200 replies to this topic

[Dr Terry]

Putting a V8 in the LJ XU1 wasn't just normal evolution of type it was a major change.

'Evolution of type' didn't occur until the Group A/FIA rules. I believe that in the case of the VK & VL Commodores, 5000 normal V8 cars had to be built & then 500 of the 'Evolution Special' could then be built.

Back in Series Production & Group C days you could get away with making just 100, 200 or 500 cars total (depending on the year), so in 1972, 200 Torana LJ V8s (in total) was all that was required.

Dr Terry

[S pack]

'Evolution of type' didn't occur until the Group A/FIA rules. I believe that in the case of the VK & VL Commodores, 5000 normal V8 cars had to be built & then 500 of the 'Evolution Special' could then be built.

Back in Series Production & Group C days you could get away with making just 100, 200 or 500 cars total (depending on the year), so in 1972, 200 Torana LJ V8s (in total) was all that was required.

Dr Terry

So all the homologated parts upgrades to the LC & LJ XU1's wasn't evolution of the model type? Don't see how you figure that Dr Terry.

Agree only 200 LJ V8 XU1's would have been required in 1972 as 200 basically identical cars was the minimum number required for CAMS recognition.

The 500 cars I was talking about in my previous post was just hypothesising if the LJ V8 XU1 program had been in 1973 as RichoX1 is wanting us to believe according to his dishlexick dribble.

Cheers
Dave.

[Dr Terry]

I agree, 100 units were required prior to 1966, from 66 to 72 it was 200 & Group C had it as 500. I don't think any more of any similar car was required.

The term 'Evolution of Type' is the exact wording used by the FIA in Group A rules. I.E. 5,000 base models required & then 500 of the Sporting Evolution. I did not hear of that term until 1984.

I always believed that each time a major mod was introduced in Series Prod. days, they just made another 200 cars. E.G. the CK motor & Aussie 4-speed in late LC & the alloy wheels for the Aug 72 LJ. These would have been allowed to race with or without the previous cars ever being made. AFAIK also the XU-1 would have still been allowed without the existence of the 10s of thousands of base models to back them up.

Dr Terry

[REDA9X]

Ok, who is posing as richo, that was readable, wrong, but readable

[S pack]

I agree, 100 units were required prior to 1966, from 66 to 72 it was 200 & Group C had it as 500. I don't think any more of any similar car was required.

The term 'Evolution of Type' is the exact wording used by the FIA in Group A rules. I.E. 5,000 base models required & then 500 of the Sporting Evolution. I did not hear of that term until 1984.

I always believed that each time a major mod was introduced in Series Prod. days, they just made another 200 cars. E.G. the CK motor & Aussie 4-speed in late LC & the alloy wheels for the Aug 72 LJ. These would have been allowed to race with or without the previous cars ever being made. AFAIK also the XU-1 would have still been allowed without the existence of the 10s of thousands of base models to back them up.

Dr Terry

Well Dr Terry, you need to look at The CAMS Series Production rules.

Paragraph: 4. Recognition.
All cars recognised by the FIA or as applicable, recognised by CAMS shall be the subject of a descriptive form called the Certificate of Description, on which shall be entered all data enabling identification of the said model, and such additional forms for "normal evolution of type" and "variant" as may be approved. Such additional forms shall be accepted only if at least 50% of the required minimum number of cars have been sold.(See para. 3, supra)

Paragraph: 3. Minimum Production and Sales
To be eligible, cars shall offer at least 4 seats, unless their engine capacity is inferior to 700cc, in which case the manufacturer may deliver them as two seaters. In addition, cars shall comply with the following requirements:

(i) If manufactured or assembled in Australia, they shall be one of at least 200 basically identical units which have been sold in Australia.
(ii) If fully imported into Australia, they shall have been manufactured in a quantity of at least 5,000 identical units in twelve months, ie. homologated Group 1 by FIA, of which at least 100 of the 5,000 units have been sold in Australia.

The above rules are where everyone gets confused about the perceived requirement for 200 cars be built every time a new part or parts were homologated.

Have a look at it from the fully imported car point of view. Imagine the XU1 was a foreign made fully imported car. This would have meant that 5,000 identical XU1's would have had to be made for every homologation and 100 of those 5,000 units sold in Australia.

It's all in the interpretation.

[Dr Terry]

Yep thats right Dr Terry the first 500 LJ 72 xu1 made up the only recorded xu1 production run that permitted the 73 XU1 to race at Bathurst they didnt even need too pass another 500 of to the public before they could race a 73 XU2 if they where made only the parts had to be summited to cams as a mods document
So this actually means the 73 XU1 was going to be the XU2 because a prototype was never put into production half way through the year only being available as a performance type of a certain model of production vehicle

Richo, just to make it simple the LJ V8 (which was never officially called an XU2) was to be released & raced in the latter part of 1972. At this time the LH was in the distant future & Group C wasn't in vogue.

