45 replies to this topic

[Uncle Chop Chop]

Click and enjoy.

 

http://retrorack.net...ieTorana-rhdkit

[76lxhatch]

You're always going to have the physical packaging issue, the rack absolutely must be as far back as possible to avoid problems with lack of toe out on turns, or ackermann angle (even more than standard!). Its hard to tell whether the rack is small enough to sit back, looks like it may be. The mounting brackets would obviously determine the exact position, but could be altered if need be.

Given that the rack itself appears to be width ajustable then that should solve bump steer issues.

The hydraulic line connections look like they may foul the engine mount, and it could be very close to the sump on the other side with the rack fittings used. However its probably a stock photo so may not exactly represent what the Torana kit looks like.

Some setup to dial in the correct geometry may be required?

Edited by 76lxhatch, 05 October 2013 - 06:52 AM.

[axistr]

I have to agree with 76lxhatch.

 

I looked into this rack a few months ago and the promoters here haven't looked into to very closely and done much home work. Basically its one rack fit all in the short series rack kit.  On the manufactures web site they have the dimension's of the racks, and the inner ball joint centres aren't even close to a desirable position, its not just a few mm its inches out. The rack travel on this short series rack lists it as 6.5" and the Aussie site lists it as 5.5" I think the correct figure is 6.5" but both figures would be incorrect for the correct Torana travel. You could make internal spacers to lock out excessive travel but the internal design may or may not allow for this mod to be done easily.

 

I wouldn't think the rack mounting blocks would allow for the correct positioning, also the rack it self is much larger than the original rack, and the rotary valve is bulky at the input shaft and the power steering pump inlet lines might fowl. I would think that some mods would be needed to the Torana K-frame to get it to fit, and even then it wouldn't be likely to be in the correct position & plane. No where does it mention the outer tie rods tapper and depth. 

 

I found when I was setting up the power steering the rack position forward and the height made an incredible difference to the steering geometry. I recently supplied a rack kit to a company that build racing cars and the customer wanted to put power steering on his LX Torana. At the time I didn't have one ready to go so they bought one from the states. The owner did one race and removed the rack saying at speed and over bumps it was to dangerous to drive. They then waited till I could made up a kit, I supplied the variable ratio rack kit which solved all their problems. The company that fitted the kit didn't state which rack kit they first fitted, so I don't know if it was this rack.

 

I spoke to Greame Black a while ago who developed and supplies the Holden HQ rack & pinion conversion kit, and he said this is the same rack which meets the specks for a HQ conversion, he also had to make special mounts to get it to fit the HQs correctly. But the front end of the Torana is much different than the steering centre lines of a HQ.   

 

All I can say is it looks impressive but not a practical plug & play power steering option for the Torana.

 

Lenny.       

[A9X]

I'd have to say that if you were going to lay down your hard earned cash on something as important as this, not just on a safety point if view but also the whole impact it has on the driving experience , I'd be looking for more than a pretty ad.

Lenny has step by step shown his working out here on the forum, he has accepted and contributed to a very large open discussion on the forum and has a proven product already in place on a number of cars, most of which the owners can be readily contacted for opinions

Just my 2c worth

G'day Lenny.

[axistr]

Thanks Welby,

 

I see it as the owner shouldn't just want lighter steering. The Torana & owner should & needs better lighter steering, not just lighter steering.

 

I wouldn't accept anything less.

[76lxhatch]

better <...> steering, not just lighter steering

Quoted because it bears repeating; in my opinion if any part of the geometry is worse than the original then it has to be a no-go.

I just download their catalogue and took a look at the measurements on page 72 - if they are correct, I would not consider buying this kit and I would recommend others do not. It lists the CSS design rack as having a width of 717mm between inner joints - that is almost 100mm too wide!! Major bump steer unless you can somehow magically mount the rack much higher (inside the engine??!!)

Apologies if I've missed something and those are not the correct numbers, but I would not install a rack with 717mm spaced inner joints on a Torana with standard suspension pickup points.

[Uncle Chop Chop]

I see two members were very quick to use the internet to criticise the kit. I wonder if they were also that quick to contact the company involved? Page 42 of the catalogue states the rack is a CSS which does have 717 mm between the inner joints. The CSMS rack is 600 mm between the inner joints, could they have made a typo in the catalogue? It also states the CSMS rack can be custom made to order, so maybe it's a bit wider than 600mm?

