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HJGTS 4door Monaro? or Not


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#151 _LXSS350_

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 02:45 PM

They spent an enormous amount of 1960's dollars building the Holden V8 plant. They would be crazy suicidal to want the chev racing even in a holden chassis. The key is they where never ever never going to put the HQ HJ HX or HZ on the race track with the new 308.

 

Lets build our brand new Australian V8 and we will continue to race with Chev engines !!!! That sounds like a good plan.

 

The HG 350 with Colin Bond at the helm had won almost everything from tarmac to dirt rallys but in Sept 71 when Bond took the baby XU-1 out on a dirt rally and was faster it was obvious the small nimble torana had an advantage in the corners. It was like Bathurst thank god for the rain the big Frauds vs the baby XU-1, it was like watching the A9X's go past the Celica (first racecam). No way could they go down conrod that quick but with rain and corners it gave them a chance. Take a good look at Big Kev in the Camaro when he was on his lid. Look at how quick he ripped up the mountain no one had a chance but CAMS gave him rear drum brakes (that slowed him down).

 

The runout of 350 chevs in the Hq where never going to go onto the race track. HQ racing was decades later the HQ was lucky to make it around a street corner without scraping its sill panels. The 308 was lucky to pull the skin off a rice pudding why put it in a large car and go racing when you have a better power to weight and handling baby car (XU-1)

 

Seriously they never considered racing them the HQ ran from 15th July 1971 -1974

 

Come on guys lets be serious look at what is in the showrooms.

 

Weight advantage. Cams gave the Frauds an extra 100kg or so, it was a penalty because of the power advantage they obviously had. Now before someone mentions oh it was 105kgs or 90kgs I am averaging as the rules changed so not so lets not be 100% pedantic about racing rules on march 23 1971 vs rules oct 23 1972.

 

Guys there is so many things that you either don't remember or have missed. The racing rules changed just like when they didn't have to put in the L34 bits into the road A9X to race the A9X with the L34 motor.


Edited by LXSS350, 04 March 2014 - 02:49 PM.


#152 Dr Terry

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 03:30 PM

They spent an enormous amount of 1960's dollars building the Holden V8 plant. They would be crazy suicidal to want the chev racing even in a holden chassis. The key is they where never ever never going to put the HQ HJ HX or HZ on the race track with the new 308.

 

Lets build our brand new Australian V8 and we will continue to race with Chev engines !!!! That sounds like a good plan.

 

The HG 350 with Colin Bond at the helm had won almost everything from tarmac to dirt rallys but in Sept 71 when Bond took the baby XU-1 out on a dirt rally and was faster it was obvious the small nimble torana had an advantage in the corners. It was like Bathurst thank god for the rain the big Frauds vs the baby XU-1, it was like watching the A9X's go past the Celica (first racecam). No way could they go down conrod that quick but with rain and corners it gave them a chance. Take a good look at Big Kev in the Camaro when he was on his lid. Look at how quick he ripped up the mountain no one had a chance but CAMS gave him rear drum brakes (that slowed him down).

 

The runout of 350 chevs in the Hq where never going to go onto the race track. HQ racing was decades later the HQ was lucky to make it around a street corner without scraping its sill panels. The 308 was lucky to pull the skin off a rice pudding why put it in a large car and go racing when you have a better power to weight and handling baby car (XU-1)

 

Seriously they never considered racing them the HQ ran from 15th July 1971 -1974

 

Come on guys lets be serious look at what is in the showrooms.

 

Weight advantage. Cams gave the Frauds an extra 100kg or so, it was a penalty because of the power advantage they obviously had. Now before someone mentions oh it was 105kgs or 90kgs I am averaging as the rules changed so not so lets not be 100% pedantic about racing rules on march 23 1971 vs rules oct 23 1972.

 

Guys there is so many things that you either don't remember or have missed. The racing rules changed just like when they didn't have to put in the L34 bits into the road A9X to race the A9X with the L34 motor.

Your version of history is not correct on a few pertinent points.

 

1. I'm not 100% certain, but I don't believe that HDT (with Bond driving or anyone else) ever competed in an HG GTS 350. By that time the XU-1 was up & running.

