173 replies to this topic

[S pack]

OHIseeitallsoclearlynow.Itwasn'tGMHorFordorChryslerthatbuiltthefastestracecarintheworlditwasTheRace.
While I'm at it Richard I must congratulate your parents on the name they chose for you. I think it suits you perfectly!!!

[sagman]

That is only partly correct Richard , all were to deny it and everybody knew what they were building here in Oz , but in the context of what Joe rightly said at no stage when the cars were being built did GMH refer to any of them as Bathurst specials .......... why ?, because GM worldwide had a ban on being involved in motor racing .......... rallying and trials were a different matter and that is why the V8 LJ was disguised as an export vehicle.

The 79 page GMH engineering parts list for SERIES: LJ , GROUP NAME : SPECIAL EXPORT VEHICLE , GROUP NUMBER : 35 XW7 was PRODUCED on the 28/6/72 .

These cars were to be built in 1972 ,( not '73 !) and were literally almost ready to be built when the news paper article came out on the 25/6/72 and the then GMH GM pulled the plug on the 30/6/72 ............. yes only 2 days after the parts list was finalised.


Joe has NEVER said they did not build any cars that could be raced , only that they were not called BATHURST SPECIALS by Holden when they were BUILT.

How you have titled this thread in itself is a good example of how a sesational headline such as the "160 MPH SUPERCARS SOON " distorts the truth , Evan Green wrote 140 MPH not 160 MPH , that was the editor changing the wording to make a front page look better on a slow news day.( At a later point in time Evan was employed by Holden as PR guy.)

The reality is that a number of cars were available in Oz that could already better 140 mph like the Jaguars , Mercedes and other imports of the era.

The title of this thread is INCORRECT and very MISLEADING.

[enderwigginau]

Bathurst Special is a term coined by a magazine to beat up the models.
Nothing more nothing less.

All cars after each changeover date were 95% the same, so nominating a month or two production as specials is flawed.

No "Specials" were built bar those in styling and engineering or at the race team.
THIS is fact. And backed up by evidence and first hand acounts.

All the holes you are trying to fill from flawed publications and rumour have been sealed over the last ten years and in particular the last 2-3 yrs.

As has been previously noted, please spend some time reading the forum and discovering this info, or ask some questions, instead of continuing to provide erroneous info or shooting down others when they try and help you.

Should you only wish to antagonise the members here, be aware trolls are not welcoem and wear out their welcome fast.

Grant..
Admin Team

[sagman]

Richard , the newspaper heading was in referece to all three manufacturers as they could not keep everything hidden from journos , HDT fitted a 253 initially to an ex series production car , an LC and after a 308 (as has been said before) it was presented to Holden engineer Fred James , xmas '71 by Harry.

This car was driven around and to Bathurst Éaster '72 where it ran as a sports sedan and won where according to Harry it was clocked at 167 mph down conrod , it had a modified engine and that speed was recorded when Tony Roberts was driving it.

The car was taken to holden and looked at and the work was commenced on the V8 LJ project , remember 'export 'vehicle..so it was not to attract too much attention , at this time GMH were the Leaders in rallying in this country and Ford in South Africa had built a V8 engined Capri called the Perana which was highly successful in rallying. Ford were already building and competing with a V8 engined Torana size car overseas so it certainly could have been a possibility that this car could have come to Oz.

The work commenced as i have said before in late april '72 , the first engineering drawing is dated very early May '72 , the 3 rd in fact and is for the engine mountings . it is an instruction drawing for the' power plant mountings - front' and was drawn by GMH illustrator Ray Michalski ( who i have spoken with )

The cars were GTR's and yes richard they did exist and the the cars were sourced from the elizabeth plant in adelaide and went to experimental engineering where they were converted to V8's . Harry had an idea for what he wanted as the fuel tank system for the cars and that was based on his experience with the cortina GT 500 which used 2 fuel tanks , one gravity feeding the other , he had proposed to use two XU1 long range tanks but this did not fit in with the 'cars had to be built on a production line' reality. I had a long chat with Harry about the fuel tank/Tanks and why he was unhappy about the large single 38 gallon tank(36 useable) as this had put the weight up higher and all the way back to the rear of the car.

The orange car was finally sold by GMH in feb'75 and was still fitted with the 36/8 gall tank and twin fillers , it was however fitted with a QL 202 engine and when sold had 27,000 or so miles on the clock..

When the car was first registered in early sept. '72 , yes after the programme was canned ( as i said before at least officially) it had a QT 308 engine fitted ...... the vic roads rego papers Alan has obtained prove this.

The '72 cars that were raced at bathurst by HDT were specially built not just your regular off the shelf production line units , just the same as the other manufacturers were doing .

The XU1's built after the cancellation of the V8's had to use components that were homologated as a matter of urgency to upgrade the performance of the engines......... in a nutshell Holden were determined to win at Bathurst despite losing the Ace many had worked so hard to achieve.

