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60 degrees static ignition timing?

Started by _Bluejinx202_ , Dec 24 2012 07:06 PM

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134 replies to this topic

#26 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 06:32 AM

yes but when running the motor with the cam out a few degrees ignition timing has to be advanced or retarded to suit . The last holden 6 i had that had incorrect cam timing i could not get to run below 10 degrees btdc and ran best at 30 btdc

Sorry Rob I misunderstood. It kind of underlines the point though that if it wants lots of advance it's a sign that something else isn't quite right.

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#27 _red roar_

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 06:52 AM

Have you tried a different distributor?

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#28 _Bluejinx202_

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 09:27 AM

yes but when running the motor with the cam out a few degrees ignition timing has to be advanced or retarded to suit . The last holden 6 i had that had incorrect cam timing i could not get to run below 10 degrees btdc and ran best at 30 btdc

This engine was running last with a 6 throttle efi setup and in its map had 10 deg idle, 14 deg with min throttle applied, and total 32. It was dyno tuned at csv in mildura and produced 227rwhp. The cam hasnt been moved just swapped heads to a 9 port and running a carb. I thought I was going to set it at 14 static and total 32, which is what that dissys graphed to.
I reved it up yesterday to 6000 on the trailer and still sounds fine. No load admittedly, but I didn't check it on a light but it should've gone to 78 deg total with 18 in the dissy. I still don't believe it would be run as well as it does and be firing when the piston is half way coming up the cyl. I'm still trying to work out what's wrong with my timing procedure more than if the engine is enjoying that much advance. Even old johnno is only saying low 30's not 60-70+ deg.

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#29 TerrA LX

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 09:49 AM

...

Edited by TerrA LX, 27 December 2012 - 09:49 AM.

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#30 _Bluejinx202_

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 10:12 AM

Have you tried a different distributor?

Two distributers, 3 timing lights... Even had my local engine builder come over with he's gear and left scratching head.

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#31 _Bluejinx202_

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 10:16 AM

Any tips for locking off a dissy. I have a spare, but would be good to be able to change it back so I can have it graphed with a differant curve and use as an alternative when tuning like I have in the past.

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#32 EunUCh

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 10:47 AM

Just a stab in the dark but could it be that you are taking a timming reading
off the peripheral of the flywheel rather than where it is normally taken near the
balancer.
Draw 2 circles,one inside the other,small circle is balancer with timming mark,big circle is flywheel
mark a couple of lines just outside the small circle to represent marks on timming cover and a mark
on small circle to represent mark on balancer,draw it so that 2 lines line up.
Now draw a straight line across the diamater of both circles,through the centre point.
Now imagine that you have moved dizzy to gain 4deg advance,now draw another line through diamater
of both circles.
I could be wrong again but I get a a rather large difference in space between the lines at the outer
edge of the flywheel circle compared to the timming marks just outside the inner circle.

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#33 _stretchlc_

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 12:01 PM

Just a stab in the dark but could it be that you are taking a timming reading
off the peripheral of the flywheel rather than where it is normally taken near the
balancer.
Draw 2 circles,one inside the other,small circle is balancer with timming mark,big circle is flywheel
mark a couple of lines just outside the small circle to represent marks on timming cover and a mark
on small circle to represent mark on balancer,draw it so that 2 lines line up.
Now draw a straight line across the diamater of both circles,through the centre point.
Now imagine that you have moved dizzy to gain 4deg advance,now draw another line through diamater
of both circles.
I could be wrong again but I get a a rather large difference in space between the lines at the outer
edge of the flywheel circle compared to the timming marks just outside the inner circle.

I was thinking the same thing last night after reading all this..............I think you are on to something here!

