It appears you had a dud temperature switch.To the chassis
Twin Output Thermo Fan Switch
Started by
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, Dec 29 2011 06:14 PM
54 replies to this topic
#26
ls2lxhatch
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Posted 30 December 2011 - 09:18 PM
#27
Tiny
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Posted 30 December 2011 - 09:27 PM
Heya Noballsuc, I've got to disagree with you about th fans running while ignition is off!
I like to be prepared for something to start automatically because you may be working around them, or you may have other issues going on like:
hard to start
almost a flat battery
jump starting
working in engine bay
All of these i would like the ability to ensure the fans DONT come on at start or when ignition is off.
I do agree with the heat soak though, and sometimes i'll leave the reds on which keeps the fans going for a while to pump a bit more hot air out. Of course an electric water pump along with fans running after engine shut down is a REALLY good thing to circulate the cooled water!
Cheers bloke!
Love these great discussions, we get heaps of good ideas from everyone!!
I like to be prepared for something to start automatically because you may be working around them, or you may have other issues going on like:
hard to start
almost a flat battery
jump starting
working in engine bay
All of these i would like the ability to ensure the fans DONT come on at start or when ignition is off.
I do agree with the heat soak though, and sometimes i'll leave the reds on which keeps the fans going for a while to pump a bit more hot air out. Of course an electric water pump along with fans running after engine shut down is a REALLY good thing to circulate the cooled water!
Cheers bloke!
Love these great discussions, we get heaps of good ideas from everyone!!
#28
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Posted 30 December 2011 - 09:38 PM
Tiny, Just to add to your point. I used the ignition ON arrangement and would leave the fans on after a run to let the car cool down but then I cooked an ignition coil !!!
Also the AU fans can be wired as a 2 speed setup, speed 1-Low is both in series, speed 2-High is both in parrallel. Each speed could then be arranged to operate with low and high temperature switches. Low speed could also be started by A/C and High by a manual override.
Also the AU fans can be wired as a 2 speed setup, speed 1-Low is both in series, speed 2-High is both in parrallel. Each speed could then be arranged to operate with low and high temperature switches. Low speed could also be started by A/C and High by a manual override.
Edited by The Baron, 30 December 2011 - 09:41 PM.
#29
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Posted 30 December 2011 - 10:38 PM
Heya Noballsuc, I've got to disagree with you about th fans running while ignition is off!
I like to be prepared for something to start automatically because you may be working around them, or you may have other issues going on like:
hard to start
almost a flat battery
jump starting
working in engine bay
All of these i would like the ability to ensure the fans DONT come on at start or when ignition is off.
Which are the same reasons as why manufacturers go to trouble of ensuring this on cars with elec fans as OEM.
I do agree with the heat soak though, and sometimes i'll leave the reds on which keeps the fans going for a while to pump a bit more hot air out. Of course an electric water pump along with fans running after engine shut down is a REALLY good thing to circulate the cooled water!
Cheers bloke!
Im curious about the fascination with heat soak. Yes, the temperature gauge will increase well into the overheat region when the motor is switched off on a hot day for up to 15 mins or so, but is that bad?
I say no, its only the water temperature you are seeing, not the temperature of the components of the engine. The hottest parts of the engine when its running are obviously the pistons, combustion chamber and valves. There is a temperature gradient between them and the cylinder head and the water and oil circulating through the head. When the water is moving fast enough it stays temp of 80C or so, it is removing heat directly from the cylinder head, which has to be hotter than 80C(much much ,.....hotter). There is a constant flow of heat that is picked up from the combustion process and transferred to the water. When the motor is stopped the combustion process obviously isnt happening, from this moment on the motor can not get any hotter as the energy source has been removed. The internals begin to cool rapidly and continue to transfer their heat to the coolant, yes the coolant (that which is in the cylinder head) gets hotter because its not moving, buts thats it.
Really, if one was concerned about heat soak, then it would be the oil on the rings when the motor is initially stopped, it will be subjected to searing temps for quite a while and would/does develop a nasty film, one should keep the motor turning over for a while after shutdown........which is what should also be done to stop an overheated motor from seizing its pistons in the bore.
Components under the bonnet that will melt at shutdown due to heatsoak? I think they'll be even hotter(especially from the exhaust manifold) when the motor is running and the fans arent being used too.
Yes, problems such as fuel vaporisation can be big problems in cars that are retrofitted to elec fans etc as the underbonnet temps do get hotter without an engine fan, and this is exaccerbated when shutdown, so yes running the fans past the carby/fuel lines can prevent this.
Also from a point of view of heat soaking into the passenger compartment/ventilation system I can see that sometimes there are good reasons to run the fans after shutdown.
Edited by torbirdie, 30 December 2011 - 10:40 PM.
