Ok, got the engine started this arvo with the new cam today. Initial start up went good, set the timing by ear first and then got the timing light on it to find the static timing was 60 degrees at idle. Ive got tdc mark straight on the flywheel so the mark is right on the outer edge for an accurate read. I'm using a snap on digital light. Tried two of them then an old Kmart brand one I had on the shelf with the same result? The engine sounds fine where it is and won't run if I try and put at 14 degrees that I wanted. I triple checked the tdc mark and it was originally marked with the head off and ive checked it with the screwdriver in the spark plug method so the marks right. What am I doing wrong? I've done this a thousand times before and not had this issue?? Maybe I need to wait till its dark and try again? That will make the neighbours happy with straight out pipes!
60 degrees static ignition timing?
Started by
_Bluejinx202_
, Dec 24 2012 07:06 PM
134 replies to this topic
#2
_Mint_
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Posted 24 December 2012 - 07:11 PM
with the cap off is the rotor pointing at no.1 tdc just a simple check..i presume this is holden 6 or v8?
#3
_Viper_
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Posted 24 December 2012 - 07:11 PM
Spark plug leads in the wrong order?
Or do you not have the timing light on #1
Or do you not have the timing light on #1
Edited by Viper, 24 December 2012 - 07:11 PM.
#5
_stretchlc_
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Posted 24 December 2012 - 07:52 PM
God that things sounds delicious!
#6
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Posted 24 December 2012 - 10:28 PM
You have the inductive pickup on the wrong lead.
#7
_robslxhatch_
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Posted 25 December 2012 - 07:30 PM
did you dial in the camshaft?? seems a bit far out to be that but if you are sure of TDC and you are on the right lead then the cam must be out !!
#8
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Posted 25 December 2012 - 08:07 PM
Double check your timing light is set up right .If it is ,Put the boat in the water ,tie it down on your trailer ,Leave the timing light in its box .You have your engine ready for the water dyno .Run it up in gear and load it up, adjust the timing as you go ,make sure it is not detonating while you do it .You will hear it when you get it right .Cut the timing back a bit when you have it singing to be sure you aren't too advanced .It is then what it is .Did the same on a injected boat engine I had and got it as good as it could be .You will be more than happy with the end result .Good luck
Bernie
Bernie
#9
_oldjohnno_
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Posted 26 December 2012 - 08:16 AM
You have the inductive pickup on the wrong lead.
Pretty unlikely. The firing intervals with a six are 120deg apart, so for the timing to show up at 60deg from the preceding cylinder (no 4) it'd have to be retarded so much I doubt it'd start.
did you dial in the camshaft?? seems a bit far out to be that but if you are sure of TDC and you are on the right lead then the cam must be out !!
Cam timing will have no effect. Even though the dissy is driven by the cam it's installed and timed independently of cam position.
Double check your timing light is set up right .If it is ,Put the boat in the water ,tie it down on your trailer ,Leave the timing light in its box .You have your engine ready for the water dyno .Run it up in gear and load it up, adjust the timing as you go ,make sure it is not detonating while you do it .You will hear it when you get it right .Cut the timing back a bit when you have it singing to be sure you aren't too advanced .It is then what it is .
I don't agree with the "it is what it is" approach and think it's important to know what the numbers are. All sorts of conditions can be masked by great gobs of advance and if you aren't aware that you're using so much advance you might never be aware of the underlying problems and never find the engines true potential. If a Holden six ever wanted more than low 30s I'd be looking very closely at it to find out what was holding it back.
I think what need to be done is first confirm that the engine is indeed firing at 60degrees. TDC has already been checked, the other marks should also be checked for accuracy (remembering that the flywheel rotates the opposite way to the balancer when viewed from the end). If that's OK I'd line up the marks at 60 (if that's where it's firing according to the timing light) and pop the dissy cap. The reluctor teeth should be almost perfectly aligned - the tips of the rotor teeth should be just past the stator teeth. If this checks ok then check the alignment of the rotor button with the cap. If the reluctor rotor teeth are sitting almost centred between the stator teeth it indicates that the pickup coil is connected backwards and if this is the case the cap-to-rotor phasing will be very bad as well. If there is any doubt about the ignition chuck a points'n'coil setup on it just to verify things. BTW you can connect the timing light to no 6 if it's more convenient; it'll read the same.