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#34 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 12:18 PM

This engine was running last with a 6 throttle efi setup and in its map had 10 deg idle, 14 deg with min throttle applied, and total 32. It was dyno tuned at csv in mildura and produced 227rwhp. The cam hasnt been moved just swapped heads to a 9 port and running a carb. I thought I was going to set it at 14 static and total 32, which is what that dissys graphed to.
I reved it up yesterday to 6000 on the trailer and still sounds fine. No load admittedly, but I didn't check it on a light but it should've gone to 78 deg total with 18 in the dissy. I still don't believe it would be run as well as it does and be firing when the piston is half way coming up the cyl. I'm still trying to work out what's wrong with my timing procedure more than if the engine is enjoying that much advance. Even old johnno is only saying low 30's not 60-70+ deg.

There's nothing wrong with your timing procedure, I think you're looking for a problem that doesn't exist. It's perfectly normal for an engine like this to tolerate a massive amount of spark lead under no load. Hell, a lot of those old hemi drag motors would want well over 50 at full load. Remember in a previous post I said that it's not unusual for this cam and intake combo to want a lot of advance at light throttle? The reason for this is that all the intake runners are interconnected, and when a long overlap cam like yours is used there's a hell of a lot of exhaust pulled back into the plenum whenever an exhaust valve is open (and thats nearly all the time). With your old EFI setup each runner is isolated from the rest, so even at idle or very light throttle there's much, much less exhaust reversion. Hence the need for much less idle advance with the EFI.

As I said before, just give it the minimum it needs to start and idle, and low 30s total. Or just lock it at 30 odd. Then chuck it in the water and it will run fine.

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#35 _Bluejinx202_

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 03:21 PM

Thanks for all the interest, help and reply's. Finally I think I've made some progress. I went out this arvo armed with a screwdriver, a 9/16 spanner, and a timing light. I fired the thing up at its happy 60 deg and started to wind it back down. I got to 50 degrees and the engine stalled, so I grabbed the carb and gave it a heap of fuel and hit the key again and against its will it finally started, I walked over the other side cranked she dissy again and the same thing happened but again, after clearing out its lungs it started and idled ( even I it is at 1300 with idle screw just about maxxed out) I think now after this session, and that I have got it to idle at 18deg and max out at 33 (my neighbours must love me by the way, my neighbours in the next street as well, when I held her at 5500 with straight out pipes tuning the max adv.) after thinking about what old Johno said I think I may have been blowing fuel and air though the intake at reasonable engine speed for the engine to clear out its exhaust gasses and have a chance to idle and the new ignition timing. I'm no expert really so I'm just going to accept that it's right now and I'll go out this weekend and rev it up on the water and report back on this thread to let you guys know how it went...

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#36 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 06:14 PM

I don't know how warm the engine was when you set the timing but it might be worth mentioning that single Holleys on a cammed six are very sensitive to temperature, at least at idle and just off idle. If you set the timing and mixture when the engine is still a bit coolish you'll end up with lots of advance and lots of fuel going in. Then once it warms up it'll be overadvanced and it'll load up with fuel and foul plugs. So you really need to make sure it's pretty warm before you do the timing and mixture, and even then I like to set the idle mixture quite lean. It'll be a pig when it's cold (especially if you've hacked the choke tower off!) but at least it'll keep the plugs clean and won't load up and lope no matter how hot it gets.

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#37 _Bluejinx202_

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:15 PM

Water test today, I exceeded my target of 55 mph and wound it up to 56.5 @5500. At first I thought it was no good as it wouldn't accelerate and took ages to get up to 5000rpm. Against my instincts, I gave the dissy a nudge of advance and tried again. The engine came alive and reved clean and strong up to full speed. When I got home I checked it and turns out to be around 35 deg total it hasn't pinged yet and possibly could use some more timjng, but been this time of year I want to start to get some use out of the thing so I decided to not risk a head gasket and just enjoy it for a while.

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#38 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 09:07 AM

I think this engine would benefit from annular discharge boosters (I'm assuming it has regular downleg boosters atm). Along with wide plug gaps and lots of ignition energy it would help crutch the poor fueling and would probably reduce the amount of spark lead required. Might get you a couple more mph too.

