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Help! 308 running hot

Started by _76S.L.R_ , Jan 02 2013 05:32 PM

New alloy radiator

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226 replies to this topic

#201 TerrA LX

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 10:56 AM

Old Tin Impeller pump

New Cast Impeller Pump ( 10mm wider Diameter)

Fantastic comparison of the pumps.
You can see there is like a 10% greater diameter and more area of the cast impeller.

Lol you can see straight thru the pressed tin one.
thanx for posting.

Hope you don't mind me using them in the future.

Edited by TerrA LX, 08 January 2013 - 10:58 AM.

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#202 _76S.L.R_

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 11:16 AM

I knew you guys would like those Pump comparison pics and yes would be honored if you use the pics wherever you choose!

When I bought the Proper cast type impeller one= no matter where I went ,everyone had those Tin Plate Impeller ones!!!, I had to come back home and ring around to locate the correct one and drive somewhat to go pick it up, so the majority for sale out there are the nasty Tin Plate Jobs.....

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#203 _76S.L.R_

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 12:27 PM

So I need go buy a 95 / 90 thermo Sensor instead of my current 85 / 80 and that will fix the problem!?

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#204 _torbirdie_

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 01:03 PM

So I need go buy a 95 / 90 thermo Sensor instead of my current 85 / 80 and that will fix the problem!?

Based on the what has been presented yes, but no guarantees.

They are available in many configs, Id go higher than 90/95 and go 92/97 maybe even 95-100. This would future proof it if you decided to go to an 88-92 thermostat. Also if it does get to temps of 90 or so on the highway you dont really want the fans cycling on and off for your whole drive.

but having one that triggers before 100C provides some comfort that it will be able to trigger when you leave the radiator cap off!

Edited by torbirdie, 08 January 2013 - 01:10 PM.

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#205 _76S.L.R_

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 02:49 PM

Ive just ran into another problem = I went to go order another Thermo Fan Sensor and they asked me the thread size and I dont know if I need Normall Open or Normally closed Ground Thermo Sensor , so i wasnt able to order one!.

Edited by 76S.L.R, 08 January 2013 - 03:03 PM.

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#206 v6 torana

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:01 PM

I dont want to throw a spanner in the works but did you have the overheating problem prior to fitting the AU Electric Fans ?

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#207 _torbirdie_

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:24 PM

Ive just ran into another problem = I went to go order another Thermo Fan Sensor and they asked me the thread size and I dont know if I need Normall Open or Normally closed Ground Thermo Sensor , so i wasnt able to order one!.

Do you know how to test it? My guess it would normally open and closes when it gets hot as it pairs up better with common relays that way(which your autoelec would have had a bucket load of).

Test for continuity(normally closed) between the onr terminal and the thread part of the sensor when it is cold using a multimeter, or use a small wattage test lamp.

The other easy way is to see what happens is by observing what happens when you disconnect the wire when it is in place on the radiator, with the ignition on and the motor cold. If nothing happens when you disconnect it, normally open.

If it triggers the fans, normally closed.

Edited by torbirdie, 08 January 2013 - 03:34 PM.

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#208 S pack

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:41 PM

Do you know how to test it? My guess it would normally open and closes when it gets hot as it pairs up better with common relays that way(which your autoelec would have had a bucket load of).

Test for continuity(normally closed) between the onr terminal and the thread part of the sensor when it is cold using a multimeter, or use a small wattage test lamp.

The other easy way is to see what happens is by observing what happens when you disconnect the wire when it is in place on the radiator, with the ignition on and the motor cold. If nothing happens when you disconnect it, normally open.

If it triggers the fans, normally closed.

His therrno sensor is the Normally Open type.

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#209 _76S.L.R_

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:54 PM

I found out the thread was 3/8" BSP and the sensor is Normall Open( im almost positive) I just ordered one , normally open and the best I could get after we looked through all the books they had in store was a 95 / 90 and the damn thing cost $34.00.

I'll try this Sensor but Im doubting it will fix anything cause as I said,the other day after I gave the car a bit of stick and the fans had been going for at least 5-6 mins,the temp had not come down one bit!! so the fans still wont be able to reduce the temps even if I fit the higher rated Thermo fan sensor will they?? or am I still missing something here?...

If this fails I'll have to go back to a clutch fan set up again

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#210 _torbirdie_

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:19 PM

I'll try this Sensor but Im doubting it will fix anything cause as I said,the other day after I gave the car a bit of stick and the fans had been going for at least 5-6 mins,the temp had not come down one bit!! so the fans still wont be able to reduce the temps even if I fit the higher rated Thermo fan sensor will they?? or am I still missing something here?...

I believe you.......

From what you have given us, "the temp gauge was on 90C" and "but the temp measured directly in the coolant of the rad was 10C" less, I/we have come to the conclusions that you are simply running at thermostat temperature and your fans are triggered at the same temperature, its impossible to cool the temperature of the water in the engine(that is what your gauge is measuring) below this(the thermostat is doing its job)............well its sort of possible at when the ambient is at -40C and you are doing 100km/h, but that's not your situation. You could be cooling the radiator down to near ambient, but the gauge will stay at the 90C mark because that is your stat temp, the fans will continue to run because they are triggered at 85 or so, near enough to the stat temp.

