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Low oil pressure
Started by
_WYLDLC6_
, Dec 27 2011 07:49 AM
139 replies to this topic
#76
orangeLJ
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Posted 13 January 2012 - 01:33 PM
#77
_WYLDLC6_
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Posted 13 January 2012 - 03:50 PM
Changed sump and pickup, no different.
Any other suggestions.
Chris
Any other suggestions.
Chris
#78
Lima31
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#79
ls2lxhatch
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Posted 13 January 2012 - 04:16 PM
Can you get hold of a known working pump with an external pickup to try on your engine?
That would rule out the oil pump and pickup in one.
That would rule out the oil pump and pickup in one.
#80
_WYLDLC6_
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Posted 13 January 2012 - 04:24 PM
Ive tried 3 pumps, 2 sumps, 2 pickups, engine had all bearings and tollerences checked twice, pressure tested block and changed crankshaft.
I dont know what else i can do.
I know the block was good as i'd used it on my last engine with no problems.
Actually over it.
I dont know what else i can do.
I know the block was good as i'd used it on my last engine with no problems.
Actually over it.
#82
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Posted 13 January 2012 - 05:14 PM
Seems like just about everthing has been covered except for cam bearings?
#83
_WYLDLC6_
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Posted 13 January 2012 - 05:52 PM
Done those, been checked twice.
Cheers chris
Cheers chris
#84
_Bomber Watson_
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Posted 13 January 2012 - 07:51 PM
Its not a fault with the block, certain???
I ask because a lad i know is going thorugh this exact issue, after months of frOcking around with professional engine builders/machine shops screwing him around they have wiped there hands clean of his engine and he has come to me to build him one..........
Only thing we can think of is that perhaps theres a hariline crack in the block somewhere near an oil journal that opens up when the engine reaches operating temperature.
This particular block has been on an "oil dyno", a rig kinda thing that pumps oil through the block to check for leakages, and come up perfect, everything else is spot on as you say, just when it reaches operating temperature the oil pressure drops to 0 at idle. They do not warm the block to operating temperature during the test, which i think is wrong.
Were starting with another block when we get around to doing this, i've convinced him of that, and i'll be inspecting his old block VERY closely, if i can find anything he will be going to small claims court.
Just thought perhaps you should check your block again, never know, the machine shop may have dropped it during the latest build or something stupid like that.
Cheers.
I ask because a lad i know is going thorugh this exact issue, after months of frOcking around with professional engine builders/machine shops screwing him around they have wiped there hands clean of his engine and he has come to me to build him one..........
Only thing we can think of is that perhaps theres a hariline crack in the block somewhere near an oil journal that opens up when the engine reaches operating temperature.
This particular block has been on an "oil dyno", a rig kinda thing that pumps oil through the block to check for leakages, and come up perfect, everything else is spot on as you say, just when it reaches operating temperature the oil pressure drops to 0 at idle. They do not warm the block to operating temperature during the test, which i think is wrong.
Were starting with another block when we get around to doing this, i've convinced him of that, and i'll be inspecting his old block VERY closely, if i can find anything he will be going to small claims court.
Just thought perhaps you should check your block again, never know, the machine shop may have dropped it during the latest build or something stupid like that.
Cheers.
Edited by Bomber Watson, 13 January 2012 - 07:52 PM.
#85
originalglenn
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Posted 13 January 2012 - 08:27 PM
dont think this has been asked what oil you using?
#86
_Bomber Watson_
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Posted 13 January 2012 - 09:07 PM
Im using hpr 40.
First page.
#87
_CraigA_
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Posted 13 January 2012 - 09:08 PM
Which specs, im not sure of tollerences but its got 11.1 comp, solid cam 535 lift 320 dur 1.5 rockers, lots of headwork should make around 280 hp.
It has a brand new standard oil pump. Ive tried shimming the pump and its made no difference. Engine builder put a new crank in this time.
Im using hpr 40.
^^^
Penrite HPR40
I use this oil in a 202 with a standard pump and external pickup and get about 15psi idle hot and about 40-50psi running at speed.
Certainly a strange and frustrating problem :(
#88
_threeblindmice_
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Posted 13 January 2012 - 09:38 PM
I had one of the oil gallery welsh plugs pop out once , been OK for over a year after being reconed , then after a couple of hard reving days ,it lost oil pressure down to a couple of pound , couldn't find major bearing damage ,only the effect from the low oil pressure , so had to pull cam out to check cam bearings , as I slid the cam out this fell out , must have not been a tight fit or notched in .