 

If 76lx hatch and axistr don't like my assumptions, then have a read of the ones you made. Or just send the company an email.

[76lxhatch]

I don't mind your assumptions, I realise I have made some too - that is why I used a number of "ifs" in my statements, I don't want to boo-hoo someone's hard work for no reason but I would really hate for anyone to use something that could be so dangerous. I guess we're quickest to criticise because we've done the bump steer measurements and seen how bad the result would be. We don't need to ask the questions of the supplier because we have our own alternatives, but personally I think its nice to at least be able to equip other potential buyers with the right questions to ask.

Again, IF its the 717mm rack (which their documentation appears to state from what I see) then its simply not going to work. IF its the 600mm rack then that's too narrow, however at least there are options to safely extend it with spacers. To put some hard numbers on it for anyone considering this sort of item I would say that if the supplier can provide a rack that is between 620-635mm inner joint spacing that sits no more than 5mm further forward than the factory rack, is correctly centred left to right, and allows enough clearance to engine mounts and sump then it could be made to work with what I would consider suitable geometry. The exact inner joint spacing depends on the exact installed height, the position of the upper arms, and the wheel alignment used (since that affects upper arm position also).

[axistr]

Agreed Vic, but they are the ones that are marketing the kit and suppling the measurements not us, and I don't think they have done their home work well enough to say they have a kit ready for a Torana  The kit they are marketing would properly be great for quite a few vehicles but not specific to the Torana.

 

lots of time has gone into designing and developing the rack and it's great to see an Aussie company having a go, but you just can't go for a one rack will suit all approach. I spent over two hundred hours developing a power steering alternative, and some times I made mistakes, but I just kept going over everything till it all worked and sorted in my head. If I went into every calc and every test I carried out there would be around of 100 pages here just boring everyone. So I only explained some of them and looking back some statements may not have been 100% correct at the time. The steering geometry on a motor vehicle is very complex and far more involved than even most mechanics will understand and 80% of wheel alignment specilists. For lx76hatch or me to explain all the information needed to design the perfect front end here would be very long, bore most and at times hard for us to explain in detail.

 

Even the car & truck manufactures don't always get it right. I was contracted to solve steering issues for Ford LTL series trucks, International Trucks Australia & Western Star Trucks some years ago. I soon realised how little some of these so called experts didn't know about the basics of steering, alignments & design. They might know all about racks but you need to know the whole package if you get my drift. If I was to contact them and tell them they had it all wrong they would most likely just hang up on me.  

 

If you have any questions relating to steering issues or design feel free to ask and I will try to explain.

 

 

Lenny.    

[ls2lxhatch]

I had a look at the retro rack on paper a few months ago when I saw an ad in Perth Street Car that Billet Works were selling them. The clock able power steering head looked like it might solve the clearance problems with the LS motors in the LH/LX Torana. At that time they did not have a Torana kit.

 

I looked at the CSS rack which has a ball centre of 717 mm. The Torana LH/LX rack is around 602 mm between the ball centres and the UC rack is 623 mm. I came to the conclusion that the CCS rack was too wide for the Torana. I did plan to see if they could make a narrower rack but never got around to asking.

 

About a month ago 355LX told me about the Torana kit. This link states that the Torana kit uses the CSS rack. 

http://retrorack.net...5&product_id=69

 

355LX asked about bump steer and they claim that there is no bump steer. Although they can not explain how it is possible to fit a rack with ball centres around 100 mm wider that stock without catastrophic bump steer. The CSMS rack would be far more suitable. The only way to be sure would be to measure the rack in one of the kits. If it is the CSS rack then run away. If it is the CSMS rack then it would be worth plotting the bump steer to see if they have mounted the rack in the right position.

 

 

There is also a question mark about the quality. Many aftermarket racks are poor quality compared to the OEM racks.

Edited by ls2lxhatch, 06 October 2013 - 03:11 PM.

[Uncle Chop Chop]

I spent over two hundred hours developing a power steering alternative, and some times I made mistakes...

I read most of the original power steering thread, I thought more hours may have been needed than that. I hope you're not assuming they haven't spent enough time in R&D. Actually...

...I don't think they have done their home work well enough to say they have a kit ready for a Torana

you did assume that. I hope it's not because you have a vested interest in this.
 