#30
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Posted 31 December 2011 - 05:42 PM
Heya Noballsuc, I've got to disagree with you about th fans running while ignition is off!
I like to be prepared for something to start automatically because you may be working around them, or you may have other issues going on like:
hard to start
almost a flat battery
jump starting
working in engine bay
All of these i would like the ability to ensure the fans DONT come on at start or when ignition is off.
It could always be wired up to a turbo timer so the fans only run for 1,3 or 5 mins after the engine is turned off. Personally I wouldn't, but it can be done.
#31
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Posted 31 December 2011 - 06:44 PM
My Coupe has the fans powered so they can run with the ignition off.. They only even run for id say 2 mins max and thats on a scorching day. If your battery goes flat in that time then there is other issues? Granted it only has a single 12" fan not twin 14" ones like some others may run? but if they did it should stop even sooner.
#32
EunUCh
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Posted 31 December 2011 - 07:18 PM
No worries Tiny,yeah i forgot a lot you blokes run elec.pumps which would load things up even more and didnt realize
the fans drew so much on start up,didnt know they were 2 speed,Forgot about fingers,shirts,fright when they start.
I had a couple of fans hard wired and had no probs.they were not drawing so much current so wasnt a prob.they would
only kick in for around 3 min initialy then drop off as things cooled down.
As far as hot soak is concerned,just from my reckoning,,engine is stopped,car is at stand still,no air flow,no circulating water
other than thermosyphon,that heat has to go somewhere and its the eng.bay that cops it,(like an oven),just helps pull
things down a bit.
They could be timed quite easily.
Yeah,,funny how you find out about other things when topics go a bit off topic
,better get used to it i spose.
Back to OPers quest.You might have to bite the bullet and get a dual sens. and have an adaptor made for thread
but you will need another wire to go to the relay from the dual switched sens.which means attacking the harness.
best i can offer for simple fix is wire it as per.pic.provided they switch as advertised only one fan should
come on at a time,the PWM(depends on the duty cycle) setup sounds good,as does the prog. set up.
Just my idea on it!!
[attachment=17692:rel3.jpg]
the fans drew so much on start up,didnt know they were 2 speed,Forgot about fingers,shirts,fright when they start.
I had a couple of fans hard wired and had no probs.they were not drawing so much current so wasnt a prob.they would
only kick in for around 3 min initialy then drop off as things cooled down.
As far as hot soak is concerned,just from my reckoning,,engine is stopped,car is at stand still,no air flow,no circulating water
other than thermosyphon,that heat has to go somewhere and its the eng.bay that cops it,(like an oven),just helps pull
things down a bit.
They could be timed quite easily.
Yeah,,funny how you find out about other things when topics go a bit off topic
,better get used to it i spose.Back to OPers quest.You might have to bite the bullet and get a dual sens. and have an adaptor made for thread
but you will need another wire to go to the relay from the dual switched sens.which means attacking the harness.
best i can offer for simple fix is wire it as per.pic.provided they switch as advertised only one fan should
come on at a time,the PWM(depends on the duty cycle) setup sounds good,as does the prog. set up.
Just my idea on it!!
[attachment=17692:rel3.jpg]
#33
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Posted 31 December 2011 - 11:20 PM
Yea I decided to mod the radiator to accept the 22mm duel output senders, found a 22mm tap on eBay for $14 as I will probly only use it once
#34
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Posted 01 January 2012 - 12:08 AM
An EH temp light switch closes at about 96 C and could trigger one relay. That's what I've always used and it hasn't failed yet. Other temp switches will flick at other temps and you could possibly drill and tap the thermo housing (or whatever) and away you go. I wouldn't drill and tap the rad. Thermo housings are a lot cheaper than rads if you stuff up.
#35
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Posted 01 January 2012 - 12:38 AM
Rad already has a plate in the top tank big enough for a 22mm sender. It's only alloy, the TIG can fix it anyway... As long as I don't touch the core 
#36
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Posted 01 January 2012 - 01:46 AM
Ahh, I didn't know that. Shouldn't a seperate earth lead be installed to prevent reduce electrolysis?
#37
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Posted 01 January 2012 - 01:53 AM
Yea the twin output ones have a separate earth terminal and don't earth through the switch itself like the single ones.
Altho my rad isn't isolated ATM anyway, it's on the list of things to check.
Altho my rad isn't isolated ATM anyway, it's on the list of things to check.
#38
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Posted 01 January 2012 - 09:54 AM
As Tiny mentioned earlier in this thread i used a Tridon TFS205 dual thermo switch to turn my fans on seperately, the first one at 87-77 the second at 92-82 with a manual over ride that turns both fans on if needed.
