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L34 and A9X 308 HP figures

Started by _CHOPPER_ , Sep 07 2011 01:07 PM

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#26 _LXSS350_

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 10:25 PM

I have a pre 27a non-taxi version as well. There was about 50,000 LX's produced with 8500 of those LX's not being for paying passengers purposes. :P:P:P

#27 VIXL34s

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 10:58 PM

The only way to do a fair comparison is get a time machine, go back and buy a new L34, new SLR5000 and a new A9X. Blokes with great memories of over 30 years ago still go on today about how good the L34 was engine wise, and it was, but not off the factory floor. Take it home tune it fit a decent exhaust and aircleaner and it went better, certainly nothing close to the 350hp suggested by some people. Do the same thing to an A9X engine, the performance wouldn't be there, simple. Fact is it's a lot easier to modify an A9X engine up to make it go than it is to slot a 10 bolt diff and rear discs into an L34.

1975 where were you red,how old were you? been here before. march 75 i bought out of showroom brand new L34 garanteed by word of the salesman whose name i do know and he lives in gawler SA, that car would DO 143 MPH. IT did and abit more, stock. i can tell you that any stock 308 of that time could not stay with that stock l34, some did try,i was there, where were you? there was a dynotune called adelaide autotune on fullarton road where i used to go and they told me they thought it/she was putting out about 320 HP

#28 _LXSS350_

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 12:14 AM

Even with the 2.78 ratio banjo diff your doing 26mph (48kph) per 1000rpm so at 4800rpm your doing 125mph (202kph) which is peak power. A big part of Torana's folklore was having a very optomistic speedo and taco readings. Depending on options it was common that Torana's where optimistically (while doing top speed runs) reading 20kph and 550rpm higher than actual speeds. 308's by design flaws hated anything above 5000rpm's and that's why they commonly threw a leg out of bed even on the heavily reworked HDT factory cars. Of course 2.78 gearing meant 16sec+ 1/4 mile times so not great for light to light street fights and it took forever to get to 200kph. Standard factory L34's took 25.2 sec to reach 100mph with the 2.78 gearing. My toyota corolla is faster.

Edited by LXSS350, 26 September 2011 - 12:16 AM.

#29 REDA9X

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 09:30 AM


The only way to do a fair comparison is get a time machine, go back and buy a new L34, new SLR5000 and a new A9X. Blokes with great memories of over 30 years ago still go on today about how good the L34 was engine wise, and it was, but not off the factory floor. Take it home tune it fit a decent exhaust and aircleaner and it went better, certainly nothing close to the 350hp suggested by some people. Do the same thing to an A9X engine, the performance wouldn't be there, simple. Fact is it's a lot easier to modify an A9X engine up to make it go than it is to slot a 10 bolt diff and rear discs into an L34.

1975 where were you red,how old were you? been here before. march 75 i bought out of showroom brand new L34 garanteed by word of the salesman whose name i do know and he lives in gawler SA, that car would DO 143 MPH. IT did and abit more, stock. i can tell you that any stock 308 of that time could not stay with that stock l34, some did try,i was there, where were you? there was a dynotune called adelaide autotune on fullarton road where i used to go and they told me they thought it/she was putting out about 320 HP


I might not have been old enough to drive the things in 1974, but if you were old enough to, and it's now 35 years later, how good's your memory! Even brock sat there in 2004 at bathurst and told us all the A9X ran the 2.60 diff at bathurst, which it didn't. Show me the dyno printout and prove to me the car had absolutely NOTHING done to it after it left the showroom floor. 320hp, Harry's best HDT engines were producing 350hp. I have no doubt whtsoever if you lined a stock L34 up against a stock SLR5000 of the day, got them on a straight road and had a pure drag race the L34 would pull away, but it's been proved there was nothing in it over that 1/4 mile drag. Don Holland is not far away, I'd be interested to see how good his memory is after 35 years.

