116 replies to this topic

[yel327]

I have been told contrary information Grant by those involved at the time. Still needs work though. I was lead to believe it was all JP and NP blocks though, apart from the early ones.

Steel cranks were replaced mid 1967 when GMH opened their new foundry. Not sure on the time when blocks changed but it makes sense it'd be around the same time.

[yel327]

I just found it, April 1967, HR engine number series number 121465 onwards had nodular crankshaft except for X2 and S engines (plus later LC XU-1). X2, S and XU-1 engines used stockpiled forged crankshafts. This info is in Dr Terry's book, which also dates the change from HP for 179 to 179 as 11/64. I'm not certain that 149 appeared on the 149 at the same, especially as AFAIK the early 161 engines were blank also. This shows you how early the 253 and 308 were in development as they were initially blank for 253 and HP for 308. I have no data when the foundry changed for the actual blocks, one of the blokes who worked there did tell me but I can't remember.

[enderwigginau]

It wouldn't surprise me if they wanted high nickel content in the sports engines.....much more flexible than the lo-Ni ones.
It doesn't make financial sense to ship in special hi-nickel ingots though, afaik the change was due to the general lowering of quality of iron available, not a purposeful choice by Holden. Someone will have to chase it up.

It is a fact though, that NO blocks were cast at the Commonwealth Aircraft Factory.
They only worked in funky alloys and cast iron was a bit primitive for them.
They did however have a lot of space, so allowing Holden next door to store stuff on the other side of the gate is reasonable.

Grant..

[yel327]

The only F engines I know of are 179F (HD 179 except X2) and CF (late LC GTR). There is no 186F that I have ever heard of.

I think rope seals came into being late in HQ in V8, 6cyl should be similar.

Evidence of old or development moulds continuing to be used is in the HT V8 engines. HP (308) and blank (253) were in use from the start of HT and both gradually dissapeared. HP and blank were long gone by 1969 on 6cyl so it just shows you the age of the V8 side moulds in 1968/9. HP and 308 were used side by side for a period, probably as new moulds were later added as initial 308 production was confined to the Brougham and would have been ramped up for usage across the HT series once 307's were gone.

I thought the smooth case was confined to HK and HT boxes, and by HQ release they were all ribbed? I've never seen a smooth case 4spd, although it would be possible to make one using an early 2 piece reverse idler. Maybe they did exist and this is where the 2 piece idler came from?

[yel327]

That number wouldn't have been stamped on a 179 HP block though.

[yel327]

HP doesn't just mean 179, it also means 308 so I don't see why you'd have to grind off HP for licencing?? Putting 186 pistons in a 179 is simply rebuilding it, no difference to using oversize pistons. Especially 179 to 186 as it is only 1/16" oversize (about 60 thou).

What next sequential number do you mean?

[enderwigginau]

Byron,
In NSW you couldn't change engines except to the same type unless engineered.
So in that case, if an engine reconditioner was selling change over engines, by law they'd have to be the same type........
So if you turned up at your next rego check with an HP block instead of the 186 in your monaro or torana........well, enough to say you wouldn't be getting your rego renewed.

And I have a block here with HP on it from my old stroker - OMG, is it 179 or a 308 Hehehe, I think I can tell due to two less cylinders........

It is still the case that if you request a price on an oversize piston or other part you'll be quoted more than the same item STD for a different application........

I assume that engine reconditioners and others buying unstamped spare part blocks were probably given a list or start number to use. Replacement blocks weren't always numbered as some warranty replacements were stamped with the original number, which I'm aware happened to some XU-1's.......

Grant..

[yel327]

When are we talking about? I've had cars in NSW since the early 80's and you could do whatever you wanted engine wise as long as it was standard for that series or within a capacity limit. eg you could use a 202 to replace a 186. GMH even published documents do tell you what to use. I've seen thosefor the early 70's when 186's were finished.

Understood oversize pistons are dearer. But simply rebuilding a 179 with 60 thou oversize pistons doesn't mean you'd have to change/remove the casting number on the side of the block and machine off the engine number.

Spare part block and pistons kits were as you say supplied with the original engine number off the target car when fitted by a GMH service centre. Not sure what they did with those that went to others. I doubt GMH supplied an engine number though. Would be an interesting thing to find out though!

[enderwigginau]

Late nineties/early noughties we could not put older blocks in place of newer ones, so no HP in place of 186.......
Moved to QLD and as long as it is red and the same number of cylinders, no problem.......

Grant..

[Dr Terry]

Hi Guys.

Just to add a few points.

Mike, you mentioned that the sequential engine numbers reset at 1001 at HK, they also did this at HD & HQ (& LC Byron ??). Also the point regarding oversized pistons being more expensive than stock is only valid if you're comparing genuine prices. By the time cheap (Japanese & later, Taiwanese) imported engine parts were commonplace by the mid-70s, a common oversize piston & ring set (say 186 + 0.040") could be purchased for less than one genuine std bore piston. Why do you think just aboout every rebuilt 179 & 186 block you see these days, is bored to 186 + 0.040" ?

Regarding concrete mixers & other industrial engines, I hold several GM-H industrial engine catalogues & all the engines listed for sale as complete assemblies used already common prefixes 179F, 186A, 161R etc. etc. No unique prefixes appear.

Byron's point about fitting later/larger engines to earlier cars is correct up to a point. GM-H & NSW DMT (old RTA) published lists of what was allowed to be fitted to what & from memory notable exceptions were, EH, HD, HR, LC & LJ were OK up to 179/186 (plus recond overbore) but required disc brakes before a 202 could be fitted. I'm not sure if the same rules apply today.

Dr Terry

[yel327]

Yes LC got its own sequence which dissapeared at HQ engine release (and exhaustion of existing LC engine stock), after that they and LJ used HQ sequence numbers. Same for HG 6cyl (used HK sequence until HQ engine release).

[S pack]

Have a question,
due to early pollution regulations introduced at the beginning of the HK through the PCV system ( not pvc thats plastic pipeing ) do you think this could effect the use of pre PCV engines in latter vehicles?

Example a 179 or HP would possibly not be permitted in a 1969 vehicle, as technically it was a pre pollution engine by the engine number and a breach of the pollution regs.

MIke

Can't see why there would be a problem fitting a 179 engine to a 1969 model or later as long as it is upgraded to meet the anti pollution regs for the chassis it is being fitted to.

The only difference was the engines produced before the Positive Crankcase Ventilation valve was introduced had a breather tube. Simply discard the breather tube and install a PCV valve and an inlet manifold with the extra connection for the PCV hose.