 

2. Harry defected from Ford to Holden in mid 1969 just before the Sandown race that year. He knew the strengths & weaknesses of the upcoming Ford model. He knew it was heavy, so it would be hard on brakes & tyres & the other item than many forget is the location & weight of the 36 gallon (163.65 litre !!) fuel tank. It was merciless on tyres when it was full, hanging that far out over the rear axle like that.

 

3. Harry had made up his mind by late 1969 after a few races with the HT GTS 350, that the lighter Torana was the way to go. It would be much easier on both tyres & brakes & also you weren't entering an all-out horsepower race with the opposition.

 

4. The XU-1 was not that much down on performance, compared to the Ford. It was great in the rain but in the dry over longer distances it was better than you might think. The 1970 & 71 Bathurst were lost more due to breakages than outright performance. I seem to remember the HDT Toranas leading many of the Fords in those years.

 

5. Because of the anti-pollution laws in the US at the time, the imported Chev motors were gradually being neutered. If GM-H were going to race an HQ with a Chev in it, which was never the intent, they would've had to build a special batch of motors for 1971/72 Series Production. Nothing off the shelf would've been suitable. By that time all the Yanks had left were smogged BBCs & 302 Trans Am type motors. Ford did well to hang on to the 1970 Cleveland for a couple of years & develop here in Australia.

 

Dr Terry



#153 _LXSS350_

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 06:51 PM

You are probably right DR Terry it was in my head it was the HG but it must have been the HT GTS that I am confusing with the HG. The HT was still racing well into 1970 and that is the car that Bond was cleaning up in.

 

I kept thinking 1969 was the HT's last year.

 

The HG was released from 26 July 1970 , the GTR XU-1 was from 19th August 1970

 

Below is from wiki.

 

The HT Monaro GTS350 was successful in Series Production racing. The Holden Dealer Team was formed in 1969 by long time Ford Works Team boss Harry Firth with the team using the GTS350 in competition. The HDT entered three Monaros in the 1969 Hardie-Ferodo 500 the lead car driven by Colin Bond and Tony Roberts winning from 1968 winners Bruce McPhee and Barry Mulholland who had switched to driving a Ford XW Falcon GTHO. Coming home third in the Dealer Team's 3rd Monaro was Des West and Bathurst rookie Peter Brock.

In January 1970, Bond and Roberts would win the Rothmans 12 Hour Series Production race at Surfers Paradise driving their HDT Holden Monaro.

 

The nimble 6-cylinder Torana GTR XU-1 debuted in late 1970 and in 1971 Bond began racking up an impressive list of race and rally titles in his Torana. He secured the Manufacturer's Championship for Holden by winning 3 out of 5 rounds, including the Sandown 250 enduro in his XU-1. He also won the Australian Rally Championship and the Southern Cross Rally, along with the South Pacific Touring Series that year.

 

 

The XU-1's where significantly slower per lap in the dry (4 secs or so) and 5sec slower than Moffat in practice.The Frauds pulled so much quicker up the hill and came down it faster. It was the twisty bits and under brakes that gave back some of the gains to the baby toranas.

 

In 1971 Moffat took pole with 2m38.9s and the fastest XU-1 was Brocks car with a 2m46.3.  Moffat led from flag to flag with Bond finishing 4th and Brock coming in 6th with some problems.

 

Holden Heaven's

 

1970 Bathurst Practice: The fastest Torana was the HDT car of Colin Bond with a best lap of  2:54s which put him in fourth spot on the grid with Alan Moffat taking pole some 5 seconds quicker. During the practice sessions many of the Falcons suffered engine problems and the Torana's were running reliably so the feeling was high that the Falcons could breakdown during the running and allow the reliable cars in!