#30 _LXSS350_

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 10:37 AM

Ive had and loved Torana's all my life, no way was the stock L34 that special. Honestly it was lucky to do 200kph even if tuned and blueprinted to the ninth degree. Back in about 1978 a good friend (seduced by the dark side) had from brand new a very stock and very original Phase3. (Fraud) :Headbang2:

As youths we where right into speed and the typical GMH vs Fraud arguments. Part of that was doing lots of skids and going down to Ravenswood for street meets to prove who's car was faster. Before country radar we would often do top speed runs out into the country. We tried everything up against that Fat Fraud from SLR's,L34's,A9X's and no way in hell could we go as fast as him. In the end it took me a worked 350 chev (380hp), M22 rockcrusher, 9" LSD with 3.25 gearing before I could finally pass him (which in 79 I put into my SS hatch)

Because of the wildly inaccurate Torana speedo/tacho the key is that we knew his Fraud was hitting its 6150rpm limiter in top gear, so we knew he was doing 227kph. We also know it did 0-160kph in about 15.2seconds and 1/4 mile times of around the low to mid 14 second range.

I hate to say it (GOD FORGIVE MY SINS) but no way was any factory road torana anywhere near as fast as the 227kph factory Fraud.:dontknow::dontknow:

Edited by LXSS350, 26 September 2011 - 10:38 AM.

#31 _Herne_

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 11:27 AM

snip

I hate to say it (GOD FORGIVE MY SINS) but no way was any factory road torana anywhere near as fast as the 227kph factory Fraud.:dontknow::dontknow:


Agree, and I was there driving all sorts of cars owned by myself and friends. (age now 64)

Cheers
Herne

#32 _LH8VD69_

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 02:33 PM

Hmmm I can't argue about what was faster than why but I do know for a fact my 76 SLR 5000 back in 1990 used to pull 210 and was verified by another speedo in a VN 5 litre Calais at the time. It was bog stock I later found out when it blew up and was stripped down.

#33 _chrome yella_

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 03:02 PM

when my L34 was 100% stock and had 130000km on the clock, with stock cam,exhausts, it would willingly rev to 5,500rpm
in each gear except 4th where it would rev to 5,200 to 5,300 on a nice long straight, it has a 2.78 diff and the
tacho was tested to be 50rpm optimistic, also had my hj monaro tested and it was 50rpm positive at 6,000rpm and my
old HQgts4 was tested at 6,500rpm and was 150rpm positive, so either i was lucky or gmh tachos are not really to bad

#34 Bazza

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 03:04 PM

Hi all

I don't know the origin of this chart, but it has the '76 LX SS winning any 'shoot-out", but there is no mention of the L34.

Cheers

Bazza

Attached Files


#35 Dr Terry

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 03:24 PM

It looks like something out of a motoring magazine, look at the number of errors.

LH SL/R5000 & LX SS 5.0 have a 4 barrel Stromberg !!!, while the A9X had a Holley !!!

Also the A9X apparently had 9.7 compression.

About the only things they did get correct (which most get wrong) is the comp ratio & kW figures for the LH SL/R5000 & LX SS.

Dr Terry

#36 _LXSS350_

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 07:01 PM

Its a rehash of wheels and sports car world road tests except whoever did it cant copy well and did no factual checking. Besides the obvious carby mistakes etc in producing that chart, its clear they have used figures from different tests that had different rear ratio's and gearboxes. They have then taken the best results even though getting a better top speed meant the 1/4 mile time suffered. Top speeds look about right but clarity of rear end ratio is totally lacking.

Going through my old magazines pulled some interesting facts. These are not pub talk or misty memories from my failing memory.

Speedo and Tacho inaccuracies varied across brands,models and gearbox/axle ratio's.

For instance in the 1977 Wheels test to find the Fastest Australian production car the HX GTS was showing 12kph and 500rpm fast at indicated top of 190kph @ 5500rpm, Ford GXL was 7kph and 100rpm fast at indicated top of 204kph @ 4700rpm, SS Torana was 20kph and 550rpm fast at indicated top of 197kph @ 5250rpm, Charger was 8kph and 0rpm fast at indicated top of 187kph @ 4300rpm.

In the Nov 1972 test of all versions of the HQ GTS4 the speedo accuracy varied depending on options
With 100 Mph showing on the speedo:

350ci/Manual actual was 89 Mph
350ci/Auto actual was 102 Mph
308ci/Manual actual was 90 Mph
253ci/Manual actual was 96 Mph

Wheels mag tested the HJ GTS (coupe) with an M21 and 3.36 lsd. It recorded a top speed of 188 kph (117Mph) and fastest 1/4 mile time of 16.3sec. Of course changing to 3.08 would have given a higher top speed but been slower over the 1/4 mile time.

