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Help! 308 running hot

Started by _76S.L.R_ , Jan 02 2013 05:32 PM

New alloy radiator

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226 replies to this topic

#51 _torbirdie_

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 09:58 PM

Would a faulty Radiator Cap cause Overheating??,ive not changed it out for a long time. I gotta take that new Thermostat back tomorrow and get another one, Maybe a 70 degree one as suggested above??.

Are you losing any coolant, do the hoses not have any pressure in them( feel solid when squeezed)? If not your cap sounds okay. If it were not releasing pressure then it will be released somewhere else in your system, you'd know about that when that occurs.

Pressure in the system won't make it run any cooler, just raises the temp at which it keeps the coolant in liquid form.

13-15 psi if you are just running straight water.

Running a different temp thermostat isn't going to make any difference to an overheat prob. whether you run , 60, 70, 80 or 90 C, they will be all wide open at 95C.

Unless the rings are very tight, wouldn't go lower than 80

Edited by torbirdie, 03 January 2013 - 10:10 PM.

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#52 _The Baron_

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:30 PM

actually, no....

http://www.gmh-toran...hl__ longwinded

Ah, so in your case it was a radiator full of scale. But I am sure there was a conversation you were heavily envolved in about the impeller type turning out to being the issue. May have been someone else's car.

Edited by The Baron, 03 January 2013 - 10:30 PM.

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#53 REDA9X

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:50 PM

THere probably was a conversation somewhere like that Darky, I did a lot of research into it. i had a video where various pumps were tested against a perspex background so you could see the pump cavitate at various revs. I had 4 of those GMB pumps pull the bearing out in the early 90's as they had all been manufactured incorrectly, problem solved with a genuine Holden one.

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#54 _76S.L.R_

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:52 PM

No the Hoses were not realy pressurized,I checked.

I'm Running Toyota Coolant.

I have a Recovery System.

It looses a little coolant out the overflow bottle, we did the Head Gaskets about 2 years ago and the car has done hardly any driving at all,I checked for Bad Head Gasket using my TEE KAY Head Gasket Checker though I suspect its not a foolproof method http://precisiontool...k-head-check/54 if I put the new thermostat in and running this new correct pump and it still overheats then I could only conclude that it is indeed some head gasket issue??

I have another radiator cap, it came with the Alloy Radiator,it says 1.1 on it so I'm asuming that's 1.1 bar? ( 15.9 Psi).

The situation where that new Thermostat didnt open more than 5mm,Ive had this happen before with a new Thermostat= Is this a common thing.....for new Thermostats to not be functioning correctly???

FORGOT TO ASK= Should I be changing out that Thermo Fan Sensor to another one so they kick on before they get to 95 degrees as the current one does?

Edited by 76S.L.R, 03 January 2013 - 11:01 PM.

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#55 _torbirdie_

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:02 PM

No the Hoses were not realy pressurized,I checked.

I'm Running Toyota coolant

There will only be pressure in the system when it is hot, which is due to the coolant expanding.
Depending on -% of glycol in your system you can run slightly lower pressures. Up to 1.1 bar is as High as you want or ned to go

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#56 lx308

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:20 PM

While I don't think this will sort your issue, I used to cut the centre out of the thermostats when trying to keep 351 Fords cool in the NT. Back before they imposed the speed limits. Used to work a treat on them.

Edited by lx308, 03 January 2013 - 11:20 PM.

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#57 S pack

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:36 AM

No the Hoses were not realy pressurized,I checked.

we did the Head Gaskets about 2 years ago and the car has done hardly any driving at all,I checked for Bad Head Gasket using my TEE KAY Head Gasket Checker though I suspect its not a foolproof method http://precisiontool...k-head-check/54 if I put the new thermostat in and running this new correct pump and it still overheats then I could only conclude that it is indeed some head gasket issue??

Ok, so were there any indications that this presumed overly hot running condition was evident in the small amount of driving done immediately after the head gaskets were re[placed?

The reason I ask is, it is quite easy on the 253 & 308 to inadvertently install an inlet manifold to cylinder head gasket the wrong way around and block off the water passage from one of the heads to the manifold. Been there and done that myself. Spent hours and hours trying to work out why the damn thing was running so hot and it was the last thing we thought to check.