I can also have the ignition on to crank the engine over but it will not start because i have an extra switch to active the coil,if that makes sense , so i can leave the fans on and not cook the coil
I bough an adapter to fit into the radiator from Industrial Fitting Supplies here in Ingleburn. they have fittings of all sizes shapes and descriptions.
They have a branch in Wangarra in WA, i dont know if thats close to you or not, Their phone number is 08 9408 0099 worth a call, it might save you save you a bit of work .
If you need photo's i will put some up latter.
I hope this helps
Wayne
I can also have the ignition on to crank the engine over but it will not start because i have an extra switch to active the coil,if that makes sense , so i can leave the fans on and not cook the coil
I bough an adapter to fit into the radiator from Industrial Fitting Supplies here in Ingleburn. they have fittings of all sizes shapes and descriptions.
They have a branch in Wangarra in WA, i dont know if thats close to you or not, Their phone number is 08 9408 0099 worth a call, it might save you save you a bit of work .
If you need photo's i will put some up latter.
I hope this helps
Wayne
#39
_The Baron_
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Posted 01 January 2012 - 08:04 PM
Great looking switch but would the TFS208 be a better option (95 on 85 off & 102 on 92 off).
When you consider that the thermostat normally used will have a crack open value of 82 with a wide open value 94. Making the fan(s) run down the temperature below 82 so they can switch off seems a bit pointless, no?
Here is a link to the thermostat operation in detail ( I hope this works)
http://holdenpaedia....don_Thermostats
As a guide, I have been using a VDO 230.045 (96 Deg C) and it was bringing on the AU fans at 3/4 scale and would drag the temperature down to about 1/3 within a few minutes regardless of 40 plus temperature in snail traffic like the Bay to Birdwood run.
But that Trident version looks better as it has 2 settings that will be a ripper once coupled with a 2 speed fan setup. I would still use a relay arrangment so the fan motor current does not go through the temperature switch contacts, that way it should be reliable and will last for ever. I used the compact fraud relay arrangement as it has a cover over the relays as a bonus.
When you consider that the thermostat normally used will have a crack open value of 82 with a wide open value 94. Making the fan(s) run down the temperature below 82 so they can switch off seems a bit pointless, no?
Here is a link to the thermostat operation in detail ( I hope this works)
http://holdenpaedia....don_Thermostats
As a guide, I have been using a VDO 230.045 (96 Deg C) and it was bringing on the AU fans at 3/4 scale and would drag the temperature down to about 1/3 within a few minutes regardless of 40 plus temperature in snail traffic like the Bay to Birdwood run.
But that Trident version looks better as it has 2 settings that will be a ripper once coupled with a 2 speed fan setup. I would still use a relay arrangment so the fan motor current does not go through the temperature switch contacts, that way it should be reliable and will last for ever. I used the compact fraud relay arrangement as it has a cover over the relays as a bonus.
#40
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Posted 01 January 2012 - 09:05 PM
It may be a better option ,but as this was an untried set up with two 9" fans on the rear of the radiator i thought i would play it safe to see how it worked out ,so far it seems to be all right .
I don,t like to get these old red sixes to hot
Each fan has its own seperate relay , and they are only single speed units.
Thanx mate
I don,t like to get these old red sixes to hot
Each fan has its own seperate relay , and they are only single speed units.
Thanx mate
#41
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Posted 01 January 2012 - 10:33 PM
Wouldnt the 2nd fan not coming on until 102'c be abit too late? I know with coolant it wont be boiling at 102 but wouldnt be far off... Id prefer to catch it before it gets to high...
I was going to use TFS211 90on 80off and 97on 87off?
Whats the ideal temp to hold the engine at? I thought it was between 80-90 or should it be 90-100?
I was going to use TFS211 90on 80off and 97on 87off?
Whats the ideal temp to hold the engine at? I thought it was between 80-90 or should it be 90-100?
#42
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Posted 01 January 2012 - 10:49 PM
Thats why i went the way i did Clint , and that particular switch didn,t need any fancy plugs to connect it up ,i used spade connectors.
About 80 is pretty right , the late model gear runs around 100-102
I hope the info for adapters was of some help ?
About 80 is pretty right , the late model gear runs around 100-102
I hope the info for adapters was of some help ?
#43
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Posted 01 January 2012 - 11:48 PM
I wont need a adapter this time, but that is a very good site/supplier... with pics of each product. I will no doubt use it in the future.
They do actually do a 22mm female / 16mm male adaptor as well. Which I would of just used if it wasn't so visible in the engine bay.
They do actually do a 22mm female / 16mm male adaptor as well. Which I would of just used if it wasn't so visible in the engine bay.
Edited by Viper, 02 January 2012 - 12:00 AM.