In 1978 Wheels took the HZ GTS and Fraud GXL 5.8 for its King of the Hill shootout and the GTS recorded a top speed of 187 Kph and 1/4 mile of 16.8 sec, the Fraud recorded a top speed of 189 Kph and 1/4 mile of 16.3 sec. GTS used a 3.36 ratio and the fat Fraud used the 2.92 ratio (final drive).


So ends the waffle and getting to the point I want to make:
At the end of the day there where absolutely no factory 130 Mph Torana's no matter what fairy tale the salesman or a mate at the pub told.

The A9X was the fastest torrie with its tall 2.6 gearing at a corrected top speed of 206 Kph.
All the rest is just fantasy and too many drinks resulting in brain fade. LOL :lol:

#37 REDA9X

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 07:08 PM

Yep, agreed, I'll take road tested facts over faded memories

#38 _LXSS350_

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 07:19 PM

Hi all

I don't know the origin of this chart, but it has the '76 LX SS winning any 'shoot-out", but there is no mention of the L34.

Cheers

Bazza

One more thing I just picked up was the 1/4 mile time of 15.6sec for the SS 5litre actually belongs to the LJ XU-1 and it should be 16 sec for the SS 5litre. Seems the re-print editor had some brain fade in double checking the numbers he transferred. But overall the figures look in the ball park of actual tests conducted at the time of the cars release.

#39 _Herne_

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 07:50 PM


Hi all

I don't know the origin of this chart, but it has the '76 LX SS winning any 'shoot-out", but there is no mention of the L34.

Cheers

Bazza

One more thing I just picked up was the 1/4 mile time of 15.6sec for the SS 5litre actually belongs to the LJ XU-1 and it should be 16 sec for the SS 5litre. Seems the re-print editor had some brain fade in double checking the numbers he transferred. But overall the figures look in the ball park of actual tests conducted at the time of the cars release.

At the time on the day the figure I recall was 15.9 sec quarter mile... How do I remember this?? because my modified Isuzu Bellet pulled identical times.... When the first gold coloured GT falcons arrived on the scene with the 289 engine I used to blow them away...

Herne

#40 _LXSS350_

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 08:13 PM

Several tests of the XU-1 where done. No doubt conditions and driver ability play a part in any variations, but that 15.6 was recorded when Wheels mag put it up against the overweight XA 302 manual Hardtop Superbird. In that test the Fraud top speed was 112 Mph @ 4500rpm and 1/4 mile of 16.9sec. The XU-1 top speed was 123 Mph @ 6000rpm. No official LX test ever did the 1/4 in 15.6sec so it seems obvious that was wrongly recorded in the chart shown in this thread.

Certainly not going to argue that 1/2 a second here or 5kph there variations didn't happen in road tests. However the crux of the matter is the relative times are on the mark for the models we are discussing. No way was there ever say a 15.1 sec factory Torana or a 130Mph factory Torana. We can get pedantic as we like but its the wild stories that need to be put to bed not any minor variations.

The XU-1 they used was Queensland licensed as PWH 161

Edited by LXSS350, 26 September 2011 - 08:16 PM.

#41 _LXSS350_

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 10:14 AM

At the time on the day the figure I recall was 15.9 sec quarter mile... How do I remember this?? because my modified Isuzu Bellet pulled identical times.... When the first gold coloured GT falcons arrived on the scene with the 289 engine I used to blow them away...

Herne


Just to follow up this I found some more old mags and Sports Car World did a lone car review on the LJ XU-1. They reported a best 1/4 mile time of 15.8 sec. However in it they mention the car had a flat spot between 3000-3500rpm which had restricted the 1/4 mile time. They estimate with the flat spot gone the car would be capable of a 15.5sec time. Speedo was reading 125 mph when corrected top speed was 123 mph.

Its also clear that besides top speeds much of the performance figures in that chart have been recorded wrong.

Boy I have not read most of these mags for decades. Seeing the old tests of HG/HK327/350's,E38's,E49's,Nagari,GTHO's etc really gets me sentimental. Love the simplicity and ease of repair - hot-rodding. Each car is just so different and unique. Its so unlike today's rubbish where holden/fraud's all just look identical (just plain boring).

