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slaaar LH V6 air con conversion

Started by _slaaar_ , Jun 03 2012 02:16 PM

Air Conditioner V6

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33 replies to this topic

#1 _slaaar_

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 02:16 PM

G'day Torana nuts - my project plan "slaaar LH V6 air con conversion" for the next 12 months is to spend heaps of hard earned money & suck up lots of time building an everyday driver that GMH might have built if they had access to a VT electronic fuel injected V6 donk and a dirty great air conditioning unit. I live in Darwin NT and up here 100% s.n.a.f.u = blistering hot or driving rain. No A/C is hell. I drove a VB dunger without air con for years up here. Can't see through the steam when it's raining and can't breathe with the windows up the other 5 months of the year. I have gotta end up with a car at the end of this that can cut it with Top End conditions, year round and day in day out... Just love my Torana and don't want to have to walk past it to the wife's car because it's either too hot or too wet to drive it.

So, the Plan: I have a one owner 1999 auto VT Commodore which was the wifes trolley. It was treated like a baby and only took one blat down the track to Alice Springs and back, (before they introduced speed limits) which convinced me that the V6 is stick enough for my old bloke needs. The VT cranks 147KW, whereas the stock 253 (4150cc) was rated at 138KW and the SLR 5050cc at 179KW. For the record, I would like to immediately concede defeat to all the V8 Torana owners. I love V8 Toranas. My rebuild is the junior burger retro version with that old torana six appeal. The 4spd gearbox (Hydra - Matic 4L60 - E) will also replace the old 3spd traumatic. I am sourcing the conversion gear for the engine transplant from Pat Gardner in Moree NSW. There are tons of good reports about Pat and his gear and he seems to be geniunely friendly and helpful on the phone, which matters heaps when you live 3000km away. Here's the V6 (note that it's still working at the moment - how hard can it be right?).

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The plan is to drop the above into the below:

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Before any of that can happen though, I have to yank the air con & heater unit out of the crumpledoor. Check out the size of the unit! I tried to find threads of successful commodore to torana AC implants but couldn't find much. If anyone knows of past or present projects can you please point me at them?

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and then work out, how the hell I can jam as much of it as possible under the LH dash? Don't even know if this is possible yet? I also want to retain as much original torana dash look as possible? My god, what have I done ???

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But I also need to bring this technology with it.

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You can see that there isn't miles of room under there.

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I have to get the VT A/C checked out next as it's on the blink and then get it de-gassed de-pressurised so I can get it out.

It's great to finally be pointed straight at this project but also a bit daunting stripping down pop's untouched old sled in the hope that I can put it all back together. Whattya reckon? Quick weekend fix-it job or 6 Months and 6K? or whaaat? .............

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#2 _LS1 Hatch_

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 02:28 PM

Just an option...instead of trying to use that great big air con unit, perhaps use a small street rod setup. That is what I did in mine for air con and heat, and it fits up under the dash for the most part (hangs down only a litte bit). I mounted it to the left hand side since I have the PCM mounting in the center in front of the console..

I tied it into the factory defroster duct so that works great and also have it ran to the original fresh air vents on either side of the dash (so they are for air con now) and also made my own plenum and vent assemble for the center console that looks pretty stock and like the original heater unit setup.

You can see in this picture that you can't really tell the car has the air con unit

(there are a bunch of other pics I posted in my build thread here as well)

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2012-05-2119.53.24.jpg 74.24K 9 downloads

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#3 _slaaar_

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 04:16 PM

That looks really neat and not sticking out at all. Where are the A/C controls located? I can't see them on your centre console? I also want to use the side vents and a centre console vent and was hoping that I might be able to cut up the box and use the VT A/C and plumb it into the LH heater box. Will need it all out and in front of me to see if it can work though? I might end up having to explore all sorts of options if the VT box doesn't fit. At the moment it is free so it is my best bet to try out first. I am willing to have a non functional glove box and ash tray if required but don't want to cut the dash. Love your ride. Are you an aussie on loan or an apple pie? and .... Aren't you mean't to have the rudder on the udder side over there?

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#4 Mort

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 07:22 PM

Will be watching this one closely, the boy has a VT series II manual V6 and was wanting to put the motor in his torana.

Pat Gardner, is he V6 Conversions.

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#5 _Torrie_Man_

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 07:28 PM

Pat Gardner, is he V6 Conversions.

