28 replies to this topic

[Covert]

Hi, I picked up this old arc welder at a garage sale for 30 bucks. can someone tell me if after some practice will it be suitable to use for my  panel work, haven't had much experience welding know its an arc welder but that's about it.

thanks  

 

 

[yel327]

Dangerous thing used in the wrong hands. Electric shocks from old school arc welders are probably the most common electric shock today. In the right circumstances (moist hands, gloves etc) the live stick is as dangerous as touching live 240V AC. It is actually more dangerous, at least most 240V outlets today have RCD's on them.

Not suitable for panel work either. I'd turf it an invest in at least a gasless mig.

If you must keep it for other work, at least buy some good quality leads and electode holder for it, and only use it in the shed. Turn it off before changing electrodes. If you have 3phase powet available get an eleco to connect it up as 415V single phase (across two phases), will work better and cause less disturbance on the supply.

Edited by yel327, 02 December 2013 - 07:01 AM.

[wot179]

Its too cool (and Australian made) to chuck out.

 

Part of our heritage.

 

Keep it for a display in The Pool Room in a glass cabinet.

 

Not really suitable for panelwork unfortunately ( there are some old but incredibly skilled tradies that might argue otherwise), but I bet it lays down a mean bead on a piece of 1/8 plate.

[TerrA LX]

I cut my teeth on these things during my apprenticeship.

Being such a baby you could use it for panel work WITH THE RIGHT ELECTRODES but without experience using stick you would have far less trouble with an oxy, most people use a MIG as it is nearly fool proof and so versatile.

[Covert]

sounds like I could potentially kill myself using this thing which would mean yet another unfinished project on ebay, just can let that happen.

the thing is bloody heavy though, will come in handy for something 

[Rockoz]

Those old welders are excellent bits of gear for welding heavy stuff.

Risk of electrocution is actually quite low from the welding output, but can give a pretty good buzz nonetheless.

Wouldnt use one for car stuff though except maybe a towbar or bullbar

[yel327]

Those old welders are excellent bits of gear for welding heavy stuff.

Risk of electrocution is actually quite low from the welding output, but can give a pretty good buzz nonetheless.

Wouldnt use one for car stuff though except maybe a towbar or bullbar

 

That is 100% incorrect (sorry Rob, not lecturing to you but this is a common misconception).

60-80V AC is really no different to 240V AC with regards to giving the an electric shock that results in fibrillation of the heart. It is CURRENT that kills, not VOLTAGE. All you need is sufficient current to flow. I have just finished a training module for one of the local TAFE's Boliermaker's classes to present to the new apprentices next year to try to dispell this exact myth (that arc welding voltages can't kill), it DOES and WILL kill. As a member of the local electrical safety network (HIESN) we have been trying for years to educate boilermakers, but it isn't working as electric shocks from arc welding equipment is probably now the highest incidence of electric shock. So we are now about to try to target apprentices. 

If you are interested, read the examples of fatalities in the back of AS 1674.2 (Electrical Welding Safety Standard). I actually am a member of the committee responsible for this Standard. 

[wot179]

Which TAFE?

[Rockoz]

I am an electrician with over 30 years in the industry.

Yes there are circumstances where a welder can kill you but fortunately they are rare.

Hence my comment of low.

To draw a true comparison you would actually have to statistically link the number of shocks experienced in relation to the number of injuries caused.

If you could ever get the figures you would find them low.

However when you look at the shocks received by 240V and the number of injuries, particularly before the mandatory RCD rules you would find it much higher than from welders.

Would hazard to say I have had thousands of shocks from welding, and less than a hundred from 240V

Nil injuries from welding. 3 injuries from 240V.

A voltage as low as 9 volts will actually kill you. Again  in the right circumstances.

Oh and I hope you arent one of those who advocates for mandatory fitment of RCDs on generating sets.

[yel327]

Sorry Rob, that is all part of the misconception, and unfortunately it is this same attitude and worse that we see in Boilermakers. All it takes is little more than 30mA for a fraction of a second to give a greater than 50% chance of fibrillation, and this is easily achievable with a small amount of perspiration on the skin. This is why HRD's on welding sets are now mandatory in most States in hot or moist welding environments.

 

I am an Electrical Engineer and Electrician with over 30 years in the industry. I've been involved with AS1674.2 for a very long time now, and electric shocks from arc welders are actually more dangerous today than from 240V equipment, as almost all 240V equipment in industry is protected by RCD's. Old Ac welding sets have zero protection.

 

The continuing theme in electric shock reporting out of NSW mines and NSW industry is electric shocks from arc welders. And these are only the ones that are reported, i'm sure it is only the tip of the iceberg being reported.

 

 Diesel/Petrol 240/415V alternators can be as dangerous as mains supply, and some must have RCD's. Voltage to earth is voltage to earth, doesn't matter where it comes from. When you see some of the dodgy setups I get to see you'd be amazed! 

Edited by yel327, 02 December 2013 - 08:26 PM.

[RallyRed]

Hi guys......these old stick welders ARE dangerous.....if not....ask why yourself most new ones have VRD
( voltage reduction devices ) fitted.?? Ancient old welders that WOULD look good in the pool room dont have VRDs.
I am attached to the Emergency Response mob where I work..and we have have had several events where welders ( blokes )with sweaty
gloves etc got electric shocks from welders that were selected into "gouge" mode.
Why is that interesting?
Because in gouge mode the VRD is bypassed and the electric shock from the open circuit voltage i.e. when changing a welding rod,
is high enough to cause fibrilation of the heart ( i.e. youré in deep sh$$t )
The paramadics turn up and give a full 12 lead ECG when this occurs..looking for heart issues....so one assumes it not healthy.
If the ambo turns up with no 12 lead ECG machine, ( i.e. only a 6 lead ECG ) then the guys are taken to hospital as a matter of policy, for a full ECG.

p.s. Yell is a pretty smart elect engineer. I'd go with his view .