1970 Bathurst Race day: And they're off with Bond in hot pursuit of Moffat up the hill, over the top and Bond is sitting on Moffat's exhaust, then down Conrod Straight where the big Falcon could stretch it's legs until the end where the big car took some stopping and Bond dived in front under brakes. Going along the front straight the crowd gave a huge cheer of approval to the little Torana, the dice between Bond and Moffat went on for 5 laps until Moffat regained the lead and wasn't headed. The Torana's with Bond and Brock were 2nd and 3rd for quite a while but eventually succumbed to mechanical problems and dashed any hope of a HDT Torana being on the Podium but the privateer entry of Don Holland took third outright and a class win. In fact five privately entered XU-1's were in the top ten, third, sixth, seventh, ninth, and tenth outright plus the HDT all women pairing of Cole/Bennett taking 13th outright, this showed that the six cylinder 186ci Torana was close to the 351ci Falcon's but needed a bit more work to become a superior package! It turned out that the mechanical problems with HDT cars were a manufacturer fault with the valves, this also affected some private entries as well.

 

1971 Bathurst

The Bathurst race wasn't kind on the HDT and saw Moffat on pole with 2m38.9s and the fastest XU-1 was Brocks car with a 2m46.3.  Moffat led from flag to flag with Bond finishing 4th and Brock coming in 6th with some problems.

 

 

http://holden.itgo.com/gtrxu1.html

 

No doubt the Frauds had many issues that effected their win/loose ratio, and we can argue till we are blue in the face about what if and why, how, if only this was different. But our Red team also had reliability and unlucky stories with the xu-1's, the plastic engines, the brakes the list is endless etc I think the other issue is our Red team had the deck stacked at times as Holden where the KINGS OF AUSTRALIA the easy market leader and one look at the sheer numbers on the mountain tells you a bit of the story of why the results worked as they did. Not that I am wanting one win to go to the Blue team. Hell I cheered and cracked another beer for the rock (i am joking DJ)

 

Pollution gear doesn't effect race motors as they don't have to comply with Australian road rules and regulations. Two very different subjects road versions vs race versions and the rules that need to be complied with.

 

Dr Terry you are a plastic motor supporter (I hate the things) would it make sense to you if Holden would have raced with a chev engine in the HQ once the new V8 plant was producing?

 

To me its argumentation for the sake of it. Its fully understandable why Holden used the XU-1 as a stop gap till the March 1974 LH Torana. They either used the baby Torana or waited for the LH and don't race. The only other current model option to the baby torana was the HQ which we know was never considered.


Edited by LXSS350, 04 March 2014 - 06:56 PM.


#154 Dr Terry

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 07:11 PM

I've raced & streeted numerous Holden V8s as well as SBC & BBC & they all have their weaknesses & strengths, yes I am a fan of all 3.

 

I think the later EFI version with the improved heads is a great engine, better in many ways than the TPI version of the SBC of the same era  which is probably a fairly direct comparison.

 

Anti-pollution gear DOES affect a race engine depending on what the homologation rules state. You are better off starting off with a no-smog hi-comp big-port engine & then working from there. Could you image if Ford & Holden had to base their 76-80 race engines on their ADR27A street engines. Look what happened to Brock in 1980.

 

On your subject of GM-H "owning the market" in the early 70s, it was dwindling by then. They owned the market in the late 50s, at one point commanding over 50% of total sales with one car-line (the FC). By the mid-60s, VW, Mini, Falcon & Valiant were gaining traction, so by '68 it started slipping under 40%. By the time the Japs arrived, they really started to struggle. Even though it took until 1982 for Ford to overtake Holden in total sales, the Falcon was outselling the Holden by 1974/75. The HZ & Commodore stemmed that tide.

 

Dr Terry



#155 yel327

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 07:16 PM

For those interested, this is only 2 x pages, but many more pages of cool stuff on these cars in the same AMC issue (issue 51). I apologise for the upside down 2nd page but only way I could do it.

Attached File  HG 350 1.pdf   762.84K   16 downloads

 

 

 



Attached File  HG 350 2.pdf   812.13K   9 downloads



#156 _LXSS350_

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 10:11 PM

I dug out an old Wheels Mag from 1978.

They where trying to find the Fastest Australian Car on sale in 78.

 

Cars of Interest:

 

The HX 5litre GTS Monaro

The 5 litre SS Torana.

 

The Torana was also consistent, its three runs sending up 116mph each time. That's 186kph. We where quite disappointed by this figure, particularly since the Torana came standard with a tall 2:78:1 diff and the engine was only pulling 4700rpm when it went through our radar trap.