XU2 was the option code for the LH 308 & in the final stages of design it was rebadged as the SL/R 5000.

Had the LJ V8 been released in 1972 & then maybe updated in 1973 we would be having a different discussion, but it wasn't so we don't need to mention any 1973 upgrade of the LJ V8. The rules changed to Group C & the 202 XU-1 lived on to race under the new rules in 1973.

Can I ask how old you are & if you were following the racing in 1972. I am now 59 years old & was following Series Production racing seriously in the late 60s & early 70s.

Dr Terry

[REDA9X]

Terry, I'm sure Craig is right here.

[Dr Terry]

Well Dr Terry, you need to look at The CAMS Series Production rules.

Paragraph: 4. Recognition.
All cars recognised by the FIA or as applicable, recognised by CAMS shall be the subject of a descriptive form called the Certificate of Description, on which shall be entered all data enabling identification of the said model, and such additional forms for "normal evolution of type" and "variant" as may be approved. Such additional forms shall be accepted only if at least 50% of the required minimum number of cars have been sold.(See para. 3, supra)

Paragraph: 3. Minimum Production and Sales
To be eligible, cars shall offer at least 4 seats, unless their engine capacity is inferior to 700cc, in which case the manufacturer may deliver them as two seaters. In addition, cars shall comply with the following requirements:

(i) If manufactured or assembled in Australia, they shall be one of at least 200 basically identical units which have been sold in Australia.
(ii) If fully imported into Australia, they shall have been manufactured in a quantity of at least 5,000 identical units in twelve months, ie. homologated Group 1 by FIA, of which at least 100 of the 5,000 units have been sold in Australia.

The above rules are where everyone gets confused about the perceived requirement for 200 cars be built every time a new part or parts were homologated.

Have a look at it from the fully imported car point of view. Imagine the XU1 was a foreign made fully imported car. This would have meant that 5,000 identical XU1's would have had to be made for every homologation and 100 of those 5,000 units sold in Australia.

It's all in the interpretation.

Hi S pack.

I think we are agreeing to agree here, but I stand corrected, I had no idea that the 'Evolution of Type' or 'Sporting Evolution' wording was used back then. BTW what year's rules are those that you have quoted ?

I don't think that this changes the basic idea of what we were discussing. As far as I can read into those rules (if we contain our discussion to locally built cars in 1972 Series Prod) you only needed to manufacture a total maximum of 200 cars to be allowed to race. If you made minor changes, e.g. another diff ratio, then this might come under an evolution allowance & you don't need to make another 200 complete cars to make the second ratio available, 50% (100 units) would be enough. I guess it's up to interpretation of the rules at the time as to what constitutes an 'evolution' & what is a new model.

Having said that any major change, e.g. wheel type, engine size (V8?) or say a 5-speed gearbox, wouldn't be just an evolution, you would need another 200 cars.

BTW, Richo is kidding with this 1973 thing, isn't he ?

Dr Terry

[xu2308]

Dr Terry
from what Leo the GMH Styling Guru said at the Torana Tough Book Launch, that he had photos of LJ Torana's with XU2 Decals on them, only he had them and no one else, says to me that XU2 was going to be used for LJ, but they must of not gone that root, i hope one day Leo lets these pics loose, so we get to see them, my guess the XU2 Decals are on the 3-V8 LJ GTR Prototypes in the pics that Leo has, as i know the White LJ GTR V8 Prototype had XU2 Decals on it, as the Service Garage Boss used to drive it around the White V8 LJ GTR Prototype, there is more to the XU2 name with LJ than we have been told.
AL

[S pack]

Hi S pack.

I think we are agreeing to agree here, but I stand corrected, I had no idea that the 'Evolution of Type' or 'Sporting Evolution' wording was used back then. BTW what year's rules are those that you have quoted ?

I don't think that this changes the basic idea of what we were discussing. As far as I can read into those rules (if we contain our discussion to locally built cars in 1972 Series Prod) you only needed to manufacture a total maximum of 200 cars to be allowed to race. If you made minor changes, e.g. another diff ratio, then this might come under an evolution allowance & you don't need to make another 200 complete cars to make the second ratio available, 50% (100 units) would be enough. I guess it's up to interpretation of the rules at the time as to what constitutes an 'evolution' & what is a new model.

Having said that any major change, e.g. wheel type, engine size (V8?) or say a 5-speed gearbox, wouldn't be just an evolution, you would need another 200 cars.

BTW, Richo is kidding with this 1973 thing, isn't he ?

Dr Terry

Group E - Series Production rules - late 1960's? up to and including 1972.
Group C (1973 on) were basically the same for Recognition, just the numbers were increased from 200 units to 500 units.