#89
_WYLDLC6_
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Posted 14 January 2012 - 09:22 AM
Thanks bomber, i have thought about a hairline crack but i dont know how that would just appear. I doubt that the engine builder would have dropped it as he is just as frustrated as i am about it, and he would have considered that if it had happened.
Im not sure which direction to go with this now as the mechanic said that he cant justify the expense of prepping another block after the time spent so far.
With other expenses that i have aswell i cant justify it either.
Pretty shit situation atm.
Cheers chris.
Im not sure which direction to go with this now as the mechanic said that he cant justify the expense of prepping another block after the time spent so far.
With other expenses that i have aswell i cant justify it either.
Pretty shit situation atm.
Cheers chris.
#90
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Posted 14 January 2012 - 12:30 PM
could be cracked through the lifter bores to the sideplate oil drains.
take the sideplates off and start er up to see if you somehow have a dodgy set of solid lifters, worth a try, youve looked at everything else
take the sideplates off and start er up to see if you somehow have a dodgy set of solid lifters, worth a try, youve looked at everything else
Edited by greens nice, 14 January 2012 - 12:30 PM.
#91
_oldjohnno_
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Posted 14 January 2012 - 07:57 PM
Mate I've been in situations like this before so I know how incredibly frustrating it is. The only thing that is even more maddening is never getting to the bottom of it. I find the best thing (for me at least) is just to stop and step back for a while and just let it tick over in the background for a few days.
Just thinking out loud now... to summarise whats going on idle and low rpm pressure is ok whether hot or cold but once it's warm it won't build up any more than about 30psi. This sounded to me like classic symptoms of a restricted suction but I was proven wrong with the sump and pickup swap. Excess bearing clearance or a missing plug etc. would make the lack of pressure even worse at idle but the fact that it's ok rules that out. That and the fact that it's already been checked.
Several pumps have been tried (including known good ones) so they can also be ruled out. Shimming the relief valve makes no difference. The grade of oil is one that has been OK in any number of similar engines. It seems something may be "opening up" at pressures over 30 psi and bleeding off oil (like a crack as Bomber suggested). Whatever it is it must be dumping quite a lot of oil to be able to limit the pressure to 30psi even with a HV pump. It'd probably take something like 5 litres/min or more to do this.
Now, you said you tested it with an external pump and looked for internal leaks. Did you do this with over 30psi? This seems to be the magic number, it'd be interesting to see how much runs out at say 20psi and then compare that to what comes out at say 50psi. If it was a crack or some other sort of leak that opened under pressure I'd imagine it would be fairly obvious. I don't know what sort of gear you have available but I've made similar pressure testing/prelubing rigs using an old truck or trailer air tank (an old BBQ gas tank would work too) filled with oil and pressurised with an air line. Obviously the oil pressure will equal the air pressure less any friction losses in the line from tank to engine.
I think Kevins suggestion to check how much oil the lifters are pumping (with the engine running if possible) is a good one too. I think you mentioned changing lifters already but I'd still check it and if it proves to be the problem change to a different type.
Anyhow good luck and hang in there.
Just thinking out loud now... to summarise whats going on idle and low rpm pressure is ok whether hot or cold but once it's warm it won't build up any more than about 30psi. This sounded to me like classic symptoms of a restricted suction but I was proven wrong with the sump and pickup swap. Excess bearing clearance or a missing plug etc. would make the lack of pressure even worse at idle but the fact that it's ok rules that out. That and the fact that it's already been checked.
Several pumps have been tried (including known good ones) so they can also be ruled out. Shimming the relief valve makes no difference. The grade of oil is one that has been OK in any number of similar engines. It seems something may be "opening up" at pressures over 30 psi and bleeding off oil (like a crack as Bomber suggested). Whatever it is it must be dumping quite a lot of oil to be able to limit the pressure to 30psi even with a HV pump. It'd probably take something like 5 litres/min or more to do this.