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#58 _The Baron_

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 08:31 AM

There will only be pressure in the system when it is hot, which is due to the coolant expanding.
Depending on -% of glycol in your system you can run slightly lower pressures. Up to 1.1 bar is as High as you want or ned to go

OMG torbirdie is human after all........

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#59 REDA9X

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:25 AM

OMG torbirdie is human after all........

We need a like button

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#60 TerrA LX

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:40 AM

There will only be pressure in the system when it is hot, which is due to the coolant expanding.

Well actually, to clarify, it is due to the system being sealed, expanding coolant, in it's self does not create pressure hehe.

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#61 _torbirdie_

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:56 AM

Well actually, to clarify, it is due to the system being sealed, expanding coolant, in it's self does not create pressure hehe.

Im sorry, that is just plain wrong. Sealing the system by itself wont create pressure, try putting a lid on a jar and see if that increases the pressure inside. Of course you need other factors), surely even the most challenged would anticipate that for the system pressure to increase the rad cap would need to be in place and I didn' t think it needed mentioning?

If the system is totally full of coolant, as it is in many recovery systems, then the system does become pressurised due to the coolant expanding when heated. For systems that aren't completely full its the remaining air inside that becomes hotter and hence increases the pressure.

Edited by torbirdie, 04 January 2013 - 10:01 AM.

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#62 _torbirdie_

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:04 AM

OMG torbirdie is human after all........

friggin ipad has a mind of its own.

But you guys missed your chance in post #36, in the context, writing its instead of it's should have had the lynch mob going rabid

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#63 S pack

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:41 PM

For systems that aren't completely full its the remaining air inside that becomes hotter and hence increases the pressure.

And if the amount of air in the system isn't excessive then the heated and expanding coolant will force the air out through the radiator cap (if the cap is the highest point in the cooling system) and when the system cools down again air will be sucked back into the cooling system if a suitably filled recovery bottle isn't fitted.

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#64 _76S.L.R_

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:50 PM

I just spoke to a rep at Tridon about the NEW Thermostat not opening?, He said he use to be a mechanic and that buy pouring boiling water over the thermostat it wont fully open anyways because its not under any pressure and that after you pour that hot water out the kettle its starting to cool down anyways. I can usually get them to open right up though by pouring Hot Water on them!??, I told him this one only opens about 5mm and he said thats normal cause its not being tested under the correct conditions.

Went on to say all returns they have had from Thermostats ended up all working and that the Customers cars all had other underlying problems?, so I dunno if I should believe all this and fit it or try return it?, the old I know opens up at least..

Edited by 76S.L.R, 04 January 2013 - 02:01 PM.

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#65 S pack

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 02:31 PM

I just spoke to a rep at Tridon about the NEW Thermostat not opening?, He said that by pouring boiling water over the thermostat it wont fully open anyways because its not under any pressure.

The commonly recognised method of testing a thermostat is to suspend it in water, then heat the water and with the aid of a thermometer check at what temp the thermostat starts to open. Most thermostats will be fully open before the water boils at 99 deg C at atmospheric pressure.

Modern engines do run hotter, so it may be possible that there are thermostats that don't open fully until over 99 deg C, which would require the testing vessel to be pressurised to achieve higher water temps.

I would agree that if your 160A stamped thermostat is fully opened in boiling water it would be safe to assume it is at least operating. Whether or not it is starting to open at the rated temp and is fully open at approx 10 deg C above the opening temp is another question. I'm assuming 160A = 160 deg Fahrenheit.

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#66 _torbirdie_

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 03:41 PM

Modern engines do run hotter, so it may be possible that there are thermostats that don't open fully until over 99 deg C, which would require the testing vessel to be pressurised to achieve higher water temps.

that would be a lot of expense and trouble to go to, and it would need to be glass so you could see in it! just use a higher boiling pt liquid.........cooking oil....cheap as chips and will fry them too! wont leave a nasty after taste in the saucepan like glycol either.

To the OP: In regards to water pressure opening up the stat further?, doesnt the valve move in the opposite direction to the water flow anyway?
Should be able to make it move to fully open with some additional finger pressure when it gets to the correct temp or is it fairly stuck in its 5mm position?

Edited by torbirdie, 04 January 2013 - 03:47 PM.

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#67 _Ozzie Picker_

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 03:51 PM

My 308 has never run hot ,but i have not had a gauge for the last 10 years or more,hehehe.