There is also a question mark about the quality. Many aftermarket racks are poor quality compared to the OEM racks.

Another assumption, are you able to justify your claim for this particular company?


I am not assuming this comapny has a kit that will improve the Torana steering, I just posted a link for the purposes of discussion. Have any of the above three critics contacted the company about the kit? Or anybody else? I realise that I am more than capable of picking up the phone or sending them an email about the concerns posted here, but if others already have then there's no point in half a dozen or more people contacting them about the same thing. So unless somebody posts that they have contacted them, I shall shoot them an email on Monday week to confirm what are the rack dimensions in that kit.

[axistr]

You have taken me the wrong way Vick, I don't think I have bagged this company or assumed. The information I went on was the information that they have supplied, and if it is incorrect it is because they haven't done their home work. The only way you will not have any bump steer problems with a inner ball joint centre or 717mm is to have no suspension travel. My other concern which has not been raised is it has no rubber mounting to cancel any vibrations through to the steering wheel. If you want to quote me just make sure you include the complete sentence not part of. I am here to help, not to bag out any company. Just my comments on the system to ensure everyone here is well informed. 

[ls2lxhatch]

There is also a question mark about the quality. Many aftermarket racks are poor quality compared to the OEM racks.

Another assumption, are you able to justify your claim for this particular company?

 
I did not make any claims about the quality of the racks made by this company, I just pointed out that there are plenty of companies selling poor quality products. Retro Racks are a new player in the market (2012), therefore it is too early to tell how good their products are.

 

Graeme Black told me once that he had so many problems with new aftermarket racks that he now uses reconditioned factory racks in his kits.

 

I hope it is a quality rack setup correctly for the Torana but only time will tell. It is just another point to consider before slapping down 3K. Someone has to be the guinea pig.

Edited by ls2lxhatch, 06 October 2013 - 09:45 PM.

[355LX]

Vick you need to chill out mate, you are getting too defensive for no reason. The guys above never made any direct assertions about the retro racks. All they have done is share their own knowledge to arm any potentially interested people with some information to assist them in making a decision on a purchase.

 

Keeping retroracks out of the topic for a minute, I can think of 4 big name long running aftermarket companies that market products specifically for toranas, which I have bought and then encountered a mountain of trouble to attempting to fit or make work (and in some cases given up on).

Also there was an article in an American magazine that tested and compared many aftermarket racks(retro rack not included). Out of all racks tested there were only a couple of aftermarket manufacturers who were up to standard, one being flaming river and the other I cant recall.

The point is, none of the guys above were on the attack, they simply wanted to share their knowledge which is what these forums are all about. Just in the same way you were nice enough to take the time to share the link for the rack kit to everyone here.

Edited by 355LX, 06 October 2013 - 11:02 PM.

[76lxhatch]

The Torana LH/LX rack is around 602 mm between the ball centres and the UC rack is 623 mm.

They are pretty well bang on 620mm and 635mm respectively.

Have any of the above three critics contacted the company about the kit?

No, I already have power steering. But the point is if anyone does wish to contact them about it, they now have the info required to confirm whether the width and mounting position are suitable as per various posts here.

[76lxhatch]

My other concern which has not been raised is it has no rubber mounting to cancel any vibrations through to the steering wheel.

Given that UC racks are solid mounted and plenty of people (including myself) have successfully replaced the rubber coupler with a second uni, I solid mounted mine. My Torana will never win any prizes for low NVH levels but the steering doesn't appreciably contribute to any vibration, and it is nice and direct. There is some dampening effect from the hydraulic cylinder which probably helps a little.

Its not like I'm putting up with it either, I spent ages working through driveline and exhaust vibrations which annoyed me, even went to the trouble of a two piece driveshaft conversion to fix it.

[axistr]

I agree 76lxhatch, in most cases it will make bugger all difference, but the UC still had a rag joint in the column. My thought behind the theory of rubber mounting the rack and or the column was to ensure not only the road noise or reducing the slight kick back effect, but more so in some cases to removing the power steering pump harmonics.

 

I have done a few conversions over the years not including Toranas  which have suffered from this strange problem. May be just bad pump choice or hoses I am not sure, but in shear frustration in the end I fitted a pulsation dampener into the system to solve the problem. I don't know what hoses, pump or other things the installer may use, so I played it safe for that one in every fifty Torana that may suffer from this effect. And the pulsation dampeners don't come cheap so it was cheap insurance.

