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carbon pistons on olden donk to reduce reciprocating weight ?

Started by _barana_ , Apr 27 2013 09:12 AM

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10 replies to this topic

#1 _barana_

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 09:12 AM

Does anyone know anything about these? Has someone done it already? Ifso, where do we get them from/made up ? Ive googled but not come up with anything substantial. I believe theyre used in f1 and race engines to get reciprocating weight down- smoothes vibrations and helps increase top rpms...

Heres a relevant link..and interesting http://www.mgg-greiner.com/summary.htm

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#2 _barana_

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 09:37 AM

Also http://www.schunk-gr...-Engines_02.pdf

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#3 N/A-PWR

CABIN ENGINE CONTROLS GALORE

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 10:17 AM

Very nice - here is the website - http://www.schunk-gr...&L=0&no_cache=1

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#4 Uncle Chop Chop

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 09:11 PM

I have seen planty of carbon on pistons, not seen them made of it.

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#5 S pack

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 10:12 PM

Vic, this is a carbon piston.

33400d1284861009-gralit-carbon-pistons-i

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#6 S pack

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 10:15 PM

Interesting article here about Daimler Benz development of carbon pistons.

http://web.anl.gov/P..._08-91_1088.pdf

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#7 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 07:04 AM

Interesting, it would seem the carbon/carbon piston would have some advantages in some applications. But I have some questions:

How much heat can they take before the material starts to oxidise or burn?

How resistant is the matrix to various fuels?

How much do they cost?

And the big one, why is nobody using them?

F1 certainly aren't, it's prohibited by their rules:

5.17 Materials and construction – Components:
5.17.1 Pistons must be manufactured from an aluminium alloy which is either Al-Si; Al-Cu; Al-Mg or Al-Zn based.

I can't find any reference to them being used in either NHRA ProStock, Top Fuel, Nascar or big-bore two-strokes either, all these applications being more demanding of pistons than an F1 engine. Even if they were horribly expensive, if they were practical and had an advantage I'm sure the big-budget teams would be using them.

The paper from Benz that Dave linked was interesting, though they used plain graphite rather than carbon/carbon. They acknowledged that the graphite pistons were promising, despite the strength limitations, yet even now, many years later Benz are still using metallic pistons. I can only assume the project was abandoned.

So even though we have manufacturers spruiking their advantages, there doesn't seem to be anyone actually using them. If they're as good as what they say they are I'd love to try one in a two-stroke big single...

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#8 _Bomber Watson_

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 01:09 PM

Interesting.

Cant find a date on that M/benz paper, im guessing late 80's early 90's going by 1989 being mentioned once.....As johnno says its curious they havnt started using them...

What would be easyer to make, a cast/hyperuretnic alloy piston or a carbon one? What would be easyer to custom make, me thinks carbon would be easyer to custom make?

Tensile strengh looks stupidly low, tops might come off at tdc on the exhaust stroke?

Cheers.

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#9 S pack

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 01:18 PM

Would appear carbon pistons have become as popular as the ceramic engines that some 30years ago were lauded as being the next major advancement in engine development.