Thats him.

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#6 A9X

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 08:59 PM

also keen to see how this goes.

I'm half inclined to do the same, mums shopping trolley just died electrically, but the v6 has done great service and would be a nice every day driver in a LX.

very keen to see how you sort the a/c

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#7 _1uzbt1_

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 10:25 PM

Good luck and will be following this with interest. I'm doing something similar to my HQ but not using the vt hvac as its to big but wanna run the v6 variable comp.

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#8 _LS1 Hatch_

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 07:30 AM

That looks really neat and not sticking out at all. Where are the A/C controls located? I can't see them on your centre console? I also want to use the side vents and a centre console vent and was hoping that I might be able to cut up the box and use the VT A/C and plumb it into the LH heater box. Will need it all out and in front of me to see if it can work though? I might end up having to explore all sorts of options if the VT box doesn't fit. At the moment it is free so it is my best bet to try out first. I am willing to have a non functional glove box and ash tray if required but don't want to cut the dash. Love your ride. Are you an aussie on loan or an apple pie? and .... Aren't you mean't to have the rudder on the udder side over there?

I mounted the controls in the stock location in the dash... Oh, and I am a Yanky born and bred....ha ha.. (been over there to Melbourne area a bunch of times though)

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#9 _ss kustomz_

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 06:52 PM

I have the exited v6 in my lx and it's a great conversion, ran 15.4 at willowbank on 3.08 gears and stock converter.
Pat gardiners kits aren't bad but the instructions are a bit vague and you will need to work out a lot of the details yourself.
. As to the ac I am looking at a vintage air setup which i've been quoted $2100 to supply and fit because I've already got a compressor.
Pm me if you want more details. Steve

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#10 _V6 UC_

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 11:23 AM

V6s toranas go like a scolded cat, I run a 12.2 last meet

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#11 _slaaar_

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 02:27 PM

Just an option...instead of trying to use that great big air con unit, perhaps use a small street rod setup. That is what I did in mine for air con and heat, and it fits up under the dash for the most part (hangs down only a litte bit). I mounted it to the left hand side since I have the PCM mounting in the center in front of the console..

I tied it into the factory defroster duct so that works great and also have it ran to the original fresh air vents on either side of the dash (so they are for air con now) and also made my own plenum and vent assemble for the center console that looks pretty stock and like the original heater unit setup.

Jeff's advice looks like it might turn out to be the best option to go with for the LH A/C conversion. I took the VT in to get the system checked over and de-gassed the other day and got lucky with the automotive electrician I chose as he is into street machining and custom rides. While not saying it can't be done, he reckons the VT cross over will be a world of pain because of the units size, the fact that it uses vacuum for the directional control actuators and the location of the TX (Thermal Expansion Valve) will make either firewall mods or a re-designed box necessary (plastic molding). He showed me a nice HR and an FJ that both have aftermarket systems they installed with a lot less space and plumbing issues. They make up neat little chrome vents and mount them under the dash, and can use the existing fan switch and use the old clutch location for the hot/cold control. The real kicker is that the result is a super frosty air con which is really the main game.

I am still going to get the VT unit out (been laid low with nasty flu this week) and play around with whether it all fits or not and will post some pics on what I discover. Also have to suss out how best to do the controls. V6 Conversions told me that the VT condenser won't fit and I would need to use a VS unit. The auto sparky reckons put the new motor in and they will measure up the available space for a multi directional (?) ... or ... multi-valve (??) condenser unit that reduces the wear and tear on the compressor when using it when the vehicle is stationary (which happens all the time up here).

I have the exited v6 in my lx and it's a great conversion, ran 15.4 at willowbank on 3.08 gears and stock converter.
Pat gardiners kits aren't bad but the instructions are a bit vague and you will need to work out a lot of the details yourself.
. As to the ac I am looking at a vintage air setup which i've been quoted $2100 to supply and fit because I've already got a compressor.

It's good to hear other owners that are running the V6 reckon it is good chop and getting some good ET's.. It certainly goes hard in the VT. I probably will have to pm you Steve if Pat's instructions are too vague as I am no mechanic or auto electrician. I think the quote you got for the a/c sounds right Steve. The auto sparky told me the heater/blower/evaporator unit was $480. If you add on the pipes, the condenser, the dryer and the mucking around it would be about that. Needless to say, my VT compressor needs replacing so I can add the $450 for that too.