#42 _outer control_

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 05:44 PM

Yep, agreed, I'll take road tested facts over faded memories


I remember driving an A9X around Baskerville a few years back ,not even 1 lap and rockers filled with oil and PVC valve suck oil into carby back off to let oil into sump then back on pedal not good and you were there if my memory is correct.That was standard factory set up no faded memories i hope.

Edited by outer control, 29 September 2011 - 05:45 PM.

#43 _outer control_

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 05:54 PM


The only way to do a fair comparison is get a time machine, go back and buy a new L34, new SLR5000 and a new A9X. Blokes with great memories of over 30 years ago still go on today about how good the L34 was engine wise, and it was, but not off the factory floor. Take it home tune it fit a decent exhaust and aircleaner and it went better, certainly nothing close to the 350hp suggested by some people. Do the same thing to an A9X engine, the performance wouldn't be there, simple. Fact is it's a lot easier to modify an A9X engine up to make it go than it is to slot a 10 bolt diff and rear discs into an L34.

1975 where were you red,how old were you? been here before. march 75 i bought out of showroom brand new L34 garanteed by word of the salesman whose name i do know and he lives in gawler SA, that car would DO 143 MPH. IT did and abit more, stock. i can tell you that any stock 308 of that time could not stay with that stock l34, some did try,i was there, where were you? there was a dynotune called adelaide autotune on fullarton road where i used to go and they told me they thought it/she was putting out about 320 HP


I remember hearing years ago about 2 brothers on west coast one a pilot the other had a L34.They used to go to footy one in L34 the other in his plane.
Foke- law has it that they used to race each other home and even thou the plane could travel direct the L34 always won.Apparantly the plane could only do 120 knotts.
You should have lined that L34 up VIX he may have taught you a lesson or two.Do not know if story is correct but i am told it was.

#44 REDA9X

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 07:38 PM


Yep, agreed, I'll take road tested facts over faded memories


I remember driving an A9X around Baskerville a few years back ,not even 1 lap and rockers filled with oil and PVC valve suck oil into carby back off to let oil into sump then back on pedal not good and you were there if my memory is correct.That was standard factory set up no faded memories i hope.


nd I seem to remember saying ages ago on here when this discussion about which is best began a race between a stock L34 and A9X around a track would be a race to see if you could blow up the A9X engine before the L34 blew up it's banjo diff or ran out of brakes.....
I also remember the only A9X smoking that day at Baskerville was your's, and it wasn't being driven half as hard as a couple of the others out there on the day, the yellow hatch in particular and there is nothing special about that engine.

#45 _racer8_

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 07:43 PM

Give me a raw kick in the butt l34 any day, at least you have drive one hard to get the most out of it, good ol, muscle car,(be gentle on those axles though, doh!)



#46 _outer control_

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 09:03 PM



Yep, agreed, I'll take road tested facts over faded memories


I remember driving an A9X around Baskerville a few years back ,not even 1 lap and rockers filled with oil and PVC valve suck oil into carby back off to let oil into sump then back on pedal not good and you were there if my memory is correct.That was standard factory set up no faded memories i hope.


nd I seem to remember saying ages ago on here when this discussion about which is best began a race between a stock L34 and A9X around a track would be a race to see if you could blow up the A9X engine before the L34 blew up it's banjo diff or ran out of brakes.....
I also remember the only A9X smoking that day at Baskerville was your's, and it wasn't being driven half as hard as a couple of the others out there on the day, the yellow hatch in particular and there is nothing special about that engine.

I know the green one had a brookfield sump. You are correct Red i agree with you about what we know about standard sumps

Edited by outer control, 29 September 2011 - 09:05 PM.

#47 REDA9X

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 09:09 PM

Yep, standard sump = crap.

#48 _LXSS350_

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 10:11 PM

308 = POS oiling system = races lost that they should have won :Headbang2:

No wonder we used to put in 350 chevs and kiss all the 308 troubles away.
Back in the day (from new) we used to get them up to 180kph and watch the Batman like smoke screen out the exhaust. They where shocking std engines.

Edited by LXSS350, 29 September 2011 - 10:16 PM.

#49 A9X

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 09:53 AM

nothing to see here, move along

Edited by A9X, 30 September 2011 - 09:59 AM.

#50 _LXSS350_

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 05:45 PM

Many tried Jedi mind tricks on the old 308 but even the mighty Jedi couldn't make them bullet proof at sustained revs.:surrenderwave:
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