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Help! 308 running hot

Started by _76S.L.R_ , Jan 02 2013 05:32 PM

New alloy radiator

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226 replies to this topic

#76 _torbirdie_

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 06:43 PM

I believe you've still missed the Tridon reps point about pressure.

Would you like to point it out then, it would appear to me that his definition of pressure was just making sure it was completely immersed.

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#77 _76S.L.R_

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 06:48 PM

The way Understood the rep's conversation was that he meant that the Thermostat has to be under Pressure ( ie pressure pushing on the Thermostat and being fully submersed)

REDA9X= the Thermo fans are spinning the right way, if you feel at the front of the radiator you can feel the air screaming out from behind the radiator.

also how do I correcly burb all the air out the system?, in my case i mean as Im not running the Heater

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#78 S pack

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 06:55 PM

Would you like to point it out then, it would appear to me that his definition of pressure was just making sure it was completely immersed.

How much increase in pressure is going to be achieved by submersing it in a couple of inches of water???
None.

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#79 _torbirdie_

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 06:56 PM

The way Understood the rep's conversation was that he meant that the Thermostat has to be under Pressure ( ie pressure pushing on the Thermostat and being fully submersed)

Pressure on what part of the thermostat exactly? The system that controls the valve is thermal. As I wrote earlier it can't be due to pressure from the coolant flow opening the valve as it opens in the opposite direction .

Having a thermostat depend on pressure to operate properly would be a disaster in a car system

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#80 _torbirdie_

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 06:59 PM

How much increase in pressure is going to be achieved by submersing it in a couple of inches of water???
None.

Yes not much, but just trying to make some sense of what the "mechanic" was trying to say as any other interpretation is bs.

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#81 _76S.L.R_

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 07:16 PM

Right just let her run with the cap off and the thermostat opened up, I looked in the cap and it was flowing but all over the show,like a big storm at sea!!!?? , the way I recalled it flowing years ago was just a steady flow in 1 direction and reasonably quickly!?.

So i guess for the 3rd time im back to square 1 and this pump is no good too by the looks of it !? . I waited till the thermo fans kicked on and this time it brought the temp down about 10 degrees in 2 mins,the other day it was going down only 5 degrees in 2-3 mins. Though the weather is not as hot today....

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#82 REDA9X

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 07:19 PM

You're saying it's bubbling as soon as the thermostat opens?? Head gasket?

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#83 _76S.L.R_

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 07:22 PM

Yeh the coolant pretty much looks to flow about all over the place,I dunno if its actually bubbling as such but the flow is everywhere, you'd have to see it im finding it hard to explain, I'll go out now and try again.

Edited by 76S.L.R, 04 January 2013 - 07:22 PM.

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#84 S pack

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 07:38 PM

Yes not much, but just trying to make some sense of what the "mechanic" was trying to say as any other interpretation is bs.

As an example let's look at the thermostat for a VS V6. It has a rated opening temp of 89 - 93 deg C and a fully open temp of 106 deg C.
We know that water boils at 99 deg C at atmospheric pressure, so testing the VS thermostat in a pot of boiling water is not going to open it up fully.
So how can we get the temp of the testing water up to 106 deg C or higher without reverting to using a liquid that has a boiling point higher than 106 deg C???
Pressure to raise the boiling point of the water so that a temp of 106 deg or more can be achieved.

I'm sure that is what the Tridon rep was alluding to when he commented that you need pressure, cause you won't get the thermostat to open fully in boiling water

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#85 _76S.L.R_

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 07:40 PM

Just had another go, its not bubbling the coolant, its just like the flow is not directional( as I suspect it should be) ie its not flowing in one direction, its like the coolant is flowing left and right at the same time??.

I need to take it out for a run again to know if anything has improved,still both radiator hoses are getting as hot as each other,dunno if this is normal?

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#86 S pack

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 07:41 PM

Ok, so were there any indications that this presumed overly hot running condition was evident in the small amount of driving done immediately after the head gaskets were re[placed?

The reason I ask is, it is quite easy on the 253 & 308 to inadvertently install an inlet manifold to cylinder head gasket the wrong way around and block off the water passage from one of the heads to the manifold. Been there and done that myself. Spent hours and hours trying to work out why the damn thing was running so hot and it was the last thing we thought to check.

I reckon it's worth checking the above just to be sure.

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#87 TerrA LX

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 07:43 PM

Just because a pot of water boils at 100deg C does not mean it wont continue to heat after boiling if heat is continually applied.

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#88 v6 torana

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 07:53 PM

I have read all the posts regarding your overheating problem, your first post indicated the overheating was an issue even before you put the new radiator in. It looks as though you have covered all bases except for:

1/ Is the Temperature Gauge reading correclty ?

2/ Blown Head Gasket or Cracked Head, the most accurate way I have found to check for a blown head gasket/crack is:

Braze an air fitting onto a compression tester fitting (the end that screws into the spark plug hole)
In the engine firing order bring each piston up to Top Dead Centre (TDC) firing stroke
Insert and tighten fitting and connect compressed air hose
Remove radiator cap and observe any bubbles or water rising in top tank of radiator

I have found this method is far more reliable than testing kits / compression tests. Make sure your are on TDC on firing stroke if not the air pressure will push the piston down and spin the crank.