I haven't worked out the rear end yet so at this stage it is just the standard SL diff (3.36 ratio) and drum brakes. Would love the rear to have discs but not sure how to go about that yet?

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#12 _LS1 Hatch_

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 02:36 PM

My unit came with those little add-on vents as well, but I didn't care for the look of them (thought it made the system look too "added on") and they just looked kinda cheap imo as well. So I took the trouble to change things around to be able to use the factory side fresh air vents along with making my own vent and plenum setup for the center console as well.
All in all though it blows cold and will make it comfy to drive in the summer, defroster still works properly for dewy morning or nights (get abit of dew here being sorta close to the beach) and was a decent enough size for packaging into the car. I'd use another similar sort of setup in a heart beat again.

Oh, and on the condensor....there are a heap of different universal sizes out there available. I just picked out one that suited the car (radiator size, ease of mounting and hose locations) and went with that.

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#13 A9X

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 03:33 PM

Jeff what make and model did you use.

I've looked at a couple of the aftermarket units and they all (obviously) reference yank muscle, so its hard to guesstimate which unit would fit...

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#14 _slaaar_

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 03:54 PM

I agree. The systems I saw looked OK too but added on. The round chrome vents works good in the old HR and FJ cause they already have a bit of factory chrome inside. I still have to sort out the centre vents - was hoping to modify the VT ones for this purpose. Believe it or not, I haven't decided whether I am even adding a centre console yet? Strictly speaking I don't need one as I am going to keep the column auto shift as it is just so funky 70's and sort of works for me in the cruising stakes. I also really enjoyed the open clear floor when I was driving it around, but ..there's nowhere to put the morning coffee fix. When you ducted your a/c to the side vents did you run ducting all the way to the vents or just straight into the main vent well cavity?
BTW. love your build thread LS1 Hatch. :rockon:

Took me a few days to read it all.

Are there any pics out there anyone of late model commodore centre consoles in toranas?

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#15 _bpi_

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 08:38 PM

Here you go,

http://www.ebay.com....=item337679cfed

Cheers Ben

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#16 Lima31

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 11:11 PM

I still think the Holdon setup with the Hilux unit is one of the best high capacity setups, perhaps not the neatest though

http://www.cardomain...-torana/page-3

Perhaps it can work well with your stock compressor

Edited by Lima31, 07 June 2012 - 11:13 PM.

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#17 Growla

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 09:44 AM

Toranamat69 (?) did a r31 skyline set up. I pulled one out and test fitted it and because I was impatient I damaged it , but it almost lines up with the original heater pipe outlet on the fire wall. He put centre vents when the ashtray is. If I had my choice again I would use that system instead of the under dash system which has no fresh/ recycle setup. Just my 2 cents worth.

Cheers

Mark

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#18 _LS1 Hatch_

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 02:50 PM

Jeff what make and model did you use. I've looked at a couple of the aftermarket units and they all (obviously) reference yank muscle, so its hard to guesstimate which unit would fit...

The brand I used is not around any more, but is very similar to ones other street rod type setups are running. They had made (and other companies still do I would say) a couple different sizes from memory. Real big units for wagons and such, little teeny ones for small cab early trucks and early era coupes and sort of a medium sized ones for muscle car sized stuff. I just used a middle of the road sized unit (there was a couple with different size configurations) and just used the one that seemed to fit the best for what I wanted.
I like the fact all the connections are behind the dash instead of heater hoses or a/c lines poking through the firewall as you might see with factory setups. That let me run the lines exactly where I wanted and not have to change things around to suit the air con unit instead of the other way around.

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#19 _1uzbt1_

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 04:44 PM

If you have the coin i would go for a vintage air unit, it will provide hot/cold and you will be able to plumb to your original dash vents easy enough. The have demist aswel so kill alot of birds with one stone so to speak. The genII super (61005-vuz-a) would be my pic but you can get without defrost, its about $800 big ones though but you get a fair bit too just gotta sort what controls you want from various options. They are 8.5x8.5x24 inches in dimensions, have alook around vintage air website there are a few options.

Im using a vs condensor as i have them stockpiled on the HQ, they are parrarell flow which are more efficent than the old serpintine ones.

