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HJGTS 4door Monaro? or Not

Started by Indy Orange , Feb 19 2014 09:43 PM

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#276 myss427

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 08:27 AM

The Camaro was not allowed to run rear disks ( which were factory) and the engine was handicaped from what they came out with standard.

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#277 Dr Terry

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 11:14 AM

The Camaro was not allowed to run rear disks ( which were factory) and the engine was handicaped from what they came out with standard.

My understanding was that the rear discs were a factory option, i.e. rear drums were standard. As a result the minimum number of these cars in the country at the time only had drums, very few if any had the rear disc option. Not enough cars to homologate.

How was the Camaro's engine 'handicapped' ? From 1980 onwards there were no more 'freedoms' as there were in 77-79. In other words Falcon, Commodores, A9Xs (if any) & any other car had there available modifications only on the engine that came in that model. No more 4V GT motors in Falcons, no more L34 motors in Holdens.

The Commodores that ran that year, had small valve heads & I think that was the case in 1981 also. It wasn't until Brock had his heads homologated into the VH that he had good power. The VC Brocky was never allowed to race at Bathurst in the form that he sold it.

Dr Terry

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#278 _LXSS350_

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 12:40 PM

Except for a few exceptional times there was much more to winning Bathurst than simply being the best. Bathurst required an enormous amount of luck (ask any team of the period). Kevin Bartlett has many times discussed the battle they had with CAMS over the rear discs, which was how they raced in the usa.

Well before the CDT Gemini got run off the track, Forbes and Bartlett had long pleaded that the big car needs brakes to compete and that this was a safety issue. It is why after the accident everyone couldn't understand why CAMS had been so stubborn. It was extremely clear he was running out of brakes in the sprint races (ATC) let alone what would be needed at the much higher speed and harder on brakes Mountain. He certainly was fast enough hence he grabbed pole (or at least the front row) on many occasions inc the Mountain so the old girl certainly had the mumbo and handling, it was down to luck and tyres but those ill fated brakes took away a win over the 1000kms.

None of that means he would have won or got on the podium but these types of decisions was yet another of the many variables ......... that made this yearly event A MUST WATCH.

Arguments on the maybe's about bad luck in Motor Racing especially Bathurst is a waste of time.

It is what the results show.

Bathurst always provided the unknown but imo that was its unbelievable appeal. I miss it a hell of a lot as they have totally destroyed our motoring history by even suggesting that this real racing has anything to do with this new NASCAR like rubbish.

Edited by LXSS350, 12 March 2014 - 12:50 PM.

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#279 yel327

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 03:09 PM

But it was hobbled by being forced to run rear drums. Remember what happened to the hatchbacks once they were hindered the same.....

Love Bob's ZL1. They even changed the rules for 1972 to make him run a 350. So he promptly ran an LT1 and still beat all comers!

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#280 Dr Terry

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 03:47 PM

But it was hobbled by being forced to run rear drums. Remember what happened to the hatchbacks once they were hindered the same.....

But mySS427 said the Camaro's ENGINE was handicapped, but how ?

How & when were the hatchbacks (I assume you mean LX Toranas) "hindered the same" ?

Dr Terry

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#281 _LXSS350_

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 04:04 PM

After 79 they took away the rear discs, rear spoiler and bonnet scoop from the torana. Grice was still running around in the hatch in 1980 .He was still causing panel damage. Gricy coming thru straight thru anything in the way. Wayne Gardner anyone.

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#282 yel327

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 04:06 PM

Yes, afaik LX Hatchbacks had to run rear drums and lost their rear spoiler if you ran one in 1980. I think Grice used one for a while, but gave up due to the rear drums.

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#283 _LXSS350_

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 04:12 PM

Just looking Bartlett ended up a clear 2nd in ATC championship in 1980 missing points in two rounds and having 52 points while Brock won the championship on 79 points, he missed out on any points in one round.

Not bad for team Forbes, Bartlett with all the issues he had in the season with overheating drums and yet he still won Sandown and Oran Park rounds.

I notice Grice didn't run a front spoiler on the hatch photos I just saw from 1980. I thought he ran one but no brake ducts. I know he had brake issues because of the new Cams rules. I am sure CAMS just had no idea how to handle making the cars even. Funny look at the GT cars with the enormous variety yet look at the gaps and speed from first to last. Sometime it works as it should.

Edited by LXSS350, 12 March 2014 - 04:21 PM.