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#39 _tryhard_

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 10:45 PM

what did you do with your injection is it for sale and have you any pics of it on motor

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#40 _Bluejinx202_

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 09:40 AM

I've still got the injection and the motec stuff in a box. I just borrowed the bottom end from that engine to try and isolate some issues as that boat is my "go faster boat" but it's being stripped and re painted, I'm playing around with the old one with the carby at the moment but when I get the big one up and running again the carbied one will get a tamed down engine and the injected one will have a roller cammed alloy 12 port engine. Just need the wife to sign some more cheques for me!

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#41 _Bluejinx202_

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 09:54 AM

I think this engine would benefit from annular discharge boosters (I'm assuming it has regular downleg boosters atm). Along with wide plug gaps and lots of ignition energy it would help crutch the poor fueling and would probably reduce the amount of spark lead required. Might get you a couple more mph too.

I spoke to my machinist/head guy about the annular discharge and he didn't seem to think it was an option for that carby (it's a 570 street avenger Holley) he did say to bring the carby down and there is some modification that we can do to the boosters to break up the fuel a bit more though so I'll take the carb down and see what he means. I installed a tel-tac digital memory tacho this week and finding that the display stays nice and constant and presumably accurate until 5000 when it then starts displaying all sorts of figures, it just flashes 5000-6200-5700-5100 etc... When the engine is purring constantly at 5300 on the needle tacho ( which is waving around a little too, always put it down to vibration etc) is this interference or have I got some ignition issues as really swapping engines and adding 20deg @50 has only really picked up some torque and a couple of hundred revs max. Don't get me wrong it's going good, but other seacraft guys I know are still revving into the sixes with much smaller camshafts. So an ignition upgrade might be nescassary. I might look at swapping a coil, and module maybe running a wire straight from the battery to the coil and see if I can make any progress

Edited by Bluejinx202, 02 January 2013 - 09:56 AM.

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#42 _Ned Loh_

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:57 AM

...and adding 20deg @50 has only really picked up some torque and a couple of hundred revs max. Don't get me wrong it's going good, but other seacraft guys I know are still revving into the sixes with much smaller camshafts. So an ignition upgrade might be nescassary. I might look at swapping a coil, and module maybe running a wire straight from the battery to the coil and see if I can make any progress

Hi,

My 2 cents - 20 degrees @ 0.050 is significant enough that (with no other changes and all else in order and up to the task) you should drop torque in the lower RPMS (say under 5000), and move HP up at least 500rpm if not closer to 1000rpm or a bit under. All else being in order and up to the task, there is just no way that 262 @ 0.050 shouldn't be peaking well into the sixes.

Did you look into the 'gearing' as Oldjohnno suggested in another thread? (comp cams thread maybe?)

Cheers.

Edited by Ned Loh, 02 January 2013 - 11:57 AM.

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#43 _Bomber Watson_

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 02:03 PM

I spoke to my machinist/head guy about the annular discharge and he didn't seem to think it was an option for that carby (it's a 570 street avenger Holley) he did say to bring the carby down and there is some modification that we can do to the boosters to break up the fuel a bit more though so I'll take the carb down and see what he means.

You probably dont want to change carbs, but i was holding a 590 BG yesterday and it had annular boosters....Aa option.

Im gonna assume your carb guy is just gonna step them?

Cheers.

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#44 _Bluejinx202_

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:25 PM

Did you look into the 'gearing' as Oldjohnno suggested in another thread? (comp cams thread maybe?)

Cheers.

I'm only using an 11X12 prop which is pretty small. Before I swapped the engine I got a prop out of a box and bolted it on, I found a quiet bank on the river and left my trailer half in the water went for a run the pulled the boat up and out, got out my cordless angle grinder with a flap disk and cut 1mm of each blade, I did this over and over and over till the speed dropped off but the revs never raised much and that props a paper weight.

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#45 _Ned Loh_

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 06:46 AM

I'm only using an 11X12 prop which is pretty small. Before I swapped the engine I got a prop out of a box and bolted it on, I found a quiet bank on the river and left my trailer half in the water went for a run the pulled the boat up and out, got out my cordless angle grinder with a flap disk and cut 1mm of each blade, I did this over and over and over till the speed dropped off but the revs never raised much and that props a paper weight.