On your next drive, the fans wont be on when the temp is at the 90C(80 real temp) mark, your gauge will show ~105C(95 real temp) before they switch on and then the fans should bring the temp down by 5C or so and they will switch off with your gauge showing 100C(real temp 90C).

Exactly how well will this system cool the car in extreme temps, its hard to say, the temp differences you measured between top and bottom give us a little indication, but the stat would have been partially closed.........and the ambient?.... If the ambient was 45C and the bottom hose measures only 55C, then the cooling system is doing extremely well!

I look forward to hearing how it goes........

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#211 _76S.L.R_

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:53 PM

Well again it all turned to shit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, I rang the boss and asked him " I need to know 100% what thread you tapped into my new radiator for the Sensor"( Boss drilled/tapped the hole)
He said it was a 3/8" BSP Gas Thread.

I get home and the Sensor I ordered has a 3/8 BSP GasThread, it doesnt screw into the threaded hole in the new radiator ,nor the threaded hole in my old radiator??!!,I cut the old threaded part off my old radiator and go back to the shop and explain.Its now all in limbo cause I still dont know what damn thread size my old 85/ 80 sensor is!!??,after much research I can only assume its an metric 16 x 1.5 pitch thread instead of 3/8" BSP??. If you measure the Sensors thread,the OD of the thread is showing as 15.96mm .

EDIT: Yesterday with the IR Temp Gun I was getting 36 Degrees ambient temp,when testing everything Ie Radiator etc

Edited by 76S.L.R, 08 January 2013 - 08:58 PM.

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#212 _torbirdie_

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 09:55 PM

fun fun fun, the old 70C stat may have been an easier option..................or even a new 70c stat.

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#213 _torbirdie_

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 01:08 AM

EDIT: Yesterday with the IR Temp Gun I was getting 36 Degrees ambient temp,when testing everything Ie Radiator etc

Ok, the results you got of being able to maintain minimum stat temp and a bottom hose temp of 50C with 36C ambient indicate your system has a lot of margin.....at idle at least. on those numbers it would suggest that it should be able to keeps its cool right up to 50+C, which can be the temp of the air a couple of feet above the road that you are pulling through the rad on a 40C day.

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#214 76lxhatch

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 06:39 AM

Is the sensor thread tapered? I would have thought it'd be NPT, not BSP

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#215 _76S.L.R_

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:21 AM

Is the sensor thread tapered? I would have thought it'd be NPT, not BSP

Most the new ones are NPT Thread, the one I ordered in turned out to be 3/8' gas thread and that looked tapred!?.

Going by what Sensors I have seen listed im ASSUMING mine old one is 16mm Metric by 1.25 Pitch,I have a thread pitch gauge and its defiately 1.25 and its thread OD just under 16mm

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#216 _76S.L.R_

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 02:22 PM

I just went to enzed and took the sensor there= they said my old thermo fan sensor thread is 10mm metric!!?? how can it be......if I get my 10mm thread Tap its miles smaller than the hole the sensor threads into!.

The boss reckons he tapped the hole in the radiator with 3/8" BSP......... the 3/8" BSP Thermo Sensor I took home yesterday did not even start to screw in the hole in the radiator!? None if this makes any sense to me at all.If I return that new sensor no doubt i'll now be charged re-delivery as it was ordered in what a frOcking mess

Edited by 76S.L.R, 09 January 2013 - 02:22 PM.

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#217 _76S.L.R_

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 05:42 PM

PROBLEM FOUND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Its the worst outcome = the Head Gaskets are stuffed, tested today by putting a soft drink bottle with tape wrapped around the neck into the radiator opening ,the radiator full of coolant I then filled the Bottle up with water and started the car up and the bastard thing IS blowing bubbles. We only did Head Gaskets a few years ago and the car has had pretty much no use!! so Im puzzled as to why they are stuffed ( Unless a head is cracked?),I should have done this test first before wasteing all my money on crap that wasnt needed, so the Toran will be parked up yet again!,GRRRRR.

Can A Cracked head even be repaired??

Thanks everyone for their help

Edited by 76S.L.R, 09 January 2013 - 05:45 PM.

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#218 _torbirdie_

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 08:55 PM

PROBLEM FOUND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

perhaps another problem found, from what you've given us your engine wasn't actually overheating and you'll still need to change things so that your temp switch is higher than your stat temp, perhaps put the 70C one back in to save some mucking around and coin for now if you need to drive it..

Not really familiar with your bottle test so cant comment on what you've found out from it, but bubbles doesnt sound good.

It loses a little coolant from the overflow bottle often,I have tested for head gasket leaks before using my TEE KAY Head Check http://precisiontool...k-head-check/54 = no signs of head gasket leak??,the fans whirl away for ages and again its only bringing the temp down 10 degrees though I now know my temp gauge is reading out....

So how long ago was it that you did the TEE KAY check?

Edited by torbirdie, 09 January 2013 - 08:57 PM.