 

My hatch is also very direct in the steering and I hate any road noise or vibration which brings me to the next question. The only vibration I do have is very slight but at around 90kph it starts. I have this vibration in 4th and is slightly worse in 5th (overdrive).

 

Due to the car being lowered and I didn't want to cut out the tunnel (original SS body) to fit the Tremec TKO gearbox, the pinion angle is less than perfect. I put adjustable top control arms and got it in the best sweet spot using broken back style uni joint angles. I have done all the obvious things like balancing tyres, tail shaft & run out component checks. I even made up a shaft with a CV joint at the front which was fantastic until you got to 110kph then the mass of the CV joint and slip joint took over and caused a bigger vibration. I thought about doing a two piece shaft but the people I use to do the shafts talked me out of it. And the fact that the vibration is only very slight I just haven't done anything more about it.. The shaft would need to be reasonable strong as the hatch makes 503 ft pounds & 513hp. What was your experience and your tail shaft alignment angles and the reason for going this way?

 

I also suppose my problem isn't to bad due to the slow tail shaft speed. I am running a 9" with 3.1 gear set and at 125kph the engine speed is only 1800rpm in O/D. but if I do drop it to 3.5-1 I could induce more vibrations. 

 

So when you said you were running a two piece shaft It started me thinking again. Your thoughts and experience with the two piece shafts would be appreciated.

 

Thanks in advance Lenny.    

[ls2lxhatch]

They are pretty well bang on 620mm and 635mm respectively.

I guess it depends to on how you measure the ball centres. The 602 mm and 623 mm figures are the length of the rack with the tie rod arms removed. The ball on the factory tie rod arms sits inside the rack end. The ball on the aftermarket tie rod arms for Torana racks sits outside the rack end.

Went and checked lock to lock on both racks lx and uc this afternoon Must have been in the shed to long last night. The lx has 3 and a bit turns the uc has half a turn more.Don't know were i came up with 4.5 turns could'nt have had both arms on it sorry about that. So i will just put uc rack on it,whats half a turn in the grand scheme of things I'll lose a bit of that by putting spacers in it anyway.Toranama69 in answer to your question this evening the uc steering rod has 30 teeth the pinion has 5, rod lenght is 623 mm, steering arm lenght is 265 mm and teeth are app 24-25 deg. The lx rack,steering rod 30 teeth,pinion 6 teeth,steering rod 602mm steering arm 276mm and rod teeth are app 15-16 deg.Just happened to have both pulled apart again for the tenth time sitting on the bench when i saw your last post. Hope that helps anyway
cheers coil

Edited by ls2lxhatch, 07 October 2013 - 11:42 AM.

[76lxhatch]

What was your experience and your tail shaft alignment angles and the reason for going this way?

Basically what you said, it simply wasn't possible to get the appropriate uni angles with a one piece driveshaft. I actually had it in 'broken back' configuration where the angles were cancelling but they weren't opposite, this cancels the uni vibrations but too many rpm and its simply too much mass swinging around and the vibration comes back. I installed a VN Commodore driveshaft with the front portion shortened (that seemed to work out best) - the CV centre joint can go on any reasonable angle and this allowed me to get very nice equal and opposite front and rear uni angles. Its perfect now no matter the road speed or diff ratio. A bit more info:
http://www.gmh-toran...ece-driveshaft/

 

I guess it depends to on how you measure the ball centres. The 602 mm and 623 mm figures are the length of the rack with the tie rod arms removed.

Yep that would add up, my figures are to the centre of the ball itself. Even the factory Torana inner joints are centred a little beyond the ends of the rack itself by the time the size of the ball is taken into account.

[axistr]

Thanks 76lxhatch it was most informative. I will get looking into it further and do a bit more homework..

[ls2lxhatch]

Sounds promising.

 

Is the 5 mm bump steer 5 mm per side or 5 mm total bump steer? 

 

I would like to see photos of the rack fitted with an LS1 and an copy of the engineers report for any Torana that has been registered with the rack.

[DanWA]

As per Andy's comments, i would be all over one if they had copy of an engineers report and pics of one fitted into a LS1 converter car