On the face of it when I first read the rules, I, like many others thought the rules meant that production of 200 cars for every parts homologation was required. I first started to question this when I realised that two of the homologation sheets were actually ERRATA's (rectification of clerical errors in the reporting of specifications). This made me think why would you have to build 200 cars just because a clerical error was made.

Upon many hours reflecting on the wording of the rules I came to the conclusion there was another interpretation of how the recognition rules can be read.

The rules clearly state an Australian manufacturer must make and sell a minimum of 200 basically identical units for recognition (Certificate of Description) to be granted.
The rules don't actually state that another 200 cars and another 200 cars, so on and so on have to be made for every homologation of new parts. All the rules state is that 50% of the minimum number of cars must be sold before any additional forms for "normal evolution of type" and "variant" will be approved.

I'm sure some people will disagree with my interpretation of the rules but the rules have grey areas that the manufacturers could exploit. I'm sure the popular interpretation is what CAMS intended but they didn't word the rules precisely enough.

It would seem that Richo is fixated on the V8 XU1 program being 1973, however I believe he knows the truth about it being 1972.
I think he just wants to shit stir wherever he can.

Cheers
Dave

Edited by S pack, 20 September 2012 - 03:54 PM.

[enderwigginau]

BTW what year's rules are those that you have quoted ?

I think we all agree on the 200 basic unit to be sold..........but remember, dealers need to buy vehicles from the manufacturer, so you provide sales contracts as evidence etc.....no cars need to have changed hands prior to racing hahahaha
There were no MAJOR changes in the switch to the V8 - MOST parts were readily available off the holden parts list (for want of a better term, from the parts bin, but not in the US NASCAR way.....) they weren't special parts made for the vehicles.
And parts homologation were different to the unit homologation........you've posted those sections before.......the basic (enhanced) 308 (like the 202) would have needed homologation, as only chevs were done for series production beforehand(150 random engine numbers were provided on a tech note to dealers as "official" proof 75% of the 202s were done before racing was commenced).........minimal numbers of special parts were required, nominally to be fitted to a production vehicle (not necessarily the special vehicles..........and we know numbers of certain parts were held back esp. For the factory teams....).....

[S pack]

I think we all agree on the 200 basic unit to be sold..........but remember, dealers need to buy vehicles from the manufacturer, so you provide sales contracts as evidence etc.....no cars need to have changed hands prior to racing hahahaha

Try the other way around. The manufacturers needed the Dealers to order the cars so they could attain the necessary proof of sales.

Edited by S pack, 20 September 2012 - 10:20 PM.

[enderwigginau]

New models are ordered well in advance.......and dealers work alot differently now than in the 70s........alot less corporate input these days, and the dealers now have to go it alone.......

[xu2308]

Dont read anything on (1973) LJ V8's anywhere you have been talking about Richo in that article u have posted. He says Mystical XU2 and that would mean the 1972 V8 LJ Cars, not 1973 V8 LJ's u talk about, game over Richo.

Edited by xu2308, 23 September 2012 - 10:00 PM.

[xu2308]

Or Richo they are talking about 1973 LH XU2 Torana's that became L34, not a batch of 1973 LJ V8's, as the V8 LJ was stopped by Holden in 1972.

[xu2308]

you dident read right, what we have all be telling you Richo, the heads for the V8 LJ would be 1972, and if heads were done for 1973 Torana's it would be LH XU2 Torana

[sagman]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[wot179]

This is what happens when cousins frOck.

[xu2308]

Richo it is fact the year was 1972, and the V8 LJ Program was stopped by Holden in 1972, so there was no 1973 V8 LJ's been planned in 1973, as GMH had stopped the V8 LJ Program in 1972, get it GMH stopped program in 1972. Only thing you have told us, looks like The Yella Terra Guru, was going to do the Heads for the Mystical XU2 and if it was 1973 like u are saying then its for LH XU2 Torana, get it Richo LH XU2, remember Richo that GMH was going to call LH Torana the XU2 as well

Edited by xu2308, 24 September 2012 - 09:36 AM.

[xu2308]

it is like that for sure when it comes to Richo lol

[yel327]

New models are ordered well in advance.......and dealers work alot differently now than in the 70s........alot less corporate input these days, and the dealers now have to go it alone.......

Not exactly Grant. Back then, and like today GMH built plant stock especially for a new series (so they have them on hand to sell at release). These were car combinations built from info gleaned from previous sales data. They basically built cars they thought they could sell, and they went into the rolling schedule with customer and dealer orders but ended up as plant stock. You can normally pick them in the service/warranty records by a gap between completion date and sales date. I've been seeing it a lot with run of the mill type HZ vans (eg 202 auto with no other options), they have a 3-6 month gap between finish and sale.

I agree with you it was easier back then to make special orders than it is today, and it was probably very different for the homologation vehicles as they needed them recorded so they could use the bits to race!

[wot179]

This is what happens when cousins frOck.

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