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#20 _slaaar_

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 12:40 AM

It's been a while, but it's official. No way on gods earth will a VT Commodore air conditoner unit fit in an LH Torana unless you are prepared to take to the Torana with a gas axe and re-fabricate the firewall, the plenum and the transmission tunnel. For the record, the torana transmission tunnel sits very high against the firewall and the plenum chamber is very deep when compared to the VT's relatively shallow plenum and flat trans tunnel. The VT unit is far too tall and bulky to push it back far enough and get it under and behind the torana dash. You can see the comparative difference in the size of the VT A/C and the std torana heater unit.

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I spent a lot ot time trimming all the unecessary fat off the VT unit, ultimately cutting away the heater side and heater core just trying to get it to fit. see the attached image. The attempt to jam it in there makes me think of a couple of funny expressions that wouldn't be appropriate here......

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Vintage Air is the best lead I have now - thanks 1uzbt1. They have a range of systems designed to retro fit straight into US cars but also have a good range of "universal" fit systems and a good on-line catalogue. I currently have a mock unit (Gen II Super 610050 - VUA) on hire to get the fit right and the bracket and piping locations right. The unit includes a heater servo which I still don't know if it connects to the engine water system or not?

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The auto sparky here said I couldn't get the system installed with windscreen demist, which I really wanted to keep as an option for steamy days. You can see why on the next image as the demist outlets sit back on the unit and basically butt up against the plenum underneath. Lot of mucking around to resolve.

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I am now thinking to plumb one defrost pipe into the plenum through the existing 5" fresh air hole with a rubber sleeve seal and then back out through the front just behind the glovebox (2" holesaw) and into the demist duct. I will block of the second demist duct inlet. The other outlet can just roll out to the passenger floor as it is only for short burst usage anyway. The drivers vent duct hose will also be fed through the plenum chamber as well. Generally the unit fits well and leaves enough space behind it to run the A/C pipes inside the car to exit into the engine bay on the passenger side which is in line with the V6 compressor. Still have to sort out the centre floor vents?

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Because the unit is US made and designed for the left hookers all the cold air outlets are to the right of the unit. Advantage is the passenger vent is only a short distance. The other two big setback issues to juggle is interference with the stereo space to leave enough clearance from the pipes to avoid cooking or chilling the stereo and on the left hand side the VT computer needs about 3.5 - 4" of clearance or it won't come out of its cradle without removing the A/C unit first.

I am also thinking to keep the old LH fan and just cover with a grill and use it to 're-circulate' air from inside on the passenger side back to the centre where the A/C will be doing it's breathing?

I have asked for a price on all the bits and pieces so will let you know what happens next.

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#21 _1uzbt1_

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 11:00 AM

Ahh good stuff, nothing like the time spent making something fit that was never supposed to be there.

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#22 _LS1 Hatch_

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 11:09 AM

That vintage air unit looks pretty huge, perhaps see about using a smaller unit ? Mine fits under the passenger side of the dash and does not extend over the trans tunnel area at all. (that is where I have my PCM mounted)
The defrost outlets are on the top of the unit and do make for a tight fit with the hoses off of them up to the factory plenum, but I was able to squeeze it all in with a little bit of juggling, ha ha..

(And the air is working great, used it the other day when I went out to test out my new rear brakes)

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#23 _1uzbt1_

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 04:11 PM

A customer bought me one of thes to plumb up for his 57 chev pickup, was quite compact and worked well in this massive heat load of 18 degree days..
http://www.oldairpro...e_advantage.php

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#24 Neils LX

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 10:36 AM

I dont know if you have bought your V6 wiring harness but i found Pat from V6 conversions hopless to deal with. I bought a kit to suit 5L to LX and nothing fitted. Aftersales service if you could evently reach him on the phone was poor and wiring instuctions was 2 photocopyed bits of paper.
I would hope that he has picked up his game as im not the only one not happy with him.
If you want a good harness underdash conversion Castle auto electrics as so much easyer to deal with everything fitted and aftersales service was awesome. They do exchange harness so you can send your harness and when you get it back it all works.
Sorry bout rant but was not happy with V6 conversions one bit.

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#25 _LS1 Hatch_

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 10:39 AM

A customer bought me one of thes to plumb up for his 57 chev pickup, was quite compact and worked well in this massive heat load of 18 degree days..
http://www.oldairpro...e_advantage.php

I bought assorted fitting, hose and hard line from OAP, no probs with thier stuff or service for what it's worth.