If it does turn out that the engine does indeed want 60 deg of spark lead (remembering that it will run just fine with huge amounts of lead with no load, I usually give em 45 or so when running in a cam at no-load just to stop cooking the headers) I'd be looking for other problems. Engines with very bad fuel distribution or mixture strength problems will nearly always run better with a big handful of advance, so it's possible that it's just a coverup for something else. But you really need to test it under some load to get a good idea.
#11
_Bluejinx202_
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Posted 26 December 2012 - 11:04 AM
Pretty unlikely. The firing intervals with a six are 120deg apart, so for the timing to show up at 60deg from the preceding cylinder (no 4) it'd have to be retarded so much I doubt it'd start.
Cam timing will have no effect. Even though the dissy is driven by the cam it's installed and timed independently of cam position.
I don't agree with the "it is what it is" approach and think it's important to know what the numbers are. All sorts of conditions can be masked by great gobs of advance and if you aren't aware that you're using so much advance you might never be aware of the underlying problems and never find the engines true potential. If a Holden six ever wanted more than low 30s I'd be looking very closely at it to find out what was holding it back.
I think what need to be done is first confirm that the engine is indeed firing at 60degrees. TDC has already been checked, the other marks should also be checked for accuracy (remembering that the flywheel rotates the opposite way to the balancer when viewed from the end). If that's OK I'd line up the marks at 60 (if that's where it's firing according to the timing light) and pop the dissy cap. The reluctor teeth should be almost perfectly aligned - the tips of the rotor teeth should be just past the stator teeth. If this checks ok then check the alignment of the rotor button with the cap. If the reluctor rotor teeth are sitting almost centred between the stator teeth it indicates that the pickup coil is connected backwards and if this is the case the cap-to-rotor phasing will be very bad as well. If there is any doubt about the ignition chuck a points'n'coil setup on it just to verify things. BTW you can connect the timing light to no 6 if it's more convenient; it'll read the same.
If it does turn out that the engine does indeed want 60 deg of spark lead (remembering that it will run just fine with huge amounts of lead with no load, I usually give em 45 or so when running in a cam at no-load just to stop cooking the headers) I'd be looking for other problems. Engines with very bad fuel distribution or mixture strength problems will nearly always run better with a big handful of advance, so it's possible that it's just a coverup for something else. But you really need to test it under some load to get a good idea.
This is 60 deg where the engine is happy to idle and free rev.
This is the fly wheel with the 60 deg mark lined up, you can see the tdc below.
If I didn't have a timing light I'd never know I had an issue, the engine sounds like its running great.
Ps, this is not the comp cam, I pulled the old engine out as it needs other work than just the cam swapped and just put in the inj engine with the top end from the old one (9 port)to run the 4 barrel and x2 headers. This has a wade 949a (262@50, 105LSA) in it so it's pretty grumpy and difficult to get a spot on read with the light
#12
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Posted 26 December 2012 - 11:13 AM
This is dissy at TDC
#13
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Posted 26 December 2012 - 11:16 AM
This is 60 deg where the engine is happy to idle and free rev.
It looks like the reverse to me, fading memory tells me when the scribe mark lines up that is TDC (on the compression stroke) on No.1 cylinder.
#14
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Posted 26 December 2012 - 11:20 AM
It's hard to see in this vid but at least it shows the engine idling and running ok, I didnt think it would run or even start at this timing. My hunch is its not really 60 deg, but I'm scratching my head to come up with an answer to explain where I've gone wring
#15
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Posted 26 December 2012 - 11:24 AM
Are you running the light off the cylinder closest to the bow?
