairs as it doesnt absorb the moisture through pinholes in the welds that could spread through your plastic filler when the car is finnished. once the filler is rubbed out wax & grease again and put a light coat of etch on the bare steel but try to dodge the bog, the etch shouldnt be on the bog, once the etch is done follow it up with your high solids primer all over the panel.
metal should have blue and yellow tinges but if its more orange you may have had it to wet with water for to long or not enough acid, you will need to repeat the acid process.
I also avoid wd 40 as I had a problem with it even after thourough wax & grease remover and ended up stripping my firewal to start again
#22
_micksgtr_
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Posted 31 May 2006 - 09:11 PM
g'day,
all the big frabrication companies i deal with use a HICHEM roduct which is a zinc primer, basically a think primer and rust kill in 1, you'll buy from me about 20L for around 70 bucks plus ya gst. some of these guys have things sitting outside for years, even the life of the machine or tool or steel supply. i also sell this same product to proaxle to rob lang and the guys at pavtek. just my thoughts
cheers
all the big frabrication companies i deal with use a HICHEM roduct which is a zinc primer, basically a think primer and rust kill in 1, you'll buy from me about 20L for around 70 bucks plus ya gst. some of these guys have things sitting outside for years, even the life of the machine or tool or steel supply. i also sell this same product to proaxle to rob lang and the guys at pavtek. just my thoughts
cheers
#23
_jabba_
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Posted 03 June 2006 - 09:32 AM
I looked around the hichem website and i cant find anything that says it kills rust and primes, just a few different kinds of primers.
Thanks
Damien
Thanks
Damien
#24
_micksgtr_
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Posted 04 June 2006 - 04:10 PM
http://www.hichem.co.....l primers.htm
use either the structral primer, cold gal or the super etch primer,
they may be in the "primer" section but they are rust killing and protection items, they also have another product called rust not, trust me this stuff is awesome, can come out a spray can and if ur good will come out like 2pac, also kills and protects from rust.
hope this helps
cheers
use either the structral primer, cold gal or the super etch primer,
they may be in the "primer" section but they are rust killing and protection items, they also have another product called rust not, trust me this stuff is awesome, can come out a spray can and if ur good will come out like 2pac, also kills and protects from rust.
hope this helps
cheers
#25
_micksgtr_
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Posted 04 June 2006 - 04:12 PM
also try something on the galmet website, also make some great products
cheers
cheers
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