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'HOLDEN FLAT or V12'

Started by N/A-PWR , May 04 2013 06:50 PM

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153 replies to this topic

#76 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 04:00 PM

I cant get me head around how are ya gunna time the valves,coz arnt the paired pistons gunna be on different strokes ? and is it be a 90 degree "V" or 60 ign isn't going to be a problem that's only a matter of shifting plugleads.

Have seen some strange engines in my time including a CCW 351 fraud in twin engined boat, apparently there is a special cam available so you might be able to get one built

All that stuff is trivially easy, it's the structural issues and the oil scavenging that is the challenge.

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#77 _STRAIGHTLINEMICK_

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 04:04 PM

I cant get me head around how are ya gunna time the valves,coz arnt the paired pistons gunna be on different strokes ? and is it be a 90 degree "V" or 60 ign isn't going to be a problem that's only a matter of shifting plugleads.

Have seen some strange engines in my time including a CCW 351 fraud in twin engined boat, apparently there is a special cam available so you might be able to get one built

Ok we would cross this bridge later but because both halves will be opposite it may be as simple as timing one cam 180 deg out .Do you see any problems with that?

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#78 N/A-PWR

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 05:54 PM

The Blocks are 180 degrees to each other, so ignition / cam would be as well.

Firing order - Got to work it out as every second fire is 180 degrees apart

So any more thought on one block keeping the crank held by it's original main bearing caps and the other block is just a dummy. Dave I

Edited by TORYPOWER, 29 June 2013 - 06:07 PM.

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#79 N/A-PWR

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 06:32 PM

OK, the Firing order goes like this:-

( a ) is one block and ( b ) is the second block

1a - 5a - 3a+1b - 5b - 6a+3b - 2a - 4a+6b - 2b - 4b

this is 1 and a half turns of the crank in which all 12 have fired. Dave I

p.s. a normal 6 has the firing degrees like this - 1 then 90° 5, then 90° 3, then 180° 6, then 90° 2, then 90° 4, then 180° back to 1

Edited by TORYPOWER, 29 June 2013 - 06:45 PM.

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#80 _STRAIGHTLINEMICK_

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 06:33 PM

So any more thought on one block keeping the crank held by it's original main bearing caps and the other block is just a dummy. Dave I

That could work Dave ,but would clearancing the 2nd block weaken it too much or break into water?

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#81 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 07:17 PM

The Blocks are 180 degrees to each other, so ignition / cam would be as well.

Firing order - Got to work it out as every second fire is 180 degrees apart

So any more thought on one block keeping the crank held by it's original main bearing caps and the other block is just a dummy. Dave I

I just had a look at a block and you'd have to cut nearly all of the main web out to make room for the cap and the nuts. This wouldn't matter I don't think, but it also means that the cam tunnel would only be supported on one side, by the block skirt. So it'd be too weak I think, which is a shame because otherwise the idea has a lot going for it.

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#82 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 07:24 PM

OK, the Firing order goes like this:-

( a ) is one block and ( b ) is the second block

1a - 5a - 3a+1b - 5b - 6a+3b - 2a - 4a+6b - 2b - 4b

this is 1 and a half turns of the crank in which all 12 have fired. Dave I

p.s. a normal 6 has the firing degrees like this - 1 then 90° 5, then 90° 3, then 180° 6, then 90° 2, then 90° 4, then 180° back to 1

I don't know how you came up with that, each bank is 180 deg apart (obviously) and like any 4 stroke you'd fire all cylinders once every 720degrees. In other words the firing interval would be regular, and every 60 degrees.

Firing order would be 1L, 4R, 5L, 1R, 3L, 5R, 6L, 3R, 2L, 6R, 4L, 2R.

Or alternately: 1L, 3R, 5L, 6R, 3L, 2R, 6L, 4R, 2L, 1R, 4L, 5R

Either would be possible from standard cams, and ignition would work with a single "normal" 12 cyl dissie.

Edited by oldjohnno, 29 June 2013 - 07:31 PM.