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#284 yel327

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 04:16 PM

I think they made him retrofit the 1974/5-ish sheetmetal too for some odd reason.

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#285 _LXSS350_

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 04:39 PM

But mySS427 said the Camaro's ENGINE was handicapped, but how ?

How & when were the hatchbacks (I assume you mean LX Toranas) "hindered the same" ?

Dr Terry

They where not allowed to run the big valve cylinder hi-flow heads that the Camaro was using in their usa touring car races. It was a good 55-60Hp loss vs what was allowed in the USA. Trying to find the 1979 CAM import model rules as they changed stuff at will and it was hard enough for competitors at the time to keep a handle on.

I think they made him retrofit the 1974/5-ish sheetmetal too for some odd reason.

I have the whole thing straight out of the rulebook somewhere.

Yes it was like going back to an SL with a 5litre nothing was allowed almost. Remember they kept fiddling as the dunnydore was new and we where getting a wider variety of cars and divisions, hell we had volvo so it was a bit of a lottery on the rules. They always want the new cars being the fastest, hypothetically imagine the stink had the A9X won in 1980. Had it been allowed in full 1979 race trim it would have cleaned up but wouldn't have been fair. Really it should have been just the engine restriction to the dunnydore spec motor but that seems too logical for cams.

Edited by LXSS350, 12 March 2014 - 04:52 PM.

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#286 _LXSS350_

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 05:26 PM

Couple of Grice 1980 pictures

Symmons Plains and Calder (crash)

Also the full specs (weight etc) of the VN dunny Group A which was the best factory power from the plastic motor as far as I have been able to find.

Attached Files

grice2.jpg 274.88K 0 downloads
grice1.jpg 346.26K 1 downloads
vngp2.jpg 226.01K 1 downloads

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#287 _ChaosWeaver_

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 06:35 PM

3 years on for the Comaro by 1982, and surly all cars were under the same rules. Sure some rules suit some makes better than other's (like being able to run 4 wheel drive) but that over weight Import wasn't even in the race after lap 1... so make all the excuses you want.... it got flogged three years running by our Farm Built Australian Family Car........

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#288 Dr Terry

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 09:42 PM

As I said earlier they no longer allowed the L34 engines in A9X, or 4V GT motors in Falcons & by the sound of it, any 'special' cylinder heads used on the Chev in the US racing. You had to run the cars as they are sold & homologated in Australia.

The quickest Torana (as we said earlier) would have been the late HJ,or early LX pre-ADR27A 308 & it had rear drums, so that's what you had to run. If you wanted to rear an A9X rear end with discs you had to base your engine on the ADR27A version.

Dr Terry

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#289 _LXSS350_

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 02:28 AM

But it was hobbled by being forced to run rear drums. Remember what happened to the hatchbacks once they were hindered the same.....

Love Bob's ZL1. They even changed the rules for 1972 to make him run a 350. So he promptly ran an LT1 and still beat all comers!

Not many more famous muscle cars than the ZL1. What a weapon, its little wonder he did so well over the few years it was eligible. So much history its amazing how much you forget and how many things you took for granted or missed.

Talking LT1 I see in 1973 that Bob fronted up in the 1st round at Symmons Plains in an XU-1, yet in the second round at Calder he raced the Camaro and defeated Moffat in the GTHO after telling CAMS that they had met the 25 identical/equivalent Camaro model import rule that would allow the Camaro to be eligible for competition in 1973. Cams certainly changed the numbers around and looking at what was to come with the RX7, BMW, Bluebird, Mustang, Sierra it was obvious that CAMS wanted more than just a two horse race that the rules had favoured.

To be honest I think it saved the ATCC and Bathurst and made it interesting and unpredictable. I was like every other biased one-eyed GMH supporter and ultimately wanted a Dunny to win, but I didn't like it when it was one way traffic or the vast majority of the field was mostly Holden.

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#290 _outer control_

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 07:32 AM

Not many more famous muscle cars than the ZL1. What a weapon, its little wonder he did so well over the few years it was eligible. So much history its amazing how much you forget and how many things you took for granted or missed.

Talking LT1 I see in 1973 that Bob fronted up in the 1st round at Symmons Plains in an XU-1, yet in the second round at Calder he raced the Camaro and defeated Moffat in the GTHO after telling CAMS that they had met the 25 identical/equivalent Camaro model import rule that would allow the Camaro to be eligible for competition in 1973. Cams certainly changed the numbers around and looking at what was to come with the RX7, BMW, Bluebird, Mustang, Sierra it was obvious that CAMS wanted more than just a two horse race that the rules had favoured.