#44
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Posted 02 January 2012 - 08:32 AM
Great looking switch but would the TFS208 be a better option (95 on 85 off & 102 on 92 off).
When you consider that the thermostat normally used will have a crack open value of 82 with a wide open value 94. Making the fan(s) run down the temperature below 82 so they can switch off seems a bit pointless, no?
If the switch off temp of the fans is below or close to minimum thermostat opening temperature, and the sensor is put in the block, thermostat cover, top hose or top tank of radiator, then the fans will never turn off once the motor has reached thermostat temp.
Ideal would be that the fans shut off just on the maximum wide open valve of the thermostat(which you have listed as 94), otherwise basically underutilising the radiator and running the fans more than necessary.
Wouldnt the 2nd fan not coming on until 102'c be abit too late? I know with coolant it wont be boiling at 102 but wouldnt be far off... Id prefer to catch it before it gets to high...
Really 102 is just a number(and really nothing compared to what the temps of the interal components get to) and if you dont have a radiator cap its fairly critical, but given that you should be/are running a radiator cap of at least 13psi, then the critical temp is around 115C before it will start to boil, add ~another 5-8C if you are running 50/50 glycol mix.
I was going to use TFS211 90on 80off and 97on 87off?
Whats the ideal temp to hold the engine at? I thought it was between 80-90 or should it be 90-100?
with a 82C thermostat the fans would continually run with a 80 off switch.
If you dont have problems with fuel vaporisation then the 102C switch on would be fine.
if available then 97-87 and 102-92 would be a reasonable choice, though ideally Id like to see options with only 5C between switch on and off.
Edited by torbirdie, 02 January 2012 - 08:47 AM.
#45
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Posted 02 January 2012 - 09:11 AM
Timed out above, in regards to the temp range of the switch, from memory the adjustable one that craig davis supplied to go in the top hose had a shut and open within 5C, it was never cycling on and off too rapidly.
If wide open thermostat is 94, then 95-100C and 98-103C would be my desired combo for staggering the fans.
What's the ideal temp, for efficiency on the open road, probably 90C, but results may differ...........
Either way on the open road you want your car to be able to do that without needing fan assistance in any conditions..
The idea of elec fans is that they are only used 1% of the time or less, low air flow conditions(low speed traffic crawling) in which the motor isnt being used hard, not as something to regulate the temp of the motor for the majority of the time.
If wide open thermostat is 94, then 95-100C and 98-103C would be my desired combo for staggering the fans.
What's the ideal temp, for efficiency on the open road, probably 90C, but results may differ...........
Either way on the open road you want your car to be able to do that without needing fan assistance in any conditions..
The idea of elec fans is that they are only used 1% of the time or less, low air flow conditions(low speed traffic crawling) in which the motor isnt being used hard, not as something to regulate the temp of the motor for the majority of the time.
Edited by torbirdie, 02 January 2012 - 09:12 AM.
#46
_The Baron_
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Posted 02 January 2012 - 09:37 AM
^^^^^^ Yes Torbirdie, I think we are on the same page.
I would use the lower setting 95 on 85 off to run the low speed ( 2 fans in series ) which would draw bugger all current but could be enough to prevent the high speed, high current flat out speed from coming on every time.
But that is just my take on it all, each to their own.
I would use the lower setting 95 on 85 off to run the low speed ( 2 fans in series ) which would draw bugger all current but could be enough to prevent the high speed, high current flat out speed from coming on every time.
But that is just my take on it all, each to their own.
#47
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Posted 02 January 2012 - 10:15 AM
Ok well the one I do have at the moment is Tridon TFS207 (97-87, 102-92) Ill see how that goes.
#48
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Posted 03 January 2012 - 01:40 PM
The TFS207 looks like the pick temperature range wise but the connection may be a head ache unless you can source a plug to go onto it.
Does the supplier have an option?
Does the supplier have an option?
#49
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Posted 03 January 2012 - 08:03 PM
I wonder if this will fit... says its a "3 pin injector plug" that I can get from a shop here in perth.
These are the pics from the Tridon website, Looks very close...
These are the pics from the Tridon website, Looks very close...
Edited by Viper, 03 January 2012 - 08:05 PM.
#50
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Posted 31 January 2012 - 11:28 AM
Below is a circuit I've used in my 4WD to control twin thermos. It's a modified circuit that I found someone had used to run twin AU fans, basically you get two speeds: low (both fans running in series) and high (both fans running in parallel.) It works exceptionally well and I've had that set up for a couple of years now powering a Spal twin 11" fan assembly. You could substitute the dual temp switch in place of the voltage switch circuits that I've used. I just wanted some adjustability for the set points. 
.JPG)
Edited by triumph202, 31 January 2012 - 11:29 AM.
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