Both the speedo and tach showed themselves to be benders of the facts, since the tach showed 5250rpm (actually 4700rpm) and the speedo had been way past the 200kph mark and off the clock. It was at least 20kph fast at top speed.

We said it was discrepancies like these which caused such folklore to grow up around some cars performance levels.

There where any number of 130 mph V8 Torana owners about, and these findings won't do much to dispel the claims.

Those guys had seen it on the speedo!   -------------- Wheels Magazine 1978 Fastest Australian Car



Wheels Magazine 1978 Fastest Australian Car

 

post-8224-0-51224700-1331978034.jpg

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#157 350mick

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 10:26 PM

What's the difference in the hj HX and Hz fire walls?

#158 _Lazarus_

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 10:29 PM

Cable clutch and HX - HZ have a round hole with a grommet for the wiring harness whereas HJ has a square plug and separate engine bay harness.



#159 _LXSS350_

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 10:44 PM

This was the Wheels (and re-done in Sports Car World) review car that had many issues from inconsistent brake lock-ups, their timing gear failed, engine was missing at 5500rpm etc.

 

The HG was released from 26 July 1970

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#160 _LXSS350_

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 10:48 PM

Next



Final HG GTS350 Wheels

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#161 _LS1 Taxi_

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 10:50 PM

frOck you're hard headed!

#162 Indy Orange

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 10:53 PM

Interesting read on the SS 5litre and the HXGTS ,thanks for posting.



#163 _imj411_

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 12:47 AM

yes but that SS was a auto and it even say how much the pollution gear hurt the Holdens performance much more than the Fords and I think it was even a very green car aswell and with 3. 08 diff gears it still would have done a low 16 and 190 not bad for a smog auto. cheers Aaron.

#164 _LXSS350_

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 05:31 AM

They are all autos for direct apples to apples speed comparisons.

They are factory STANDARD config to see who had the power to push it to the fastest top speed.

 

FWIW so you can compare here is the Wheels (non Monaro) HZ GTS and Fat Fraud GXL  test (4 man speed comparison) and just for pre-pollution the LH SLR5000 Original Sports Car World Magazine 1974 numbers.

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  • Attached File  hz.jpg   363.74K   0 downloads
  • Attached File  slr.jpg   372.48K   1 downloads


#165 yel327

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 05:57 AM

The one you want to find the tests on is the early (release) LX SLR5000 or SS 5.0L. If there was a muscle car amongst LH-LX outside of L34 that is the car.



#166 _outer control_

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 06:32 AM

I think today,s cars are a lot more uniform in performance than cars years ago. Back in 74 i had a 253 torana that went like the proverbial #hit off a shoval and even on the dyno it performed unreal. No extractors free 2in exhaust standard cam holley 2 barrell it was putting the same hp to the back wheels as a strong 308 . A friend who owned BP Marleston at the time i remember one Saturday i did him a favor so he said hang around until he closed and he spent hours experimenting and found 8bhp to the back wheels increase. But i remember driving a similar spec car and it would not pull the skin off a rice pudding as doughy as hell. What i am trying to say is some went better than others and Holden even though they enjoyed the win on Sunday buy on Monday criteria they never placed emphasis on power in road tests for fear of consumer backlash as for the majority of buyers a car just gets you from point A to B. Fraud on the other hand would have made sure all their test cars performed at a premium. When i had my 253 LH my boss bought a big 351 XB GS falcon 4 speed with 4WD,s and used to be most annoyed that my little 253 creamed his Fraud. A lot of road test vehicles may not have been properly run in and not up serviced up to scratch as just a company car or sometimes not even run in.



#167 Dr Terry

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 07:32 AM

I've been buying & reading motor magazines (Modern Motor, Wheels etc.) since 1966 & I found you need to take most of what they write with a grain of salt. These guys are not technicians or engineers or even mechanics, they're journalists FFS.

 

The peak demographic of buyers of these magazines is in the low 20s, & that's who they target.

 

The number of mistakes & straight-out  mis-reporting is legendary, but once it's in print it's very difficult to refute.

 

In one of the posts above, they talk about the Hurst shifter in the HG GTS, WTF !!