#16
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Posted 26 December 2012 - 11:32 AM
Honestly don't know WTF you've got going on with your engine but by this pic your rotor button is closer to firing No 5 not No1at TDC. Looking at your vid the timing mark is moving around wildly. Your spark may be jumping to both lead posts in the cap at the same time. If I'm reading it correctly the pic indicates your way retarded on No1 and advanced on No5 
Edited by S pack, 26 December 2012 - 11:34 AM.
#17
_oldjohnno_
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Posted 26 December 2012 - 11:42 AM
That pic is at TDC Dave, well after firing. Everything is ok and working as it should. It's not unusual for this cam and induction combo to want so much lead at no-load, especially if the part-throttle distribution is dodgy, which is very likely.
The best compromise with this combo would be to lock out the centrifugal advance and set the timing at 32 -34 degrees. It should still start OK and run as good as it ever will under load. It wont have as much advance as it would like at idle but it'll drive ok.
The best compromise with this combo would be to lock out the centrifugal advance and set the timing at 32 -34 degrees. It should still start OK and run as good as it ever will under load. It wont have as much advance as it would like at idle but it'll drive ok.
#18
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Posted 26 December 2012 - 12:02 PM
Still getting my bwain around it John (too much Xmas cheer) but I think I'm getting what you mean.
Dave.
Dave.
#19
_Bluejinx202_
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Posted 26 December 2012 - 12:14 PM
That pic is at TDC Dave, well after firing. Everything is ok and working as it should. It's not unusual for this cam and induction combo to want so much lead at no-load, especially if the part-throttle distribution is dodgy, which is very likely.
The best compromise with this combo would be to lock out the centrifugal advance and set the timing at 32 -34 degrees. It should still start OK and run as good as it ever will under load. It wont have as much advance as it would like at idle but it'll drive ok.
I'm not sure I get what mean? Lock the advance off and run it at 32 all over the rev range? Pretty sure that it'll ping it's ass off at low revs with the throttle down? Then again... I didn't think it'd idle where it is either so what do I know?
#20
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Posted 26 December 2012 - 12:50 PM
I'm not sure I get what mean? Lock the advance off and run it at 32 all over the rev range? Pretty sure that it'll ping it's ass off at low revs with the throttle down? Then again... I didn't think it'd idle where it is either so what do I know?
If you're nervous about running it locked just set the initial at the minimum where it still starts and idles OK (I'm guessing around 20-25 degrees) and total of around 32. But at that it's only going to be about 10degrees from a locked dissy anyway. It's always going to want a lot of lead with that cam and intake - at low speeds and throttle openings it'll be running on nearly straight exhaust gas...
#21
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Posted 26 December 2012 - 02:52 PM
Someone stole your points
#22
_Bomber Watson_
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Posted 26 December 2012 - 03:01 PM
Didnt delco steal them like 30 years ago?
#23
_oldjohnno_
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Posted 26 December 2012 - 03:40 PM
Someone stole your points
My god you're right! And the generator's gone too! Lock up your Lucas gear fellas, who knows where he'll strike next.
#24
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Posted 26 December 2012 - 05:25 PM
Having watched the video the spark seems all over the place. The last two engines I put a timing light on that looked like that had lose advance mechanisms that were flopping around (and other problems) and were cured by repairing same.
#25
_robslxhatch_
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Posted 27 December 2012 - 05:49 AM
yes but when running the motor with the cam out a few degrees ignition timing has to be advanced or retarded to suit . The last holden 6 i had that had incorrect cam timing i could not get to run below 10 degrees btdc and ran best at 30 btdcPretty unlikely. The firing intervals with a six are 120deg apart, so for the timing to show up at 60deg from the preceding cylinder (no 4) it'd have to be retarded so much I doubt it'd start.
Cam timing will have no effect. Even though the dissy is driven by the cam it's installed and timed independently of cam position.
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