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#219 _76S.L.R_

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 09:46 PM

TEE KAY Check was only done about 6-7 months ago ,spoke to my brother and he laughed at me and thinks the head gaskets/heads are fine and that the bubbles could just be air in the system?.

I gave up on getting another Thermo Fan Sensor,it was too much grief!,I went and bought a 70 degree Thermostat and fitted that,I gave it one trial and seemed MUCH better!?, The fans didnt kick on until this time until 105 -108? ......the thermo switch is an 85 / 80, measured the coolant temp again today but with a proper big laboritory Thermometer and compared again with my Temp gauge = its definately reading 10 degrees too high on the gauge. So really my fans are kicking on at 95 degrees which is 10 degrees higher than they are supose to be turning on. But the fans today wound down the temp much,much faster and also took the temp lower than before but this was just testing from stock cold and idling in the Garage,plus wasnt anywhere near as hot ambient temp wise today.

Tomorrow I will run an earth wire from the Temp Gauge to out in the engine bay somewhere,to earth on Battery?? to try get the temp gauge to read more accurately,Im reading at numerous places if the earth is a bit dodgey they dont read right( and will read high) my current earth for it was under the dash....

Edited by 76S.L.R, 09 January 2013 - 09:47 PM.

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#220 S pack

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 12:24 AM

With the previous temp readings you've taken and the latest readings it does appear that your temp gauge isn't accurate.
As far as your thermo fan switch is concerned it is probably more accurate than you think.
If your temp gauge is reading approx 10 deg too high then the actual coolant temp in the manifold water passage is around 95 deg.
Your readings have shown that there is a drop in the coolant temp over the top radiator hose and the top tank of between 5 and 10 degrees at the radiator cap. This would suggest the fans are switching on at around 85 to 90 deg C.

I have my thermo fan switch fitted on the engine side of the thermostat so the fan switch is operating on actual engine temp not radiator temp.
I know others will disagree with my set up, and I think most modern cars have the thermo fan switch mounted in the radiator, but that's my personal preference.

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#221 _torbirdie_

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 05:33 AM

With the previous temp readings you've taken and the latest readings it does appear that your temp gauge isn't accurate.
As far as your thermo fan switch is concerned it is probably more accurate than you think.
If your temp gauge is reading approx 10 deg too high then the actual coolant temp in the manifold water passage is around 95 deg.
Your readings have shown that there is a drop in the coolant temp over the top radiator hose and the top tank of between 5 and 10 degrees at the radiator cap. This would suggest the fans are switching on at around 85 to 90 deg C.

why not add i agree with what has been posted previously regarding this etc................it looks like you haven't bothered to read them

I have my thermo fan switch fitted on the engine side of the thermostat so the fan switch is operating on actual engine temp not radiator temp.
I know others will disagree with my set up, and I think most modern cars have the thermo fan switch mounted in the radiator, but that's my personal preference.

Why would anyone disagree with your setup, there is basically little difference. Most modern cars dont have sensors in the rad, the computer ties into the engine mounted temp gauge and triggers/monitors all sorts of things from there. Many do, they trigger low coolant level etc and in some and this again is monitored by the computer to do other tricks as well.

In practice at fully open thermostat temps there is very little cooling of the water has occurred as it flows past the sensor in the top tank of the radiator so it should trigger at basically the same temp, and if its 0.5C cooler, big deal. The only reason this arrangement is popular is that its much easier to pop a hole in the top tank then putting another sensor somewhere on the cylinder head, thermostat cover etc.

My only issue is that the sensors become much too hot in heat soak conditions and trigger the fans unnecessarily on start up etc, that is why I recommend a bottom radiator sensor, just a bit trickier to get the heat range right.

Edited by torbirdie, 10 January 2013 - 05:37 AM.

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#222 _76S.L.R_

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 10:34 AM

Forgot to post this Autospeed Article up, I found it the other day regarding testing of Water Pump efficiency

http://www.autospeed...78/article.html

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#223 TerrA LX

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:50 AM

TK head check 6 months ago?
Can you get it re done?
You getting little fizzy bubbles of big bubbles in the coolant?

Either way pressure test will confirm leaks before you go ripping it apart.

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#224 _76S.L.R_

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:43 PM

Im not getting Fizzy in the Coolant from what I can see or big bubbles,I was getting that when I tested the other day though by= filling the radiator right up then wrapping tape around the threaded part of a 1.25 litre drink bottle and shoving it in the radiator,then filled the bottle with water and I was getting both small and big bubbles comming uo but incionsistently. Though I had just filled the radiator yet again so hopefully it just had air in the system??..

I can re-do TEE KAY,I have plenty of the Solution left.

I took her out for a drive again today and it all seems to be running pretty darn good now with that 70 degree thermostat and my 85/ 80 Thermo Switch, is it ok to keep that 70 degree Thermostat in there though??.

I had to drain the coolant again for the million'th time, I had leaks at the Thermo Sensor in the Radiator ( Now has a Crush Washer) and the Darn Thermostat Housing was leaking again, I put a little silastic on the seal of it ......if that Housing leaks again tomorrow I will throw it in the Bin!! and get a standard one.

Edited by 76S.L.R, 11 January 2013 - 08:46 PM.