V6 Torana

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#89 S pack

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 07:55 PM

Just because a pot of water boils at 100deg C does not mean it wont continue to heat after boiling if heat is continually applied.

Yes, but, air is not a good conductor of heat, so the air bubbles produced in the boiling water actually reduce the heat transfer efficiency, both at the base of the pot and at the thermostat. Just like boiling coolant in your engine is detrimental to the efficiency of the system to cool the engine.

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#90 _76S.L.R_

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 08:00 PM

I reckon it's worth checking the above just to be sure.

I was hoping to not start pulling the motor to bits, but if it still overheats now... then I'll have to assume the inlet manifold Gaskets are indeed the Wrong way around or Head Gasket's are stuffed as ive replaced everything else....

Edited by 76S.L.R, 04 January 2013 - 08:00 PM.

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#91 TerrA LX

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 08:02 PM

Yes, but, air is not a good conductor of heat, ...

That's why they recommend to heat the thermostat in coolant.

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#92 _torbirdie_

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 08:07 PM

As an example let's look at the thermostat for a VS V6. It has a rated opening temp of 89 - 93 deg C and a fully open temp of 106 deg C.
We know that water boils at 99 deg C at atmospheric pressure, so testing the VS thermostat in a pot of boiling water is not going to open it up fully.
So how can we get the temp of the testing water up to 106 deg C or higher without reverting to using a liquid that has a boiling point higher than 106 deg C???
Pressure to raise the boiling point of the water so that a temp of 106 deg or more can be achieved.

I'm sure that is what the Tridon rep was alluding to when he commented that you need pressure, cause you won't get the thermostat to open fully in boiling water

I appreciate the info on the v 6 thermostat, but show me any workshop anywhere which has a pressurised vessel( with a glass lid)to test thermostats........rofl, I don't think the mechanic meant testing them in this fashion.

Regardless the OP was enquiring about a stat that was rated for 82C. If its not fully open before boiling there is something wrong with it and indeed find it hard to believe that he would think that it would need to be heated beyond boiling to fully open.

Just a minor point, water boils at 100C at 1 atm, did you have a crush on Barbara Feldon or something.........

Op: bubbles don't sound good, but have you been for a spin yet?

Edited by torbirdie, 04 January 2013 - 08:16 PM.

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#93 S pack

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 08:52 PM

I appreciate the info on the v 6 thermostat, but show me any workshop anywhere which has a pressurised vessel( with a glass lid)to test thermostats........rofl, I don't think the mechanic meant testing them in this fashion.

Regardless the OP was enquiring about a stat that was rated for 82C. If its not fully open before boiling there is something wrong with it and indeed find it hard to believe that he would think that it would need to be heated beyond boiling to fully open.

Just a minor point, water boils at 100C at 1 atm, did you have a crush on Barbara Feldon or something.........

Op: bubbles don't sound good, but have you been for a spin yet?

Agree there wouldn't be a mechanic around with that sort of equipment. I just think what the Tridon Rep meant was without the ability to pressurise the test equipment you won't get the thermostat to open fully using boiling water.

Agree that an 82 deg C rated thermostat should be fully open before the water boils.

99 or 100, whats 1 degree between friends.

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#94 S pack

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:02 PM

I was hoping to not start pulling the motor to bits, but if it still overheats now... then I'll have to assume the inlet manifold Gaskets are indeed the Wrong way around or Head Gasket's are stuffed as ive replaced everything else....

If a manifold gasket is the wrong way around and blocking off the water passage it will only be one not both as you are getting some coolant flow through the engine and radiator.

Easy to check by removing the thermostat and inserting a length of wire down the manifold water passage toward each head and see how far down they go before they stop. Mark the wires at the manifold thermostat opening, pull them out and hold them over the top of the manifold to compare the distances to the heads.

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#95 _76S.L.R_

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:34 PM

Still no good guys, I drove about for about 15 mins or so and it was sitting just under 90 c ,I stopped at my brothers house for about 20 mins,I get back in the car and give it some stick around the streets,I live about 5 mins from his place.

within a few mins the temp has risen to 100 and the fans not kicked on!?,its get to 105 on the temp gauge and the fans start up they whirl like mad and its struggling to bring the temp down at all??. I get home and the fans still going, it takes a good 5-6 mins now to get the temp to 90 . I turn the motor off and come back outside and turn the key to acc the temp is now back up to 95

I asked my brother about the gaskets and he reckons 100% they are not on wrong cause it ran ok after we changed all those out?( his memory is MUCH better than min), though I'll try do the wire check tomorrow, Airlock in the coolant????

Edited by 76S.L.R, 04 January 2013 - 09:46 PM.

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#96 S pack

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:45 PM

The 308 that I installed one of the gaskets the wrong way around on was in my brothers HX and I swore black and blue that I fitted both the gaskets correctly.

Humble pie was the order of the day.