Now, you said you tested it with an external pump and looked for internal leaks. Did you do this with over 30psi? This seems to be the magic number, it'd be interesting to see how much runs out at say 20psi and then compare that to what comes out at say 50psi. If it was a crack or some other sort of leak that opened under pressure I'd imagine it would be fairly obvious. I don't know what sort of gear you have available but I've made similar pressure testing/prelubing rigs using an old truck or trailer air tank (an old BBQ gas tank would work too) filled with oil and pressurised with an air line. Obviously the oil pressure will equal the air pressure less any friction losses in the line from tank to engine.
I think Kevins suggestion to check how much oil the lifters are pumping (with the engine running if possible) is a good one too. I think you mentioned changing lifters already but I'd still check it and if it proves to be the problem change to a different type.
Anyhow good luck and hang in there.
Edited by oldjohnno, 14 January 2012 - 08:06 PM.
#92
Tiny
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Posted 14 January 2012 - 08:14 PM
I've been watching this thread and feel your pain Chris,
Your car has always been one of my favourites and it's awesome how much you've done with it!!
Hang in there mate, With the blokes youve got thinking about this problem in this thread you will find it!!
All the best.
Your car has always been one of my favourites and it's awesome how much you've done with it!!
Hang in there mate, With the blokes youve got thinking about this problem in this thread you will find it!!
All the best.
#93
Tiny
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Posted 14 January 2012 - 08:17 PM
Actually the *ONLY* other person i would highly suggest speaking with would be Mark from Eze10s Performace - He's my engine builder and has done turboed Red 6s and learnt an amazing ammount through mistakes in his early times. What he doesnt know (between Mark and Oldjohnno and the others in this thread, isnt to be known about the red!!), doesnt need to be known.
It might pay to bounce it off yet another person and he's a top bloke. Tell him I told you to call him from the GMH-T Forum and i'm sure he will give you some time mate! 02 9623 2416 - Mark - Eze10s
http://www.eze10sperformance.com.au/
It might pay to bounce it off yet another person and he's a top bloke. Tell him I told you to call him from the GMH-T Forum and i'm sure he will give you some time mate! 02 9623 2416 - Mark - Eze10s
http://www.eze10sperformance.com.au/
#94
_76S.L.R_
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Posted 15 January 2012 - 11:37 AM
Sorry to hijack this thread but what is concidered normal oil pressure in a 308 Red Motor??,mine is pretty low or else my oil pressure guage is buggered......
#95
_355 EH_
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Posted 15 January 2012 - 04:21 PM
have you checked to see if the oil band on the lifter is out of the lifter bore at full lift ? thats about all i can think of.
#96
_WYLDLC6_
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Posted 15 January 2012 - 04:24 PM
Thanks guys, johnno how much oil would be too much coming through the lifters when running, how do i know if its too much.
What would i be looking for with sideplate covers off, would there be oil pumping out.
Thanks tiny, we will get too the bottom of this and im happy to talk to anyone about it so i'll try and get in contact with him over the next couple of days.
355 EH, i dont think so, what would i bee looking for. Do i have engine running to do this.
Cheers guys, Chris.
What would i be looking for with sideplate covers off, would there be oil pumping out.
Thanks tiny, we will get too the bottom of this and im happy to talk to anyone about it so i'll try and get in contact with him over the next couple of days.
355 EH, i dont think so, what would i bee looking for. Do i have engine running to do this.
Cheers guys, Chris.
Edited by WYLDLC6, 15 January 2012 - 04:25 PM.
#97
_355 EH_
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Posted 15 January 2012 - 04:34 PM
just take a side plate off then turn motor by hand till you get to full lift and check if you can see if the oil band is exposed, then also check at closed point on base circle of the lobe and make sure it is not also doing the same on the underside of the lifter bore. this will bleed off oil pressure for sure. you have a fair bit of lift and any good engine builder would check this as the basecircle on the cam will bee quite small. so the lifter will sit deep in its bore when closed.
#98
ls2lxhatch
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Posted 15 January 2012 - 04:46 PM
The oil band is the grey section with the hole in it on the lifter at the bottom of the picture. The oil bleed lubricates the lifter bore in the block.
#99
_WYLDLC6_
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Posted 15 January 2012 - 04:53 PM
So if the oil band is exposed thats bad then. How would this happen. Wrong size pusrods or something.
Chris
Chris
#100
_Bomber Watson_
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Posted 15 January 2012 - 04:55 PM
Wrong lifter to base circle of the cam coordination.....If that makes sence haha (im halff pissd, oopse)
Cheers.
Cheers.
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