[RallyRed]

p.s. Rockoz....not dismissing your thought mate..some common sence in your posts too...just that from my understanding...the whole 'welding shock fibrilation'thing is underplayed..i,e. more dangerous that most think.

[Rockoz]

Hey guys Im not saying it doesnt happen. 

I have heard of it with my boily mates.

And since RCDs 240V electrocutions have obviously decreased.

Open Circuit Voltage Cut Outs on welders have made it safer, but can easily be bypassed on the ones I saw.

What I am saying is that in relation to the number of shocks, the number of injuries is low.

Now if we take line workers. The number of electric shocks to the number of injuries is high.

I never quite made it to engineer level.

Couldnt be bothered with the last 6 months of study.

But I have worked in lots of different industries.

Im making comparisons on all types of electric shocks.

And depending on which industry you work in, some places will have automatic hospitalisation for 12 hours with 12 port ECG.

Others no policy and some with variations.

Just in general interest yel. I worked with an engineer who was on the AS3000 comittee. From up Newcastle way.

[Covert]

Yep, from what you guys are saying I'm gonna woose out of using the old arc and invest in something newer, sounds like mig is the go. Came with two helmets as well so got my cash worth just from those, gonna do the TAFE mig class looks like the next one starts in Feb, looking forward

[Toranamat69]

You will be happy you got a MIG when you reallise you don't have to change rods every 2 minutes and don't have to fart around chipping off the slag all the time.

[TerrA LX]

looks like an awesome old welder. Is the brand some how related to cigweld? it would be great to use (for structural work) as long as leads, electrode holder are all in good condition. keep the ground as close to the work piece as possible...

I doubt a 130 would be big enough for structural work.
130's are good for around 3mm +/-2mm mild steel (depending on electrode selected), around 10-12 gauge (3.5mm~) in the old money.
This is the size electrodes it is rated at.

My guess it was either a shop one in use/put aside for small work or a deluxe (at the time) home model.

[Covert]

Old guy that sold it to me didn't say much about it, just that it still worked and that this type of welder was better than the new style because it is so heavy. So I guess that's how they use to gauge quality back in the old days, the heavier the better

[TerrA LX]

Anything was made better some 50yr ago...

[yel327]

Hey guys Im not saying it doesnt happen.
I have heard of it with my boily mates.
And since RCDs 240V electrocutions have obviously decreased.
Open Circuit Voltage Cut Outs on welders have made it safer, but can easily be bypassed on the ones I saw.
What I am saying is that in relation to the number of shocks, the number of injuries is low.
Now if we take line workers. The number of electric shocks to the number of injuries is high.
I never quite made it to engineer level.
Couldnt be bothered with the last 6 months of study.
But I have worked in lots of different industries.
Im making comparisons on all types of electric shocks.
And depending on which industry you work in, some places will have automatic hospitalisation for 12 hours with 12 port ECG.
Others no policy and some with variations.
Just in general interest yel. I worked with an engineer who was on the AS3000 comittee. From up Newcastle way.

I do get your point Rob, just it is hard to get it across to the masses that there is no such thing as a safe electric shock! And without a doubt, the act of welding with an AC MMAW (stick welder) with no HRD on it is probably the scenario where the chance of recieving an electric shock is the highest of all normal working situations. The dangerous voltage is there, ready to get you. There is no insulated buckets, no insulated gloves. Especially at home in the shed, there is no backup. You get 70mA from hand to hand where it isn't a simple brush and approaching 50% of the time your heart will enter fibrillation. Human body with dry hands is about 2000Ohms across the arms, that's 35mA at 70V. Add minor perspiration and you will see less than 1000Ohms, that's 70mA. It is easy to see why it is so dangerous.

The Engineer from up here you knew who was on EL1 I most likely know. HIESN (Hunter Industry Electrical Safety Network) has involvement from a huge amount of electrical people acoss the Hunter region.

Klomp, that old machine can be used with relative safety, as long as you make sure the leads and electrode holder are not damaged and that you use it in the shed wearing dry leather gloves. Always turn it off before changing the electrode. Only ever use it on an RCD protected circuit as with any appliance. Being old it may have primary side issues, and if it fails you want the RCD to protect you from the mains supply if you touch the frame of the thing. Check the supply lead and plug too, might be worth getting an eleco mate to test it is OK before using.

[Covert]

Ok, excuse my welding ignorance but what do you mean by make sure you use it in the shed?

[yel327]

Don't use it outside on moist concrete or wet grass, or in the sun where you'll sweat more. Try to make the place you are welding as dry and cool as possible and set up your workpiece such that the return/work clamp is as close to the weld location as possible and such that you don't come in contact with the thing you are welding.

[Rockoz]

My fondest memories were sitting inside a car on a stinking hot day, sweating profusely, welding a roll cage.

Came up with a technique for changing electrodes that didnt buzz me.

Didnt help when after a tricky run I put the helmet up and electrode down to have a look.

Still have the scar on my leg where the electrode burnt in.

Burn and shock at same time.

Was beer time after that.

 

Cant remember his last name. But first name is Frank. He is a rather unforgettable character.

Edited by Rockoz, 03 December 2013 - 03:47 PM.