To be honest I think it saved the ATCC and Bathurst and made it interesting and unpredictable. I was like every other biased one-eyed GMH supporter and ultimately wanted a Dunny to win, but I didn't like it when it was one way traffic or the vast majority of the field was mostly Holden.

Been looking at Daewoo forum and you have,nt found it yet try google

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#291 _LXSS350_

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 02:53 PM

Been looking at Daewoo forum and you have,nt found it yet try google

LOL .... Daewoo ..... that's hitting a little low Wayne I love plastic engines, its what Holden stuck in the engine bay of all my Toranas.

I have not seen Daewoo but boy the new 145Hp 2litre N/A front wheel drive Hyundai I30 SR (1250kg) doing 7-7sec to 100kph and in doing so makes it quicker than the L34 :wtf: certainly does make you question if Korean muscle cars are re writing the history and level it takes for entry into Australia's version of a muscle car. LOL
:stirpot:

Thankfully they buried the old plastic engineering disaster and we can tap into GM's newest all aluminium powerhouses. Even out of the box the new 3.6l V6's are pushing the 4437lb giant overweight Caddys into 13.5 @ 105mph, 0-60mph in 5.2sec, 0-100mph in 12.5sec. Hell the N/A base 6.2l Corvette is now out of the box doing 12.2@117mph, 0-60mph in 3.9sec, 0-100mph in 8.7sec with a top speed of 190Mph not bad for $52k starting price.

Still for my list of true muscle cars even 1960's muscle cars like the ZL1 stand up well in the go dept with the very best of 2014.

:stirpot:

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#292 _outer control_

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 03:01 PM

LOL .... Daewoo ..... that's hitting a little low Wayne I love plastic engines, its what Holden stuck in the engine bay of all my Toranas.

I have not seen Daewoo but boy the new 145Hp 2litre N/A front wheel drive Hyundai I30 SR (1250kg) doing 7-7sec to 100kph and in doing so makes it quicker than the L34 certainly does make you question if Korean muscle cars are re writing the history and level it takes for entry into Australia's version of a muscle car. LOL

Thankfully they buried the old plastic engineering disaster and we can tap into GM's newest all aluminium powerhouses. Even out of the box the new 3.6l V6's are pushing the 4437lb giant overweight Caddys into 13.5 @ 105mph, 0-60mph in 5.2sec, 0-100mph in 12.5sec. Hell the N/A base 6.2l Corvette is now out of the box doing 12.2@117mph, 0-60mph in 3.9sec, 0-100mph in 8.7sec with a top speed of 190Mph not bad for $52k starting price.

Still for my list of true muscle cars even 1960's muscle cars like the ZL1 stand up well in the go dept with the very best of 2014.

F18,s are quicker even the F111,s of 60,s quicker than the best rice burner of today

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#293 Shiney005

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 04:48 PM

Anything with a Monaro badge is a Monaro. If it has a 308, then it's a Muscle Car !!

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#294 yel327

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 06:49 PM

Here are some proper Muscle Cars!

https://www.youtube....h?v=O66k_4cXYEU

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#295 yel327

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 06:54 PM

More:

https://www.youtube....h?v=zxJt_cM4G4k

https://www.youtube....h?v=WKY-qJMXVl8

You can't get ZL1's or L88's real cheap, but some of this stuff you can buy two or three of for the price of a PhaseIII or an A9X!

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#296 _ChaosWeaver_

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 07:50 PM

Yeah not bad Yel, but we can do that with 6 cylinders ......................................... and geared for Circuit Racing :3gears:

Edited by ChaosWeaver, 13 March 2014 - 07:51 PM.

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#297 yel327

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 08:44 PM

Far from stock though!

And probably 500kg lighter than some of those!

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#298 _ChaosWeaver_

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 08:59 PM

Yeah Yel, maybe .... but it looks just as stock as that Corvette sounds... I am probably wrong, and Drag Race guys would know for sure...... but i doubt a Heavy car with around 350 RWHP could pull 11's.... That horse Power & weight is about the same (give or take a few HP's ) as an 300KW Commodore, and the Commodore would be somewhere in the 14's...... so I also doubt that Vette is standard.... Anyway nice to see some 6 cylinder Muscle lol............... Just having some fun Yel............ there all GM, so i'm happy either way.............