The engine is a injected 308 with a cam and flat tops,I do a very lot of towing of cars and has never busted hoses and cooked.Maybe ignore the gauge and if it doesn,t smell hot keep on rolling.

As already said, start with the basics,thermostat,water pump ,timing, i have seen harmonic balances and timing chain sets marked incorrectly,and try and borrow one of those infra red beam gun things and point to all parts of cooling system and block for an accurate temp reading.

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#68 _76S.L.R_

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 03:53 PM

I bought a Thermometer from a cooking shop = Both my Thermostats start to open and drop off the Feeler Gauge at 90 c .....though the Thermostat says 82c on it,( in water in a pot on the stove, suspended in the water via the thinnest Feeler Guage)

Edited by 76S.L.R, 04 January 2013 - 03:54 PM.

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#69 _torbirdie_

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 04:08 PM

To the OP: In regards to water pressure opening up the stat further?, doesnt the valve move in the opposite direction to the water flow anyway?
Should be able to make it move to fully open with some additional finger pressure when it gets to the correct temp or is it fairly stuck in its 5mm position?

I think I have taken what the tridon rep said too literally. I dont think he was referring to the stat being under water pressure in a car system, but being completely submerged in the water when you test it.

I agree, just pouring boiling water over them is not a very good test. Yes, just pouring boiling water 10cm through the air will take nearly 10C off it.
Whilst your test may work with other thermostats, the expansion material used in the tridon may not respond as quickly as other stats.

Edited by torbirdie, 04 January 2013 - 04:08 PM.

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#70 _The Baron_

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 04:31 PM

Well it would seem the thermostat is opening so maybe we can tick that one off?

It was raised earlier by MustardGTR, are you running the factory gauge and sender? There have been a number of cases of the wrong sender being fitted with the factory gauge. Even the VDO cattledog had the wrong number listed.

The correct VDO sender (part # 320.003 which is marked on it) which has a blue insulator, the VDO with the black insulator is definitely the wrong one

However, to be more confusing, I have also been lead to believe the factory fitted sender has a black insulator but I am not sure as I have not seen such a beast. Someone here may clarify this??

Either way, if it does not have the VDO sender (part # 320.003 ) with a blue insulator, have a closer look. A VDO sender with any other 320.00_ number should be treated as suss.

Edited by The Baron, 04 January 2013 - 04:41 PM.

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#71 _76S.L.R_

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 05:09 PM

I have an Aftermarket Gauge im not running the factory Gauge and sender, I have one of those Matrix ones ( mine reads in C not F) closest link I could find to mine is here

https://www.american...t&option=GM02WT

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#72 S pack

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 06:03 PM

I think I have taken what the tridon rep said too literally. I dont think he was referring to the stat being under water pressure in a car system, but being completely submerged in the water when you test it.

I believe you've still missed the Tridon reps point about pressure.

You're on the right track with your suggestion of using a liquid that has a higher boiling point than water at atmospheric pressure to test the thermostat, rather than my suggestion of needing a pressure vessel to raise the boiling point of the water to achieve a temp high enough to fully open the thermostat.

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#73 _76S.L.R_

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 06:27 PM

Right I finally have the car back together again with
NEW CORRECT IMPELLER PUMP.
NEW BOTTOM RADIATOR HOSE.
NEW TESTED AND WORKING THERMOSTAT.

I start the car up and rev it with the Radiator cap off, motor still cold = I can not see the coolant move at all when I rev it and look in the radiator??? I know you see it flow about a lot when Thermostat opens but shouldnt it be moving about when its cold too??!! HELP

Edited by 76S.L.R, 04 January 2013 - 06:29 PM.

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#74 REDA9X

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 06:30 PM

I don't suppose by some stupid chance the fans are spinning the wrong way? I've seen it done before

Right I finally have the car back together again with
NEW CORRECT IMPELLER PUMP.
NEW BOTTOM RADIATOR HOSE.
NEW TESTED AND WORKING THERMOSTAT.

I start the car up and rev it with the Radiator cap off, motor still cold = I can not see the coolant move at all when I rev it and look in the radiator??? I know you see it flow about a lot when Thermostat opens but shouldnt it be moving about when its cold too??!! HELP

No, not till the thermostat opens

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#75 S pack

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 06:41 PM

Let it idle for a while to warm up with the cap off, when the thermostat opens you will see the coolant start to move and as it warms further it will rise up and overflow.