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#83 N/A-PWR

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 07:31 PM

Thank-you Oldjohnno and Mick,

Just had a read on a Flat Ferrari 12 and they say it runs like a inline 6 firing order - 1,5,3,6,2,4

But they do not mention single firing but do mention double:-

http://www.ferrarili...comments&page=2

p.s. I did see 65° if that was the big end angles, if that is so, we would need a new crank to balance out the firings to reduce vibration and noise, worth trying the normal crank in any case. Dave I

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#84 N/A-PWR

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 07:33 PM

I looked at the crank and seen the angles each firing order were to each other - got a bit of rethinking to do

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#85 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 07:42 PM

p.s. I did see 65° if that was the big end angles, if that is so, we would need a new crank to balance out the firings to reduce vibration and noise, worth trying the normal crank in any case. Dave I

The standard crankpin angle is 120deg, so as a normal six you get a firing every 120 deg, with 12 cylinders it'd be every 60. The counterweights in a standard crank are in the right positions already, albeit grossly undersized.

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#86 N/A-PWR

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 08:11 PM

Hi Oldjohnno,

OK, I forgot about the Cam doing 1/2 what the Crank does, all good then. Dave I

p.s. does the distributor do 1 turn to 1 turn of the crank

Edited by TORYPOWER, 29 June 2013 - 08:17 PM.

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#87 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 08:34 PM

p.s. does the distributor do 1 turn to 1 turn of the crank

Dissy runs half crank speed, same as normal. You could run a single 12 cyl dissy, or two sixes.

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#88 N/A-PWR

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 08:43 PM

That's what I thought, just that the cam gear ( that drives the distributor ) was twice the size as the distributor driven gear, must be that the distributor is driven at 90° to it that makes 1 to 1

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#89 N/A-PWR

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 09:21 PM

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#90 _hutch_

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 09:36 PM

look at this if it works www.203world.net/v8-v8403.html not sure if its been on here but its a good read

Phillip

Edited by hutch, 29 June 2013 - 09:36 PM.

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#91 N/A-PWR

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 09:54 PM

Thank-you Phillip,

The Site is for Sale:-

http://www.203world.net/

look at this if it works www.203world.net/v8-v8403.html not sure if its been on here but its a good read

Phillip

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#92 N/A-PWR

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 10:23 PM

This shit is keeping me awake at night ,the funny and scary thing is we havnt come across a problem big enough to kill the idea .Ok two dizzys on the 1st prototype firing 180deg apart .Both blocks to the front to keep accessories and cam drive where they should be . Heads also stay in the normal position .Cams can be played with later . I like the coffee table idea too .

Me too, must be a good thing. Dave I

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#93 N/A-PWR

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 11:50 PM

here is another Coffee table:-

$T2eC16VHJGIFFoZE(wPfBRgCESJQUQ~~60_57.J

http://www.ebay.com/...24f0ca1&vxp=mtr

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#94 _STRAIGHTLINEMICK_

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 12:18 AM

See how the crancase it bolted together on the ferrari . Similar bosses could be welded to the Holden blocks and machined .

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#95 N/A-PWR

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 12:20 AM

How good is Cast welding, other wise a Great Idea Mick

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#96 _hutch_

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 09:32 AM

Don't quite understand why that address goes there,but its a story on 2 Peugeot 4 cylinder engines married together

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#97 S pack

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 03:16 PM

How good is Cast welding, other wise a Great Idea Mick

Welding cast iron won't be a problem if done correctly. From memory you'd need to preheat the the block to 600 deg C?, carry out the required welding then controlled cooling period of around 2hrs to 3hrs to prevent cracks forming.

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#98 _STRAIGHTLINEMICK_

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 07:38 PM

Welding cast iron won't be a problem if done correctly. From memory you'd need to preheat the the block to 600 deg C?, carry out the required welding then controlled cooling period of around 2hrs to 3hrs to prevent cracks forming.

Yep dats da way its done Dave .

Just had a look at a crank n rods .The crankpins can be widened to at least 1.1" ,stock rods and bearings can be narrowed to .550" ,rods need to be offset .250" and there is enough meat that can be removed in the small end and piston to allow this .

ARP make bolts for these rods ,they will do the job.Crank oil holes can be chamfered and elongated to feed the bearings .Looks like it can be built reasonably cheaply as well.

Any thoughts on a simple oiling system?