[xu2308]

Richox1
Joe Felice said that there are no Bathurst Specials made, as in the Bathurst name, as GMH never ever called them Bathurst cars, it was the press and magazines of the day that COINED that name to them Cars, Even Fiv who wrote the GTR XU-1 Book, calls them Bathurst Specials, and us punters, believed the press at the time and car magazines into the 1980's and 1990's etc that the cars were Bathurst Special in name.
Its a good thing Joe has corrected this myth, as in the Bathurst Name was not used by GMH on the XU-1, Grant and larry have explained it very well above, maybe you have been Booboozled by jessy pic's and abit confused, it will pass

[dattoman]

I'd like to know how many Phase 3's also died in these incidents
And if the fuel crisis played any part in all this

[S pack]

the gtho phase 111 was a very safe car in its self, it was more a case of booze,dope,bad roads,poor tyres,no speed limits and lack of driving experience that got them into trouble...........hmmm not much has changed has it.

^^^ Too right, cars don't kill, it's the loose nut behind the wheel.
So what do we have today, family sedans that are as powerfull and/or more powerful than the supercars of the '70s, so go figure.
If it wasn't for improvements in braking, handling and lots of electronic gizmos to help keep people safe when they go beyond the limits of their driving ability there would be a hell of a lot more deaths on our roads.

[xu2308]

Richox1
the 308 V8 Mounts for the V8 LJ are different to the HQ 308 V8 Engine Mounts.
The Paint&Trim Tag on the Adelaide Built LJ GTR or Adelaide Built LJ XU-1 for early built LJ's
dont have Engine or Trans on the Paint&Trim Tag, i think that were on 1973 LJ Paint&Trim Tag later on.
So it would not have said L31 or 308 on the Tag, as the Tag in 1972 did not list engines or trans.

Edited by xu2308, 07 July 2012 - 02:13 PM.

[xu2308]

It would of had LJ Springs in the front not HQ ones, you would think Richox1, which pink lj are you talking about i put up, and 350 ?????????????

[xu2308]

No they dont but to get to the bottom of it all, the vin vearification of them from mane office melbourn Holden will vearifie a car chassie to a engine number

GMH Head office only have the Warranty Records that have the P.S.N Number (The Little Tag)
The P.S.N does not tell the Chassis Number on the Car, only the Car tells you that, but they do have most Engines listed on there
WARRANTY RECORDS at Head Office in Port Melbourne.

[xu2308]

The Barneys Shirt Pink/Lillac LJ XU-1, thats the pic you are on about
well it would of had standard Springs in it, when that pic was taken Richoman at Port Melbourne in early 1972 on the roof top of Holdens Experimental Engineering where they displayed the styling cars to the Head GMH Honcho's

[sagman]

Well Sagman that a lot to take in specaly the part about the 2 cars were taking from a production line as standed then mocked up so they do not bear the vin vearification of the 308 engine, that has got to be the worst thing in the history of the torana they ever did.
Now all there is to verifie them is a GMH illustration by Ray Michalski of a engine mount that dates the 3rd of may 72 that bears the same desine as the 70 HQ engine mount,mabe Hary should have used the design of twin tanks like the FX or FJ ute i think some of them had twin tanks mabe guys just fitted them themself.
Yes that speed test didnt they do that with the ford phase 3 to at one stage.
well a graite readup exsplaines a lot but realy did make me sad to see no 308 vin only an engine mount roled my eyes in dispear.

Richard , there are more engineering instruction drawings that cover the fittment, that was the first of them and bear in mind these were drawn as the cars were being fitted with the components , Ray was but one of the illustrators who did the drawings.

The latest date one i have is early June '72 although some have revision dates of later in June and some beyond so it is clear that testing continued and backs up the rego history and the pics of the car/s at motor racing events over the next 2 years plus

The date of the parts listing (28/6/72 ) also confirms the fact that components were all finalised but again there were some revisions for some parts at a later date , this also would suggest that prototyping and testing continued to occur despite the GMH press release , again that only says that GMH had decided not to build any XU1's with V8's ....... nothing about GTR's which is exactly what the 3 prototypes were.

GMH only admitted to testing a Çurrent model XU1 fitted with a modified V8 , that rules out the 3 GTR's and the V8 LC that Harry put together.

As for the '73 cars being a stronger built chassis / unibody , yes they were as mandated by the applicable ADR's at the relavent time ( Year) , the first of the LC's were bodied as LC000123A as an example as the ADR's changed so did the relative chassis no's. later '71 LC's were ALC000123A and so on.

The first lot of LJ's were ALJ000123A and as the ADR's changed again they became BLJ000123A etc.and there was another change which unified how the cars were being recorded as previously Adelaide and Bris had some different methods. There are plenty here on the forum who can better explain the way the numbers work.

Re the front springs , i doubt they would have been a HQ unit ( i have pulled springs out of a 350 statesman i used to have to do the old 'cut a couple of coils off trick ' as many on here would have done over the years , looking at the length of them and wondering how the f##k are they going back in! geez that was 30 years ago !) but it would have been a spring that was made to suit the weight of the car and more importantly a Torana.

Laz

[wot179]

Im sure this bloke is just here for a shitstir.