What about pitch? I know nothing about boats, so if the way you decribed is how it's done, then it's done.

Actually, one advantage of the boat is that you can test it relatively easily without being on the wrong side of the law. If I went up and down princess highway tweaking a bit here and a bit there, I reckon the cops would be there before the job was done!

Do the guys running into the sixes have more mph than you? Do you know what cams they run?

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#46 _Bluejinx202_

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 09:43 AM

What about pitch? I know nothing about boats, so if the way you decribed is how it's done, then it's done.

Actually, one advantage of the boat is that you can test it relatively easily without being on the wrong side of the law. If I went up and down princess highway tweaking a bit here and a bit there, I reckon the cops would be there before the job was done!

Do the guys running into the sixes have more mph than you? Do you know what cams they run?

11X12 is 11 inch diameter and 12 inches of pitch.

Other guys I know well enough to that they give me their cam specs are basically
- 243@50 giving 55 mph @ 6000 rpm, these guys have same top speed but can accel quicker because their revs are higher out of turns.
-267@50 with triples giving 66 mph @ 6800 (full race setup, 298hp though)
My engine feels good up till its 5000 wall. The extra cam got it to pull to about 300-400rpm and 3-4mph.
The prop is thought to be pretty good and matches the 66 mph boys up to 56, myself and my friendly competion would think 60 mph @ 6200 would have been a fair and reasonable target for an engine that's 265@50, over 11:1, 290hp head and a 4bbl on aussiespeeds latest casting.

Looking online at some ignition setups. The ice system on eBay, one is $1100 one is $1400 seems a big investment and I don't want to spend that unless it really is the only thing I really need to get results. The other is on the AT racing world has a Pro billet dissy/Csi/coil kit (6al) for $350, and the same dissy with a 6al and coil kit for $415. Any advice on any of these products? The ice stuff looks good but pricey and looks easy to change curves, can the same be said for the systems at half the price? What's the extra $75 for with the pro billet options? Csi vs 6al? I have no idea about this stuff it's all new to me as I've had a vk setup for aged and never thought it needed upgrading (as my mates 298 hp uses a vk setup) but I'm getting a bit desperate....

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#47 _stretchlc_

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 09:52 AM

AT RAcing sell Procomp junk!

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#48 _Ned Loh_

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:22 AM

I doubt ignition is the "5000 wall" if you have a bosch HEI in good working order. FWIW I run one of these http://www.cranecams.com/390-391.pdf and the LX92 coil. It was relatively cheap. I only bought it as the autronic I had at the time did not have a dwell board, but have since run it with webers and found the low RPM multi spark to be great for starting and burning shitty fuel mixtures down low. A bit of a sin, but in the real worls who cares.

If you are chasing the ignition side of things I'd highly recommend calling Performance Ignition Services in Nunawading and have a chat with them.

What's the exhaust system like?

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#49 _Bluejinx202_

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:47 AM

What's the exhaust system like?

Probably due for upgrade, X2 cast headers, twin 1,5/8 into 3" outlet.

With the fireball thing, does that control ignition timing (static to max curve) or do you still have to play with springs and weights. It's not something I do myself I get my dissies graphed by Jerry at ignition torque in bayswater, but the motec stuff is excellent for me, it would be ideal to have similar tuning capabilities with the carbed engine.

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#50 _Ned Loh_

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 12:12 PM

I have no experience of X2 headers so can't comment. Someone reading this may know more? I'd be looking into this before dropping money on an ICE ignition or whatever. That is not to say that ICE don't make good gear, by all accounts they do a great job.

The fireball doesn't control the timing curve, the dizzy is still there for that. Does Jerry at ignition torque think that spark could be your "5000 wall"? As I said in my previous post, I doubt it, but Jerry at your ignition co. is probably smarter than me, and the guys at Performance Ignition Services certainly are (smarter than me).

Yes, the Motec stuff is excellent from what I a have seen, but my wallet isn't fat enough to own any of it.