 

Dr Terry



#168 _ChaosWeaver_

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 05:21 PM

Agree Dr Terry.......  Wheels is the same magazine that had the P76, Mitsubishi Sigma, and Ford Capri Convertible as car of the year....  Credibility Zero........

 

and going back to the 308 plastic topic........  didn't the 308 win 9 Bathurst races...  not a bad effort..  for a crap Australian Built Motor...


Edited by ChaosWeaver, 05 March 2014 - 05:24 PM.


#169 yel327

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 05:29 PM

308 won Bathurst eight times.

304 won three times at least. What year did the Holden V8 cease being used? Was the 1993 Perkins car still a 304?



#170 _ChaosWeaver_

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 06:35 PM

8 or 9........  who's counting ..........   :D



#171 _ChaosWeaver_

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 06:56 PM

They won't Rev........... they make no horsepower,  They arn't reliable........  what else wont they do........   :stirpot:

 



#172 _LXSS350_

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 07:42 PM

They won't Rev........... they make no horsepower,  They arn't reliable........  what else wont they do........  

 

 

 

They don't like oil in the sump and they don't like a stain free driveway to park in !!!!

 

:stirpot:  



#173 _LS1 Taxi_

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 07:43 PM

Wheels gave the Camira car of the year in 1982 did they not?    :deal:  :wtf:  :thebird:  :clap:  :spoton:  :tease:



#174 _LXSS350_

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 01:44 PM

1. I'm not 100% certain, but I don't believe that HDT (with Bond driving or anyone else) ever competed in an HG GTS 350. By that time the XU-1 was up & running.

 

 

Dr Terry you can be 100% certain that it didn't race it was just the HT GTS that was going around in 70,71,72. I looked at the racing history and they raced the HT GTS350 right into 1971 and some cars into 1972 (bypassing the 1970 changes/intro of the HG). From my memory of the HT-HG changes I don't think there was a major change, it was cosmetic grille, fender decals and snake stripes.

 

The change of production racing rules didn't start till 1973. Beechey kept his Monaro GTS350 running right till the end of 1972. Beechey in the Monaro GTS took out the 1970 Australian Touring Car championship with 33 points. Bond was still racing the HT and winning right to the last races before the XU-1 raced in 1970. But he was still winning and competitive in 1970 in the HT GTS350 winning big events like the Surfers 12hr. The Frauds where very fast no doubt and Harry new that.

 

Timeline

The HT GTS350 was released from 25 August 1969

The HG was released from 26 July 1970 ,

The GTR XU-1 was from 19th August 1970

 

Holden V8 Plant Commissioned: 7th June 1969

253cu: May 1969

308cu: Dec 1969

Fuel-Inj: 1988 (VL GPA SV)

 

Now while Bond won the Group E Lakeside 26/07/70 it was in the HT GTS350, but yet the same day at Lakeside Beechey also won the ATC round in his improved touring Monaro GTS.

 

Bond and the HDT as well as privateers where still doing Rallycross and Rallys in various HT GTS's right up to the XU-1 and initially alongside it.

 

Now one interesting point that came up when I took a look was the 253 in May 1969 got a 6mth jump on the 308 which really was not fitted to many HT's as it was right towards the end of the HT's model life. It was also noteworthy that in early 1969 when Harry Firth was terminated from Fraud that he initially only signed on for Rallys. Bagshaw must have done some fast talking with the setting up of HDT as Detroit ban (GM's) on racing meant it wasn't a straight set-up for Holden not to be involved in.

 

 

 

Bond_Monaro_1970_Graham_Ruckert.jpg

Description :
Colin Bond in the Holden Dealer Team entered Holden HT Monaro GTS350 at Lakeside International Raceway in July 1970. Bond was competing in the support race for Group E Series Production Touring Cars at the meeting, which featured Round 6 of the 1970 Australian Touring Car Championship
Date  26 July 1970
Source  Own work
Author  Graham-ruckert

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Edited by LXSS350, 06 March 2014 - 01:49 PM.


#175 yel327

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 04:20 PM

253 and 308 were released in HT at the same time. 308 was only in Brougham though.






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